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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Well it certainly not the zero emissions that greens attempt to paint it as. But no matter.

    My problem with green energy generation is that it is intermittent, unreliable and is all based on green hopium where when asked the cost greens run for the hills.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,382 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Sure everyone knows the benefits of nuclear power are weapons production and disrupting the unions. Coal plants were vulnerable to miners strikes as well as power workers strikes. We bought the company that runs the Northern Ireland grid so the Ulster Workers Council can't pull the plug again.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,382 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Slow steaming yields a 40% reduction in fuel usage. Though you'll need 20% more ships as it's slower.

    There are trains from China to Europe now. So no need for ships to travel as fast. The relatively low volume of expensive stuff can go overland.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah it's shockin how the rise of fossil fuel prices has had such a negative impact on economies.

    Could be a lot worse though




  • Registered Users Posts: 82,456 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    His napkin math is ridiculous.

    Right at the start he absurdly claims the height of each turbine is 200 m (average is 70 m) and the spacing between each turbine is 1km

    The only way that makes any sense if the rotor diameter itself was 200 m, and the installation was using an estimated spacing of 5+ rotor diameters. He incorrectly cites @2:00 that the spacing is 5x the height. He's already off to a bad start.

    The absurdities only continue from there, to wildly bloat the idea that wind needs to replace 100% of the Netherlands need (that's not under proposal anywhere).

    There's also the inflation of 43.8 million KwH up to 44 kwH, he does this inflation again when calculating 2,420 windmills. By his own math of 106 Bn over 44 million, that's 2409 oversized massive windmills spaced 1 km apart, not 2420.

    Then, he calculates the space for 2,500 windmills, to be 50 km sq.

    He then arbitrarily claims the capacity factor for a wind turbine is 25%. The average is 36% in the USA with maximums up to 56% and minimums of 24%.

    Then he inflates the number of windmills to ten thousand, an area of 100 km sq. This is continuing to compound errors.

    He then decides the only way to store all that energy is hydrogen, even though theres no grid in the world with such a setup, nor is one being proposed. He doesn't offer up any calculations for the energy requirements or losses in this section, he just hopes you're roped in already.

    And this head scratching line:

    If we can use the generated power directly 25% of the time, we have to compensate for the remaining 2/3rds lost. This leaves about 40% so the required number of turbines rises to more than 24 thousand... just over 150 km sq

    Which is all complete nonsense. As he's gone on the rounding up keeps happening and now we have 24,420 turbines across a 150 km sq area which if I haven't lost my marbles here, is assuming even more spacing between turbines.

    I'm sure it does wonders for the drive-bys who believe this crap. 665 likes in 30k views and 430 subscribers. Wow.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Capacity factors of the entire wind fleet in the EU and UK were 24% on average, a 3% decrease on 2020. Capacity factors for onshore were 23% (down from 25% in 2020), while for offshore they fell significantly from 42% to 35% over 2021. (PAGE 15)

    Wind turbine developers have exhausted best locations for onshore wind generation. The turbines are getting taller and more prominent, they have to to compensate for less favorable locations since wind speed increases with increasing height above the ground.

    Typical heights for modern commercial turbines in Ireland now are now in the region of 156m. In terms of rotor diameter, large modern wind turbines have rotor diameters ranging up to 130 meters while smaller machines (around 30 meters) are typical in developing countries. In recent years hub heights of 140 meters have become the standard at forest sites in Germany, for a total turbine height (to the rotor tip) of 200 meters. iwea

    In generation the turbines need to be at least 7 rotor diameters away from each other and there are also restrictions on how near they can be to residential properties in some jurisdictions.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,456 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    In that case yes it's fair to make the case Netherlands cannot site the necessary space for a 100% wind based grid. *

    IIRC there was an effort some years ago by EU members to build a grand solar site in the Saharan Desert and have it transmitted to the European grid, but I think the planning fell through because it was traditional thermosolar plants and lens-concentrating on molten salt stuff, which has in recent years been significantly outpaced by advancements in the economics of photovoltaics.

    Ah, here

    The principal claim here is that in the Saharan, 1 km sq gets you 6 GWh per day. Compare to the 4 turbines in the napkin math above...

    *Which by the way, I think a 200 m rotor would produce a lot more than 5 MW as your one suggested each of these mega turbines did in his math ;) But I do think it's fair to say it would be hard for wind to surpass solar by unit area, in the right places.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    It's shocking how climate policies drive lack of investment in fossil fuels discovery, development and taxation policies actually leads to supply constraints over time in particular markets, how actions of western politicians lead to destruction of supply (Libya, Venezuela) and the current restrictions on Russian supply scoring a policy own goal for Germany in particular (EnergieWende)

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't find that shocking, I find it quite logical actually



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    Smearing shite on the nearest work of art shortly I go view da cor.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,456 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Where was that mentioned in the quote being replied to there



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Wait until we start implementing these kinds of ideas as policy

    Reparations...


    Can't post links but it's wef website titled "Loss and Damage: Why climate reparations are top of the agenda at COP27"

    Oct 27, 2022



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl



    totally not a grift. Lets see who gets hit with the bill.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    There is the link?

    The gathering is expected to focus on whether wealthy nations that have emitted most of the carbon dioxide historically fuelling climate change should compensate for 'loss and damage' to developing countries that have not contributed significantly to the problem and are the least prepared for its impacts.

    The wording of this is interesting - on the face of it China wouldn't be regarded as a wealthy country and will avoid paying. Colour me shocked.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl




  • Registered Users Posts: 82,456 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    TBF, now I’m interested to know the energy per capita between China and USA etc.

    China 3940 kWh (https://www.worlddata.info/asia/china/energy-consumption.php)

    USA 11,757 kWh (https://www.worlddata.info/america/usa/energy-consumption.php)

    Thats an interesting perspective. All those lattes, video games, Google searches, porn websites, crypto, etc. etc. etc.

    Even when you stack that against China being the worlds global manufacturing hub, it’s still dwarfed per capita..that’s a humbling statistic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    China:

    USA:

    The USA is a far cleaner generator of electricity than China.

    But then again, these little facts don't matter to many in the green movement. They admire China's rule of law system and wish to emulate it in the west. The environmental issue really is just a front.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    posted this in another thread also here seems promising.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    What should be humbling for the green apologists on China is the statistics that for the first half of this year China approved an additional 15 gigawatts of of new coal-fired power capacity and another 30 million tonnes of coal-based iron-making capacity.

    But then despite all their save the planet rhetoric it doesn`t matter as long as they get their solar panels from the largest producers on the planet using the dirtiest fuel source to produce them, while only generating 2.8% of their own electricity from them.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭ps200306


    The words "could potentially revolutionise" trigger my hype sensors. Been reading stuff like that about battery technology for 20 years. Usually means it will die on the laboratory bench and never be heard of again. The abstract from Nature doesn't exactly sound like a claim of multiple factors of improvement, even allowing for "scientist speak" ...

    Realizing an efficient electron transfer process in the oxygen evolution reaction by modifying the electronic states around the Fermi level is crucial in developing high-performing and robust electrocatalysts. Typically, electron transfer proceeds solely through either a metal redox chemistry (an adsorbate evolution mechanism (AEM), with metal bands around the Fermi level) or an oxygen redox chemistry (a lattice oxygen oxidation mechanism (LOM), with oxygen bands around the Fermi level), without the concurrent occurrence of both metal and oxygen redox chemistries in the same electron transfer pathway. Here we report an electron transfer mechanism that involves a switchable metal and oxygen redox chemistry in nickel-oxyhydroxide-based materials with light as the trigger. In contrast to the traditional AEM and LOM, the proposed light-triggered coupled oxygen evolution mechanism requires the unit cell to undergo reversible geometric conversion between octahedron (NiO6) and square planar (NiO4) to achieve electronic states (around the Fermi level) with alternative metal and oxygen characters throughout the oxygen evolution process. Utilizing this electron transfer pathway can bypass the potential limiting steps, that is, oxygen–oxygen bonding in AEM and deprotonation in LOM1. As a result, the electrocatalysts that operate through this route show superior activity compared with previously reported electrocatalysts. Thus, it is expected that the proposed light-triggered coupled oxygen evolution mechanism adds a layer of understanding to the oxygen evolution research scene.




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    Oh I know but posting it for balance It's probably up there with fusion atm. I hope for both but will not hold the old breath. I get accused of all sorts Just trying to point out I do listen to actual science even if it's hopium.

    melting ice we don't even know the thickness of not so much.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Oh my, someone needs to check their facts:

    "Moreover, hydrogen can potentially be used as a fuel. Long-touted as a sustainable fuel, hydrogen fuel produces no emissions as it burns upon reacting with oxygen -- no ignition is needed"

    That is wrong, if you mix the two you have a very explosive mixture, but you need an ignition source, otherwise anytime you vented H2 into the atmosphere it would burn, which thankfully isn't the case.

    Perhaps they were thinking of hydrazine.

    Also, there are emissions from burning hydrogen, other than water, if you use oxygen in air to provide the oxidant, as you also get quite a lot of NOX forming due to the atmosphere being around 70% nitrogen and 20% oxygen and the very high flame temperature.

    Also, it's not easy to store, unfortunately.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,456 ✭✭✭✭Overheal



    with the per capita energy consumption being 3X in the US, i think that cleanliness might be offset just a tad. Coal being 21% of 12000 kWh vs 62% of 4,000 kWH… per person, 2520 kWH of coal per capita vs 2,480 kWH

    by a slim margin, Americans per capita burn more coal than China. Then we have another 38% of natural gas use. Even with such a high coal mix, the disparity broken down per capita is too vast



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    You are really barking up the wrong tree.

    https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/use-of-energy/

    The per capita approach suggests that consumers are responsible for all the electrical use in a country, when that is simply not true.

    China's economy is far smaller than is generally suggested. A study of satellite images of night time lights suggests autocrasies inflate their GDP figures by about 35%. China didn't even release made up GDP figures this year. So the US consumption figures in relation to the scale of their economic activity is probably very reasonable. Looking at CO2 as if it's all down to consumers is just incredibly misleading.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,456 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    This isn’t about singling out consumers though this is about whole nation, per capita being not only consumers but industries transport everything. The US in this regard is producing more Carbon per capita. transportation to work at the industries that pay the consumer and produce goods for it etc. There’s nothing misleading about it. The US has a much cleaner energy mix, but we do not practice reasonable conservation of use, we expect power capacity to grow with our increasing demand for advanced electronics, and the production of ever more advanced products and services, and now too we plan to repatriate silicon manufacturing, extremely energy intensive processes. Power is also consumed in the form of the giant shyte vehicles everyone drives, the shyte 18 wheelers and shyte inefficient American locomotives Etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    I agree but I would take anything China reports as complete bunkum. Remember they had to stop industrial production for the Olympics to stop pollution. That's even before you get into the ghost cities created.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,456 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Yea do consider the bunkum of China but I assume it’s hard to cook the books on the energy stats, the world bank etc. and all breathing down your neck and expecting to reconcile Chinas claims against eg. How much oil they know they are importing etc. - a lot of the US math is estimated based on sales.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    Ofc all true just My gut tells me Despotic regimes get off lightly on the old reporting as long as the money flows. I just cant see how 1.4 billion people use less than the USA.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 82,456 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I can. Compare rural China to rural America. Lots of shanty homes and places with no heating or cooling or electricity. A lot of farming is done by hand and for subsistence. In the US it’s a very different story, the rurals drive everywhere by truck, everywhere is electrified, and climate controlled, the farms are heavy industrial, etc



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