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So has there been a coup in China?

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  • Posts: 266 [Deleted User]


    I know a fair few Chinese people who emigrated and their general view of China is just that they never trust the government to be anything other than authoritarian - assume nothing, distrust motives etc. They’re more just wary and weary of it and have no particular desire to live there again.

    I just hope the Russian experience might at least make some western interaction a bit more cautious. Europe in particular was far too optimistic about assuming Russia was in a path towards being a friendly neighbour and trade partner. The reality of it seems to be that the political culture there really does not share that worldview at all and was always going to see strongman authoritarianism - effectively a king who can deliver power and wealth, as far more important than any abstract notions of individualism, rights and democracy etc.

    I don’t think China will have that bellicose and imperial mentality. It’s far more isolationist and inward looking and seems to be always concerned about control and stability, except with Taiwan and Hong Kong Kong etc which are seen as old scores to settle and anomalies to be normalised, but the interactions with the liberal trade and democracy models abroad aren’t necessarily going to be what we might like to think they are.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    as far more important than any abstract notions of individualism, rights and democracy etc.

    I'd say you're being rather naïve about what western governments value in other countries. Look at the US for example. In spite of all the propaganda about promoting democracy, and freedom... a fair few of their allies are brutal autocratic systems, and have run intelligence operations/coups against democratic governments to ensure a "friendly" administration remains in power. France and Britain have done the exact same in Africa.

    At the end of the day, once all the posturing is done with, Western governments care about what they can get in return. Better trade agreements usually... and they'll deal with the devil to get them.



  • Posts: 266 [Deleted User]


    I’m not saying they’re not but I think there’s a very overly idealistic world view from the EU and smaller European countries that genuinely seem to believe everyone just wants to hug, kiss, trade and share open standards.

    They’re often just bounced around by the major powers, including the old ones within their membership at times.

    The energy crisis we are experiencing right now wouldn’t have happened if there had been a strategy and there really wasn’t any. It was a mixture of naivety, expediency and a sort of “ah sure it’ll be grand” mentality, ironically coming largely from Germany - a country that can get very tied into domestic political knots on NIMBYish type stuff, that while very different, isn’t entirely unfamiliar to an Irish electorate either…

    You’re seeing it though with the inability to critique Chinese purchases of key infrastructure. The unwillingness to accept that there might be genuine issues about Chinese telco gear, sure we are still lashing in the Huawei fibre to home gear, great stuff all together! Sure what would major international intelligence agencies know. It’s been fully audited by Eircom!

    A bit of pragmatism, strategic thinking and the precautionary principle wouldn’t necessarily be a terrible idea.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,903 ✭✭✭✭elperello



    Here is the definition for you

    As I said a chinese person living in China has no chance of opposing the CCP.

    They get up in the morning like you and me and look at the sky breath the air but they have no prospect of change without risking their freedom or even their life.

    Here's another old fashioned phrase that sums up their lot - Hobson's Choice, you can look up that one.



  • Posts: 266 [Deleted User]


    Speaking of the CCP, has the government here done anything about the Chinese police station on Capel Street in Dublin?

    Allegedly it’s just a typical, entirely normal police station - nothing to worry about at all, established in a foreign country to provide essential police services (lol) to the Chinese diaspora, some of whom likely moved here for a new life, with the hope of never needing to interact or see the Chinese police or authorities again. Nothing strange about the appearance of a police station at all

    I know there were questions raised about it a couple of weeks ago, but I’ve heard no more.

    It’s all a bit odd and I have my doubts that China would tolerate a Garda Station in Beijing, or even more provocative a London Met Police, NYPD or French Gendarmerie branch office..

    I doubt we’d tolerate a London Met Police or PSNI office tbh either. There’d uproar from many, yet this is just somehow … “meh sure we’ll look into it..”

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭EOQRTL




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Grand. And you could apply the exact same logic to changing American (or Irish, for that matter) society and governance. The average American would equally be unable to effect any real practical change.

    You're not applying your standards in a balanced fashion.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I’m not saying they’re not but I think there’s a very overly idealistic world view from the EU and smaller European countries that genuinely seem to believe everyone just wants to hug, kiss, trade and share open standards.

    There would never have been the need to create the EEC/EU if Europeans genuinely believed such to the case. The EU is a bloc to place Europeans on a relatively playing field with the US, China, or the range of associations/organisations that exist around the world.

    TBH I'd say that European nations tend to be more pragmatic about what the world is really like, and the need to compete against them.

    The energy crisis we are experiencing right now wouldn’t have happened if there had been a strategy and there really wasn’t any. It was a mixture of naivety, expediency and a sort of “ah sure it’ll be grand” mentality,

    It's the short term mentality that exists with all democratic systems, considering that parties only stay in power for 4ish years, so they rarely see the effects of their long-term strategies come into effect, or have to bear the consequences for their policies. Instead, everything is decidedly short-term. There's rarely any definite plan involved.. and the energy crisis was always going to happen eventually, the same with all crisis's because that's what happens in Western civilisations. We bounce from one crisis to the next.

    You’re seeing it though with the inability to critique Chinese purchases of key infrastructure.

    Nope, I'm seeing it through my Business degrees, and my having lived in China for 13 years. I'm perfectly capable of analysing China and discussing what's involved. The problem is that my views don't necessarily match with yours.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,903 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    But the average American or Irish person would not end up incarcerated or dead for trying to effect change.



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  • Posts: 266 [Deleted User]


    Let’s not get into duelling degrees. You seem to be assuming I’m basing my opinions on a whim.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2




  • Registered Users Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Tell that to Chelsea Manning.

    Locked up for exposing US war crimes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,890 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    That's the rub. Change is not easy, there's no great human system allowing any bright spark (or crank lol) to come up with a brainwave and then easily effect change to that system.

    It's bad enough being a sticky up nail anywhere and in any context without kind of horrors that likes of the govt. of China can bring to bear to hammer you flat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,890 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Manning's Chinese equivalent would still be in "reeducation"/"retraining" at best, possibly with family members and some acquaitances and colleagues. Or more likely a corpse in a pit somewhere!

    Discussion here is assuming you or anyone beyond the officials, (secret) police and those directly involved even knew their name and their story of course!



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I think people need to grow up a little bit about Chelsea Manning. If she had merely released curated evidence of war crimes and leaked it to a trustworthy media outlet that would have ethical obligations to make sure lives weren't put in danger by what was published, I'd have a bit more sympathy for her.

    She was an intelligence analyst that indiscriminately dumped half a million files related to army operations in Iraq destroying OPSEC and compromising the safety of people she worked with, as well as Iraqi partners. And hundreds of thousands of diplomatic cables. And all to an organisation that lets face it, had no scruples about working with the Russian state apparatus.

    As soon as she hit send, she had to know she was f*cked. She knew her OPSEC responsibilities and would have signed many documents acknowledging her obligation to secrecy.

    She had the option to do things the right way if she wanted to leak - but she elected to work with a Russian stooge organisation who didn't care who got harmed off the back of it. She was always going to have the book thrown at her.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    On a local and state level, the US is incredibly democratic. I've sat-in on county-level meetings where school district budgets get decided, local police chief is being raked over the coals over how they enforce traffic violations etc. Things get unwieldy when you get to the Federal level, but the US is dyed-in-the-wool democracy in action. What Alexis de Toqueville wrote about American democracy in the 19th century holds true today. It's absurdley democratic, to the point where they elect prosecutors and judges by popular ballot in many places. Which to an Irishman, Brit or Frenchman would seem absolutely barmy; but it's the will of the people.

    Practical change gets effected every day through the democratic process in the US. It doesn't always work for the best as it is dependant on the aggregate wisdom of the electors, but no one can say the people aren't consulted.

    There is no comparison between China and the US in this regard.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,874 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    And the US followed up and arrested all those involved in the war crimes she exposed?

    The Land of the Free and all that….



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    The US has indeed arrested and trialled and gaoled members of its armed forces that have conciously violated the laws of war in the past yes. Russia? Won't be holding my breath.

    The investigation found that the armed forces members in the video came to the consculsion that the people they were targetting were insurgents given the items they were carrying, even if they were mistaken. Until you're in a low-flying helicopter in wartime and see individuals that you reasonably suspect are carrying a SAM launcher, maybe it's best to hold your counsel and judgement.

    It's war, not a parlour guessing game. They f*cked up, but they weren't trying to kill civilians. And with the facts on display that even you have access to, that was a reasonable conclusion.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    FYI, even Assange in his review of the 'war crimes' videos concludes that the items the people were carrying may be RPGs, but he doesn't know. There were definately people with rifles in the video that were targetted.

    What Assange and others bellyache about is that there was no 'positive identification', i.e: that the US soldiers didn't get down out of their Apache and take the people for shisha and tea to establish who they were before opening fire. Having had a look back at the video for the first time in many years, the allegation of 'war crimes' is seriously puffed-up. The people shot look for all the world like insurgents with weapons. And I'm one who didn't agree with the Iraq war in the first instance.

    A lot of people got caught up in John Pilger nonsense around that time, and it doesn't appear to fade with time. If that was the most egregious evidence of 'war crimes' committed by the US out of the nearly 1 million items dumped by Manning, there doesn't appear to be much credible evidence of war crimes to be sustained.

    We're off topic now, and all because ye old Russian stronk front wants to desparately deflect from the topic of the thread - and want to convince everyone that the PRC / Russia (and insert autocratic country here) are just the same as the US. They aren't, there is no comparison in terms of transparency and democratic processes. Indeed, one jack-in-the-box is trying to convince that there is no such thing as democracy (clearly never having been exposed to an autocracy in his life and having had to live the consequences of one).



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And depending how a Chinese person went about it, neither would they. There are systems in place within Chinese society to advance and work within that very system. Chinese know those systems intimately.

    It works, in essence, the same there as it does here... and both here/there, the likelihood of effecting any change is very slight.

    I'm not duelling degrees. I responded to the point you raised, while you've deflected away from mine.

    There is no comparison between China and the US in this regard.

    In the situations you raised, I agree completely. In the situation that was put forward by the other poster and myself, I disagree.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Jesus..



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    Oh and that reminds me, does anybody remember Julian Assange?...I wonder is he dead or alive in Belmarsh dungeon or has he been shipped off to freedom land, the western governments and media are strangely quite about all that.

    I guess they forgot what with being so busy lecturing China and Iran etc about human rights.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Put as many emojis in there as you want. You're the one fellating autocrats the world over. I know where I stand and what my values are.

    Out of a million documents, the best the John Pligerites and Assange came up with was an Apache gunship wasting likely insurgants carrying AK47s in an active warzone. They didn't take out the staff of the local library let me tell you.

    If you have evidence of warcrimes, put it up.

    What a yawn.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    What's wrong CQD? the Putinist wellspring on Twitter a bit dry today? Cat got your tounge?



  • Posts: 266 [Deleted User]


    So basically, China does terrible things but ... what about ...

    Now let's not discuss China anymore.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    Yes they would if they tried to make real change.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    an Apache gunship wasting likely insurgants carrying AK47s in an active warzone

    Disingenuous whitewash there.

    'the casualties, all of whom were civilians, including two Reuters journalists.'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007,_Baghdad_airstrike



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