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Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

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13567…143

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    #62
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794945#Comment_119794945

    It does annoy me, but you or I won't end up in prison for it.

    And of course it will chill debate on these topics. How can anyone feel comfortable talking about the broader issues around this, or hosting these conversations when hate speech is broadly and loosely and rather arbitrarily defined and the threat of a custodial sentence hangs over them should they fall foul.

    For example, I doubt this place will host any conversations on the topic that even risk wandering into these categories - and who could blame them.



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    #63
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,411 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794946#Comment_119794946

    except now there is a possibility that objections and criticism could be met with credible threats of prosecution

    perhaps you should read the article before posting.

    Furthermore, the Bill also includes a general provision to protect freedom of expression which clarifies that a “communication” will not be taken to incite violence or hatred solely on the basis that it involves discussion or criticism of matters related to one of the listed protected characteristics.



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    #64
    20Wheel
    Registered Users Posts: 728 ✭✭✭20Wheel


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794965#Comment_119794965

    Ok. So then theyre intersex.

    Thats their sports category. Thats their terminology in medicine.

    Intersex league, so in a boxing match a woman doesnt get seriously injured.

    Putin is a dictator. Putin should face justice at the Hague. All good Russians should work to depose Putin. Russias war in Ukraine is illegal and morally wrong.



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    #65
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,996 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794969#Comment_119794969

    I doubt this place will host any conversations on the topic that even risk wandering into these categories - and who could blame them

    One can only hope, we are due the break, every second thread seems to be about trans people.

    Seriously, Imagine been that insecure about a minority of people who will have absolutely no tangible effect on your life?



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    #66
    ChickenDish
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭ChickenDish


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794965#Comment_119794965

    I stopped trying to get my head around all of that stuff ages ago, I simply practice the simple ideology - Dont be a dik



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    #67
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794976#Comment_119794976

    The question for people discussing and hosting debate on these issues is if this exception is strong enough for them to depend on.

    For many, the juice won't be worth the squeeze. It just won't be allowed to just be on the safe side. It will effectively self over police.



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    #68
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,411 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794990#Comment_119794990

    how is the legislation relevant to the host?



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    #69
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794878#Comment_119794878

    I can't tolerate a pronoun ? That's certainly news to me... 😅 people can pronoun themselves however... simply shouldn't expect everyone else to.

    (Hopefully that isn't considered by some as ate speech)



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    #70
    opinionated3
    Registered Users Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭opinionated3


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794835#Comment_119794835

    Never heard of him, and don't care either.

    Don't think I'm denying their existence either. Just happen to come down on the side of, say, Jordan Petersen. If a trans person stands in front of me, I'm going to be 100% polite to that person, as I would to anyone else. There will be no "hate speech" from me. But I draw the line at being told that my freedom of speech is being curtailed because I don't believe something to be factual.



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    #71
    growleaves
    Registered Users Posts: 7,849 ✭✭✭growleaves


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794976#Comment_119794976

    I did read that thanks.

    What I'm saying or trying to say, by using the term 'indefinable', is that the whole category of "hate speech" is to a large extent amorphous.

    In other words what's 'hateful' and what's criticism is very much up for interpretation.

    I'm not filled with confidence that this law will be applied judiciously given there is such a groundswell of leftists with commitments to trans ideology in this country who wish to shut down objections. They will be testing these laws to the limit.

    Didn't TENI (or someone?) want an RTE radio show censured for 'giving a platform to' (negative) discussion?

    That's the recent context in which this is happening, which our legislators are well aware of.



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    #72
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,411 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119795015#Comment_119795015

    I'm not aware of private citizens or organisations taking prosecutions. I could have sworn that was a job for the DPP. i wouldn't describe the DPP as containing a "groundswell" of leftists.



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    #73
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,607 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794989#Comment_119794989

    Jaysus that's some rant.



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    #74
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,294 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794936#Comment_119794936

    Ok, I'll keep this simple, once laws are on the statue books, they can be amended. So I'd imagine, without looking at it, it is all flowery language seemingly harmless, even the title itself, hate speech, who is gonna oppose hate speech laws right! But what else can be considered hate speech?

    You just have way more faith in Irish institutional power than I do, that is all.



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    #75
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users Posts: 9,007 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119795002#Comment_119795002

    Deliberately not respecting someone's pronoun choice is the very definition of not tolerating it!

    Go on, lets see you defend that kid in the school in Westmeath's use of pronouns to the death.

    😝



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    #76
    ChickenDish
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭ChickenDish


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794989#Comment_119794989

    Was wondering why we dont see AGS policing the roads anymore, sitting on their asses in the hate speech departments prosecuting people for simple non offensive opinions 😐️



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    #77
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,411 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119795043#Comment_119795043

    you misspelled scutter.



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    #78
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    what hate speech enforcement advocaters seek is an erosion of democratic principles, rights and the democratic ability to speak freely.

    Yes there are responsibilities that adjoin enshrined rights like free speech.. ie.. you cannot threaten or harass people being two examples.....

    But you CAN speak controversially, you CAN speak about your beliefs and you CAN even insult, or offend people from time to time.... that even happens on prime time ;)

    Hate speech advocaters just sail past on the agenda of trying to control certain life narratives.



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    #79
    TomTomTim
    Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119795049#Comment_119795049

    You just have way more faith in Irish institutional power than I do, that is all.

    Come on. They don't, no one on this thread does. Most of defenders here know exactly what's coming but it's simply something that they want. Half of the posters who support these laws, are renowned for looking for censorship on boards and often getting their way. They want the same power in wider society, and these laws will help them. Even the existence of these laws alone, will result to extreme censorship online purely based on the fear of the law, even if the law technically wouldn't apply.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




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    #80
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119795061#Comment_119795061

    It's really not :)

    Lots of things I don't agree with or respect but do tolerate. People too...



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    #81
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 23,202 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    I cant find the actual text of the bill. Oireachtas.ie updates are about 5 says behind so they're up to Oct 20th and the debate on this bill was yesterday I believe.

    I saw a draft version of the bill from a year ago but it's probable that it's not the final version so no point disappearing downthat rabbit hole.

    At best I can find a general description of what the bill contains

    https://www.irishlegal.com/articles/new-approach-to-hate-crime-will-not-require-motive-to-be-proved#

    Perhaps somebody could find the actual text of the bill so we can see what it actually says, or we could keep the ridiculous hypothetical bogeyman scenarios going...


    On a different note, countries that have hate speech laws already - are they now fascist hellholes where nobody can express free speech?

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



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    #82
    cezanne
    Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭cezanne


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119795043#Comment_119795043

    yes it is my opinion and you are welcome to yours too if you dare !! :)



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    #83
    cezanne
    Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭cezanne


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119795063#Comment_119795063

    True i know a person with no car tax or insurance for 3 years driving carefully all over ireland not a garda in sight last seen during early Covid asking you where you we going when you should have been locked in !! & the next scam hate speech paperwork ......



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    #84
    Ham_Sandwich
    Registered Users Posts: 296 ✭✭Ham_Sandwich


    dont be out shouting the odds and abusing people and you wont have any trouble



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    #85
    cezanne
    Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭cezanne


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119795125#Comment_119795125

    Yes be a mouse with no opinion and scuttle back in to your mouse hole eats crisps & other heavily processed **** & watch netflix absorb all the virtue signalling in their content and eventually die because you had no GP to go to when you got ill !!



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    #86
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,294 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Just look at the amount of topics that can't be discussed publicly.

    People in a lot of jobs are already forced to keep their mouths shut about political topics that have no place in the workspace in the first place.

    Something very 1984 about all this!! Whats more disturbing is versions of this are being pushed through Parliments across the developed world almost simultaneously.

    The only thing all reasonable people can agree on is that it is normally the truth that gets censored!!



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    #87
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users Posts: 9,007 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119795088#Comment_119795088

    A minute ago you were willing to give your life to defend things you disagree with. That’s some climb-down.



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    #88
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119795184#Comment_119795184

    I just had a look back to a minute ago… never said that :)



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    #89
    Fandymo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794657#Comment_119794657

    I’d imagine calling someone racist would be considered hate speech.



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    #90
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794733#Comment_119794733

    I don't see any evidence of anything being 'vetted'. And to be fair Ireland's score is Ok all things considered. The other thing I seldom if ever see in these reports is how much of the 'hate' componenet comes from within the so called lgbqt etc. etc. community. It's always in he context of the so called 'hetero-normative culture. The lgbt...community is not monolithic in their atitudes! In my experience bisexuality was never held in high regard amongst the gay people I know. It was either seen as some form of denialism or even 'greedy'. Then you have to address the controversy with the LGB alliance and Stonewall. These contradidctions and the controversies around trans issues need to be discussed freely to find a resolution. Not litigated on twitter or suppressed with legislation pretending to 'protect' minorities. I am not saying that is what this legislation will do. But that is the danger...



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    #91
    Backstreet Moyes
    Registered Users Posts: 8,775 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    We basically have an open border policy from countries where rape, murder and violence is much worse than Ireland.

    We have guards who don't have the bodies to deal with our current population and we are bringing more people from countries where violence is much higher than here.

    Now we are going to have them wasting time dealing with people who get offended by something.

    When the people cheering these on are physically hurt, house burgled or a victim of sexual assault etc and they are waiting hours for garda assistance they might realise how stupid an idea this is.



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