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BoJo banished - Liz Truss down. Is Rishi next for the toaster? **threadbans in OP**

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,635 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    This is a crucial point. He's the wealthiest man to ever have sat in the House of Commons. Your average working class Indian has as much in common with him as I do with Jacob Rees-Mogg. We see Tories playing the race card relentlessly so they can dodge questions about inequality and class.

    As for being among the least racist societies on earth, I'll believe that when I see proof.

    Remember this?

    That was the same day Batwick & Spen MP Jo Cox was murdered.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,492 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Mmm. This isn't helping, Cal. It's kind of hard to avoid thinking that much of the hysteria fomented in the UK about "illegal immigration" is basically grounded in racism, and/or is exploited by racists. If this is the Tories' strategy for success and you're telling us you think it might work, that's not exactly dispelling any notion that racism is a significant factor in UK politics.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,401 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    There does seem to be a path in the UK for Asian, black, ethnic people to reach high political office. Now maybe that path involves being quite wealthy and going to the correct school etc, which obviously isn't ideal. But the path does at least exist. And the next time Labour is the governing party there will clearly be quite a mix in their cabinet as well, and afaik these will be minorities that are from a more working class background.

    This does seem in contrast to the politics of the likes of France, Italy, Germany where the pen-pics and background of the current cabinet is a sea of white faces. Perhaps Germany can be given a pass as they didn't have a big empire so immigration has only recently started. France and Italy, despite their large immigrant populations seem to have minimal representation at government level.

    Spain actually seems somewhat similar to the UK, as children of (South/Central America) immigrants appear able to progress in politics.



  • Registered Users Posts: 625 ✭✭✭Cal4567


    Yes, amongst the Tory faithful, it will work. What the Tories need now and there won't be an election for at least 2 years despite all the noises to the contrary, is a period of stability. Will they get that, though? At best they can end up with a hung parliament, which I see as the most likely outcome, despite the polls now. Labour losing those sets in Scotland have been hard to replicate in England. Those Scottish Labour seats used to be used to be as sure as Tory seats in the shires.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,635 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    There's a glaring flaw in your argument though. Actually stopping illegal migration means creating sensible legal paths towards asylum and the Tories will never do that. It's too politically toxic for the racist element of their base.

    Even if they were to, there's a bigger problem. Bringing illegal migration to zero robs them of a useful scapegoat, more necessary than ever since the EU lost its utility to them. Luckily for them, the UK's racists are more than happy to settle for tough words time and time again.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,646 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Do you mean like calling someone a pillarbox because of the clothes they wear? Or like calling someone a bank robber because of the clothes they wear? Or like using calling gay men "bum boys"? etc.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Absolute nonsense.

    First of all, a looney LBC caller and a handful of 85-year olds who cling to imperial ideas of Britishness does not an argument make when you're smearing an entire country as racist to the core. If anything, the ridiculous fringe examples you cite are proof positive that the UK could not possibly be more tolerant. I mean, even Sunak making it to the top isn't good enough for you. There'll always, always, always be fringe examples of dislike or discomfort in every single walk of life. It's almost human nature. It doesn't make it right, but it doesn't mean you and others can hijack those tiny numbers of fringe exceptions to justify the broad and extreme position that there's an inherent racist core to the UK that is manifesting in some bizarre "backlash" against Sunak.

    It's beyond ridiculous at this stage.

    Racism is actually fuelled by the rhetoric that you and others deploy. By trying to find some almost "hidden agenda" in absolutely everyone's motives, it will inevitably cause more division. It's a combination of conspiracy theory and pushing the far-left ideas of intersectionalism and other similar nonsense that seeks to divide at every possible level.

    I'm unsure how that's germane to the discussion at play?



  • Registered Users Posts: 625 ✭✭✭Cal4567


    I can see the UK taking on an Aussie points system at some point and that will be the aim to control immigration.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    But who are the "Tory Faithful" though?

    Are they not pretty much fully encompassed by the current polling support?

    If there are voters that might be swayed by aggressive action on Immigration , who are they supporting in all the current polling?

    For there to be any chance of a "hung parliament" the Tories would need to get the gap well down in to single digits.

    2 years is a long time, but it's hard to see a pathway for the Tories to do that , all the major elements are against them in terms of Economic outlook etc.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Actually, I was told at the time, in 2016, that even having the temerity to discuss the idea of controlling borders / Australian-style points system was itself racist.

    That's how extreme things are on certain flanks of the left wing. Utterly bizarre.

    Braverman is doing the right thing. It would be a dereliction of duty for her not to proceed as planned. It was also a core part of the 2019 manifesto that elevated the Conservative party to the 80-seat majority they enjoyed.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,635 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,635 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Firstly , they already have this and that only works for those people coming to the country legally seeking a Visa.

    Secondly , what does that have to do with the proposed illegal actions planned by the UK Government on Asylum seekers?

    I don't have any problem with a country controlling illegal immigration and refusing to accept people that simply economic migrants - The Irish system could do with being infinitely more effective and efficient than it is today.

    However , the system and process used needs to be both legal and respectful to the people involved. This is where the UK proposals fall down , they are neither respectful or remotely legal.

    Asylum seekers are another category entirely and cannot ever be treated the same as an illegal immigrant or even a regular visa seeker.

    Defenders of the "Rwanda plans" try to make it seem that anyone that disagrees with them are somehow "lovers of illegal immigration" and that they somehow wish to flood the country with illegal immigrants for some nefarious reason.

    That is not the case at all - Just do it properly, respectfully and legally and no one will have any issues.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,215 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    I strongly suspect that the last two Home Secretaries have been POC/children of immigrants specifically to counter the charge of racism, e.g. 'How can it be racist if the daughter of an immigrant is the one implementing it? They speak from experience', etc.

    Patel seemed a bit more subtle but Braverman's 'dream' comments leave me with little doubt that she is playing up for the base and is parroting comments that she has seen beneath articles in right-wing media. You can do your job and outline how you will do it but to take such delight in something with such horrendous consequences is truly disturbing.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Braverman no-show for labours urgent question on conditions at the Manston refugees centre. Good start!



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,635 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The problem with culture war politics is that it's great when your base is nice, cozy and well fed. Not so good when you've an election on the way and the apotheosis of your party's intelligentsia is to hide your racism behind a particularly stupid non-white moron.

    People want answers, stability and a plan for the future. More Faragist racism isn't a vote winner when fuel poverty looms.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,232 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    While I too would question that Sunak has had to "repeatedly justify why he should be selected over obviously less-qualified white candidates", there's no doubt that he was passed over by the Conservative Party for a much less qualified white candidate in his bid for the leadership even though he appeared, on the face of it, to be the better choice.

    Whether that was because he was too brown for a lot of party members to stomach or whether he wasn't as deeply involved with shadowy right wing Tufton St. think tanks and willing to do their dirty work is a different matter.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's abundantly clear which side is obsessed with Sunak's race - as well as that of Braverman and Patel - and it isn't from the conservative right.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,215 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    Says the poster who called him the Asian Tony Blair.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,635 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Jesus, when I go to Wikipedia to get the percentages for Sunak v Truss:

    What a sh*tshow.

    Sunak took 42% of the vote so either his ethnicity wasn't an issue for those who voted for him or they held their noses while they voted for either the most Thatcherite candidate. Since over 57% of the vote went to the Truss trainwreck, it's hard to see anything other than racism at play. She's patently a moron and this only becomes more and more clear as one listens to her speak.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Truss' policy platform was tailored more toward the conservative membership. That's why she hoovered up a greater percentage of votes.

    Put another way, even if Sunak was white, they still would have opted for Truss on policy grounds alone.

    Let's not forget that Badenoch was among the favourites during the leadership contest, and that too was down to the conservative policies she was espousing.

    Let's also not forget that many conservative members couldn't forgive Sunak for what they perceived was a backstab against Johnson. Nobody likes what they perceive to be a backstabber.

    So not everything is about race.

    The same is true incidentally of the migrant crisis. Shouting racist every five minutes doesn't an answer make when you consider the fact that, even if every migrant crossing the channel were white, the same political problem would remain - namely, how do we stop the boats / drownings. Indeed, even if every migrant was white, my position wouldn't change. Nor would Sunak's, nor the conservative membership.

    You need to stop obsessing about race where the attribute doesn't come into it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,100 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    He's Richy Sunak and that's going to be his Achilles Heel yet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,215 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    I think Truss was chosen by the Tory membership because she was seen as easy to control and willing to do whatever it takes to get in and stay there. She said all the things the base wanted to hear whereas Sunak was somewhat sensible and pragmatic.

    Her attempted budget was evidence that she'd be popular among the high-earning Tory members but it was a disaster for real world economics. She lost control because non-Tory members complained and the PP realised they needed to be more subtle about advancing the interests of their membership.

    I wouldn't say race wasn't a factor, at least for some voters, but on the whole, I think Truss got in because of the above. Everyone could see she was atrocious but party members saw a useful idiot.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,635 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I don't think so. He'll be done in because he has no qualifications for the role he has at all. Remember, he only got to be chancellor because Sajid Javid wouldn't let Dominic Cummings choose his advisors. Sunak was there solely because he was happy to be Cummings' cipher.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,100 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Well his Richy status, rapid rise to top of the greasy pole and lack of experience/ qualifications are all rolled into one I would think.

    If he's wise, he'll lean heavily on a wide range of advice from senior civil servants and more experienced politicians. But if he's vainglorious like Johnson or Truss, it's down the tubes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,549 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    In Britain, status and wealth seems to trump everything. It would be perfectly possible for there to be a black, Chinese or Muslim PM, just as long as he or she has a posh accent, has plenty of money and went to the right private schools.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,635 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I think that's likely. He's already backed down from allowing fracking and Hunt is about as sensible a chancellor as we're likely to see, depressing a thought though that is.

    Johnson's problem was his laziness while Truss was simply an imbecile. Sunak at least appears competent and the issues currently plaguing the UK economy are likely to partially subside by the next election. He has the Treasury advisors to rely upon. I can't see him doing anything too bold until he wins and election which he'll be deferring for as long as possible.

    Rees-Mogg is fabulously wealthy and has openly expressed a desire for rape victims to be made to carry the rapists' children to term and he's somehow still around.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭yagan


    It was obvious that Truss was had zilch behind the headlights whereas if good old fashioned old money protection was at the fore of members minds they would have gone for Sunak.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    I don't know that I'd agree that the issues impacting the UK economy are going to reduce over the next two years at all.

    The general Global economic issues are with us for the next year I would say, and the UK will be impacted harder and for longer than the rest of Europe and elsewhere.

    And then we have Brexit and that will continue to drag them down and if they are forced to actually implement the agreements it will impact them even more.

    I suspect that Sunak will try to be "all things to all people" by allowing people like Braverman to sabre rattle on immigration but also being very vanilla on the Economy following Hunts lead.

    The end result is that no one will be happy.

    For me in terms of the next Election, Sunak is working on a continuum of a worst case scenario of a 250 seat loss and a best case of a 100 seat loss.

    The sooner the Election , the larger the loss.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭one man clappin




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