Couple living together for 30 years, she is dying and her daughters want 100% of house

DownByTheGarden · 29-10-2022 1:09pm #1

Background to this is that my uncle has been living with his partner for 30 years. They are both in their 80s. We found out she has less than 1 year to live. She had a brain hemorrhage also so is not at all with it. Cant even communicate. We went down to the house when we heard and my brother overheard one of the daughters saying to our uncle not to worry, that they would help him find somewhere else to live when they sell the house. They bought the house in her name only when they bought it because they were advised this for god knows what reasons by god knows who. he cant remember. I think it was something to do with the fact her husband was dead and my aunt was still alive.

Now my wife knows one of the daughters very well and she has been privvy to conversations that indicate that they want 100% of the house and were thinking of giving my uncle 20k and sending him on his way and that was very generous of them.

Here is where it gets complicated. My uncle is seperated from his wife about 40 years. They have no contact. They have 2 sons who live in the UK that they hardly see. The sons dont want any of the house at all. They have lives abroad and will not fight over these kind of things. So it falls to me to advise my uncle what he needs to do. He thinks these girls want to go 4 ways on the house and he moves out, but he wont find anywhere to live on the money he gets.

So I went down and had a quick chat with him today and am still trying to convince him to go see a solicitor. He doesnt trust them after the separation 40 years ago. He is not aware of any will. I suspect the daughters have organized a will to give them the property at some point myself, but my uncle has never seen or been told of one.

So i wonder if in the event i get him to a solicitor what can i explain to him are reasonable outcomes to expect.

What I want for him is something like one of these.

a) - He can live in the house until he dies and then they can have 100% of it after that. (Thats what I think is the minimum he should want)

A friend has suggested these options to me below but honestly at least option a would at least give him somethnig where he wouldnt be out on the street.

b) - He gets 50% of the house they bought together, it gets sold and the 3 daughters get the other 50%.

So the complications are.

House in her name only. They never had a mortgage, but possibly had one on their previous house together in her name only again. He cant remember. This is actually the 2nd house they have bought and lived in together. The rented an apartment for a couple of years before that.

They are not married. Her husband died 40 years ago. They were happily married at the time. My uncle seperated from his wife of 10 years at the time 40 years ago. They never divorced, just stopped talking to each other. My uncle and his partner have lived together for 30 years. They met about 35 years ago.

No will from him but possibly a will from her giving the daughters the house.

And he has been her sole carer for the last 3 years since she had her accident.

Their bank accounts are joint accounts. They both are on the pension and i think he gets carers allowance, but he only applied for it last year when my brother marched him down to apply for it. He really wont do anything for himself and will get walked all over.

I would be grateful for any input on what outcome he could expect if the daughters decided they wanted all of the house.

I just dont want to see him out on the street in his old age.

And I will keep trying to get him to go to a solicitor, but he really distrusts solicitors so I need something to tell him of what he can expect will happen once I get him to a solicitor.

Thanks Guys.

kirk. · 29-10-2022 1:17pm

Go to a solicitor yourself

DownByTheGarden · 29-10-2022 1:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119808192#Comment_119808192

I was thinking that but he told me not to without his say so. He wants to think about it. Im just trying to get some ideas how this might play out so I can explain to him better why he needs a solicitor. Ive never heard of anything so complicated myself and thing that someone who has lived in a house together with their partner should be entitled to stay living there, but who knows.

kaymin · 29-10-2022 1:23pm

I'd have thought he is entitled to the house regardless of the wishes of the daughters or any will indicating something different. Option (a) is the very very minimum he should be seeking. Daughters sound like awful human beings and I wouldn't be letting them get away with their plans out of principle let alone to make sure your uncle is looked after. Perhaps you can speak with a solicitor on his behalf for advice without him having to deal with them.

kirk. · 29-10-2022 1:23pm

It doesn't sound complicated at all

I imagine someone will know the law on this should be quite straightforward

Senature · 29-10-2022 1:26pm

Encourage him to go to a solicitor asap. From the sounds of it, he is in an extremely vulnerable position.

For example, if he is deemed to "inherit" from his partner, the tax bill could be very significant as they never married.

The daughters could put him under a lot of pressure to leave after their mother dies, regardless of any prior agreement, or they might move in.

If he sits on his hands he could pay a very high price for that.

kaymin · 29-10-2022 1:30pm

Your uncle should seek a court order under this provision (I'm not a solicitor btw so you should seek legal advice):

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/act/24/section/173/enacted/en/html#sec173

Also, get free legal advice from FLAC:

Free Legal Advice Centre

85/86 Upper Dorset Street

Dublin 1

D01 P9Y3

Ireland

Tel: +353 (0)1 906 1010

Homepage: http://www.flac.ie

Contact Form: https://www.flac.ie/contact/

Casati · 29-10-2022 1:35pm

Agree talk to a solicitor immediately, but also have a read of this yourself, your uncle may have some protection under Shared Home Protection. If your Uncle is still married to his first wife and not yet divorced he should be checking to see if he has any interest in his wife's assets

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/act/24/enacted/en/html

29-10-2022 1:48pm

Quite simply, your Uncle needs to stop burying his head in the sand, avoiding the inevitable, and consult with a solicitor. This won't be settled without one.

Even if the house was mortgage free and in his partner's name only, after 30 years he will be considered a qualified cohabitant of his partner, and he has certain rights to the property.

I'm not sure if the inks are working, but if not look up "Rights of Cohabitating Couples" and the "Redress Scheme for Cohabitating Couples" on Citizens Information.

No judge is going to put a man in his eighties out of the home he's lived in for thirty years.

Claw Hammer · 29-10-2022 1:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119808296#Comment_119808296

A judge could well do it. Judges don't make the law, just apply it.

The man is married to someone else, no mention of a divorce, only a separation. To get relief as a co-habitant he must show a relationship of dependency. It is not stated where the purchase money came from. If the uncle put money into the house he is entitled to a proportionate share of the house.

29-10-2022 2:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119808331#Comment_119808331

Two old age pensioners in their eighties, and he on Carer's Allowance for his partner for the last couple of years, (which he will lose when she passes).

I don't think he will have an issue showing they were both equally dependant on each other.

hopefultrainee · 30-10-2022 9:47am

Not legal advice.

He would have rights under the Act listed above-civil partners and cohabitants... and potentially a legal right share as per the succession Act 1965. The civil partners Act amended the Succession Act 1965 section 111 to:

81.— The Act of 1965 is amended by inserting the following section after section 111:

“Right of surviving civil partner.

111A.— (1) If the testator leaves a civil partner and no children, the civil partner shall have a right to one-half of the estate.

(2) Subject to section 117(3A), if the testator leaves a civil partner and children, the civil partner shall have a right to one-third of the estate.”.

It would be dependent on if they were registered civil partners- if not he may have a claim as a cohabitant but its dependent on their circumstances.

Further if he can prove he gave money for the purchase of the house he would have an equitable claim under a resulting trust but again ask a solicitor about this.

Lastly appropriation for a surviving spouse may be an option where your uncle would be able to live in the house until his death but a solicitor should be able to weigh up the circumstances- if he has proof of purchase or any form of agreement would benefit his situation. (consider any date/formalities of a will if it is produced as perhaps it was not made when she was of sound mind- again a solicitor would be able to properly advise on the facts)

Best of luck.

This is not legal advice.

xeresod · 30-10-2022 10:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119811257#Comment_119811257

Civil partnerships were for same-sex couples only, and OP is clear that they're male/female so ignore this post as it's completely wrong!!!

Have a look at links Loueze gave in post 9 for the relevant information instead!

L1011 · 30-10-2022 10:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119811288#Comment_119811288

The cohabitation elements of the legislation applied to all couples

hopefultrainee · 31-10-2022 11:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119811288#Comment_119811288

It's not completely wrong.

I clearly stated: ''It would be dependent on if they were registered civil partners- if not he may have a claim as a cohabitant but its dependent on their circumstances.''

Please read the information accurately as there are valid points in my comment regarding equitable interests and resulting trusts if the uncle can prove he paid towards the property.

I do not like you assuming people's gender identity in this day and age. Thus tried to cover all areas concisely that may be considerations and stated it is dependent on their circumstances and to seek legal advice.

It would appear the redress scheme as stated previously would be most applicable but my comment was only to complement considerations for the OP to inquire about via a legal representative as I do think if he contributed to the purchase he would have an equitable interest which is not wrong.

Again, best of luck to the OP.

DownByTheGarden · 01-11-2022 8:38am

Thanks guys for all the help.

I will have another word with him. Half the battle here is getting someone that old to just engage with the system. I never knew you had to register that you were partners with someone of the opposite sex tbh. Regarding gender identity, I think its obvious from their ages when they are referred to he and she they are a man and a woman, in case anyone was confused.

Claw Hammer · 01-11-2022 2:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119808429#Comment_119808429

There can only be one financially dependent on the other.

01-11-2022 3:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119819620#Comment_119819620

Very few people would have been in a relationship for 30 years and shared a home together for even longer than that would be completely 100% financially independant of their partner.

The OP needs to get his uncle to see a solicitor, that's the bottom line.

xeresod · 01-11-2022 3:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119818098#Comment_119818098

There is no registration for opposite sex partners, except marriage!

Pre marriage equality, same-sex partners could register in a civil partnership and out of that came rights for cohabiting couples, which gave all unmarried couples (opposite-sex & same-sex couples) certain rights after living together for a number of years but no registration is needed for that.

Have a look at the links Loueze gave in post 9 - there's rights to inheritance and exemptions from CAT which would seem to be applicable to your uncle.

You said he's reluctant to talk to a solicitor, he will need to do that at some point (sooner rather than later) but see if you can get him to contact his local Citizens Information Centre at least to start with - you need to convince him that he has to start engaging on the issue before her daughters put him on the street!

AnRothar · 02-11-2022 9:29am

My uncle is seperated from his wife about 40 years. They have no contact. They have 2 sons who live in the UK that they hardly see.

From the op it seems that the uncle legally may be still married and have eligible dependents.

This may complicate things.

the uncle needs to see a solicitor.

DownByTheGarden · 02-11-2022 11:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119822659#Comment_119822659

He is still married, though himself and my aunt havent spoken in nearly 40 years. Wouldnt even communicate when they each asked for a divorce. First he asked and she wouldnt answer. Then a few years later she asked and he wouldnt answer. They both never followed up.

NiceFella · 02-11-2022 12:35pm

My god, money really does bring out the worst in people. Very sorry OP that your uncle has to deal with this crap at his age.

The only advice I can give is see a solicitor yourself, get his opinion and then pass on to your uncle and lay out reality of situation to him. I would not like to see an 80 year old looking for somewhere to live in this climate.

TooTired123 · 02-11-2022 9:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119823466#Comment_119823466

We dont know the financial situation of the adult children involved, so I don’t think it’s wise to judge as regards motive for pursuing their mothers estate.

Complicated domestic situations only get more complicated as time goes by. I’d imagine that some bar room lawyer told them to put the house in her name only to avoid his estranged wife from making a claim on it should anything happen to him.

Thats why he didn’t look for a divorce either, he was happy enough to let sleeping dogs lie instead of issuing divorce proceedings and risking his ex making a claim for maintenance for herself. Everyone assumes the man will die first, I don’t know why.

Now all the chickens are coming home to roost. The only thing they can do is bluntly tell uncle that he’s staring at homelessness in his last years if he doesn’t at least consult with a solicitors office. I doubt he’ll listen though.

coylemj · 03-11-2022 5:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119823146#Comment_119823146

That is bad news. Because the simplest solution as I saw it was for the man to divorce his wife and marry the woman he has lived with for the past 30 years. That would give him the right to inherit at least 1/3 of her estate. But there are two obstacles (1) his estranged wife refuses to engage with him on any topic, including a possible divorce and (2) the woman he's living with appears to be no longer compos mentis and is therefore legally unable to enter into a marriage.

Couple living together for 30 years, she is dying and her daughters want 100% of house

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