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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Having viable options are a must, yes. Thankfully there has been increased investment into PT over the last few years, but if you're looking at the likes of rail, its coming from a place of decades of under-investment so has a long way to go.

    That being said, the shifting priorities towards sustainable modes means the %'s have already shifted towards PT & AT a lot more.

    There are few massive road projects left to do so this should see a lot more additional resources going to PT & AT over the next few years.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The IEA's World Energy Outlook 2022 report is out

    To say it doesn't look good for fossil fuels would be an understatement. Indeed they call out some of the FUD and misinformation directly (a lot of which can be seen on a daily basis in this very thread, so yeah I guess you could say this is their answer to some of the more conspiracy riddled boardsies)

    As the world faces this unprecedented energy shock and the other overlapping crises, we need to be clear on how we got here and where we need to go. The analysis in this Outlook is particularly important to shed light on these questions and to dispel some of the mistaken and misleading ideas that have arisen about this energy crisis.


    For example, there is a mistaken idea that this is somehow a clean energy crisis. That is simply not true. The world is struggling with too little clean energy, not too much. Faster clean energy transitions would have helped to moderate the impact of this crisis, and they represent the best way out of it. When people misleadingly blame climate and clean energy for today’s crisis, what they are doing – whether they mean to or not – is shifting attention away from the real cause: Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.


    Another mistaken idea is that today’s crisis is a huge setback for efforts to tackle climate change. The analysis in this Outlook shows that, in fact, this can be a historic turning point towards a cleaner and more secure energy system thanks to the unprecedented response from governments around the world, including the Inflation Reduction Act in the United States, the Fit for 55 package and REPowerEU in the European Union, Japan’s Green Transformation (GX) programme, Korea’s aim to increase the share of nuclear and renewables in its energy mix, and ambitious clean energy targets in China and India.

    Just looking at gas, as a result of Putins aggression, the switch away from it has been hugely accelerated by almost every impacted govt across the EU.

    One of the main aims is to reduce demand on gas supplies by improving building efficiencies and increasing the shares of wind & solar to replace it as a power generation source. In other areas LNG supplies, hydrogen etc will replace Russian supplies in the short term

    Hydrogen has also seen a massive boost due to Putin

    Momentum behind the global low‐emissions hydrogen sector has been given a major boost by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. By 2021 the sector was already converting more of its bulging project pipeline into investment decisions, and hydrogen‐focused companies were raising more money than ever before. With EU member states now aiming to reduce natural gas and oil demand by increasing low‐emissions hydrogen use, and higher formal targets in the United Kingdom and elsewhere, it seems likely that major projects around the world will start construction in the near term.


    Capital flows indicate where investors and companies see opportunities in the coming years. Two of the world’s largest electrolysers started operations in 2022. In China, the capacity of a captive electrolyser supplying a methanol and chemical plant was expanded fivefold to 150 MW. In Spain, a solar‐powered 20 MW electrolyser was commissioned at an existing fertiliser plant. Two large electrolyser projects received final investment decisions. First is a 260 MW electrolyser that aims to start supplying a refinery in China from 2023. Second is a 200 MW plant operating on wind power in the Netherlands, which is due to start in 2025, and is coupled with an existing refinery with high hydrogen demand. Overall, capital spending in 2021 on hydrogen electrolyser projects starting operation or under construction was around USD 1.5 billion, more than three‐times as much as in 2020. In each project, the investment case was supported by the simplicity of the value chain.


    The large pipeline of projects on which investment decisions are due to be taken in the near term depends on the scaling‐up of companies across the value chain. Investors have taken note and are directing money to companies all along the hydrogen value chain. The 33 “pure play” hydrogen companies tracked by the IEA have increased their capitalisation by around USD 20 billion since mid‐2020. Investors looking even further ahead allocated USD 700 million in 2021 of early stage venture capital to start‐ups that are developing hydrogen technologies, which is nearly five‐times the amount invested in 2020. This increase was driven by investor confidence in start‐ups that offer project development services, which reinforces the perception that projects will soon be built, and in innovative technologies for hydrogen end‐uses as well as for potential non‐electrolysis routes to low‐emissions hydrogen production, such as methane pyrolysis.

    In terms of global power generation, it looks like its all-in on renewables regardless of the scenario measured against (STEP, APS or NZE) with a global share in the range of 43% to 61% by 2030 and 65% to 88% by 2050

    This one page gives a nice summary of how the power generation mix is changing in terms of sources, whats going to be the main drivers of consumption growth and what additional capacity is going to look like




  • Registered Users Posts: 18,244 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    More spam.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,126 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    You post "Having viable options are a must, yes"

    We have established at this stage there are is no such thing as a single money tree, let alone forests full of them.

    So are these viable options just those deemed viable according to the bible of the green cult with no consideration given to economic and societal costs ?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Try rephrasing that into a logical question without the childish silliness and I'll take a stab at it



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    And completely out of date and redundant as of this year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 687 ✭✭✭Subzero3




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Given it was published 3 days ago and details the Ukraine war impacts, I'd love to know how you worked that one out lol



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    I got as far as the first part 8.4 2021. EU has replaced russian gas even a minus price for a time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,204 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I'm looking forward to them being toast. There'll be no Eamon Ryan bogeyman or Green Party to blame pretty much everything on. We still wont get nuclear and we still wont get fracking or natural gas and oil exploration. Who will you all blame then I wonder?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,204 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I think Cop27 is probably a waste of time but I have no problems with some politicians flying to important conferences. Government officials may need to do this from time to time.

    I'm just sick of people like you blaming the Green party for all of Ireland's ills. FF/FG were in power for 100 years and ignored things like public transport and energy security but now it's all Eamonn's fault. So yes I'll be glad when they gone so you'll have to figure out who to blame next, although no doubt you'll blame everything that's wrong in Ireland on the Green Party's term as a minor party in a coalition government.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,126 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Apologies for my belief that the question was so simple that even a child could understand it.

    I`ll try making it even simpler and take you by the hand through it.

    As there is no such thing as free money, how can you possibly see greens offshore plan to reach zero emissions being in any way economically viable when even the E.S.B.`s offshore wind partner have ran for the hills, and our latest strike price for onshore has jumped by 33% over the last 2 years and is now the same as the latest U.K. strike price for nuclear ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    If the projected shortfalls in capacity happen and we have rolling load shedding activities ala South Africa then it will focus the minds of the electorate fairly lively. There will also come a price point whereby the average citizen will just say enough is enough and large scale protests will be seen right across Europe, including our own little backwater.

    For a country so dependant of FDI our lack of scaling on the power generation side is going to completely stifle any future investment here for a decade. Some are already starting to reevaluate doing any further expansion here because the planning process is now completely insane and no new power will be given to large manufacturing or power users unless they build there own gas generation plants and then hand it over to the TSO for use as dispatchable power.

    As the famous quote goes "it's the economy stupid" and once we start seeing long term damage to it then priorities can shift quickly.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Oh dear 🤦‍♂️

    The EU has replaced Russian gas while Russian gas was still flowing. This winter is not an issue in the EU, next winter on the other hand, all bets are off and thats what all govts are stressing about



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,126 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    It may not be a total waste.

    Egypt might take Ryan for a tour of the their first nuclear power plant now under construction and he might even learn something from the trip.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I've said this exact thing several times. What so many don't realise is this stuff is locked in. There may be tweaks and modifications, but the plan as a whole, will stay the same. Any divergence from that will result in the govt being hauled before the courts (again) and losing (again) regardless of the parties in power



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What do you make of @[Deleted User] s link from earlier today showing Eamonn Ryan flying off half way around the world to a luxury resort in the desert on red sea to attend a climate change get jamboree?

    Where did I post that? Might want to check again



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't need to, the investors do. If its viable, it will be invested in, if its not, it won't.

    Given the massive amount going into offshore wind, it looks like the sums add up for those investors



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,204 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Climate change is not their single reason for existence. Also I'm unaware of any crusade against data centres, they're still being built. I've seen politicians from all parties giving out about them anyway.

    They don't provide many jobs, don't you think it would be better to have them spread around Europe rather than concentrated in Ireland given we have power capacity issues?



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    There are 93 nuclear plants in the US. Only 3 new reactors have been connected to the US grid in the last 30 years and they all started construction in the 1970's. They literally don't know how to build the feckers anymore. The original companies and people are long gone.

    Advanced nuclear in the US Of A simply Does. Not. Exist. So any costs for it must have been pulled out of their arses. The US is also trying to reduce their offshore wind costs by 50% by 2030.

    There is a survivor bias in the existing nuclear plants as many others were shutdown because they were beyond economic repair or simply uneconomic in the face of fracking gas.


    BTW Here's those three plants. First date is construction "start" - second is the commercial operation date.

    COMANCHE PEAK-2 - 19 Dec, 1974 - 03 Aug, 1993

    WATTS BAR-1 - 20 Jul, 1973 - 27 May, 1996

    WATTS BAR-2 - 01 Sep, 1973 - 19 Oct, 2016

    Under Construction

    VOGTLE-3 - 12 Mar, 2013

    VOGTLE-4 - 19 Nov, 2013

    In an Irish context you can ignore those start dates because the actual timeline starts in 2004 and the site already had a nuclear power plant.


    There's a snowball's chance in Hell that nuclear could be rolled out here in a timely fashion. And every delay means more interest payments and paying for other generators to keep the lights on.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    yeah fossil fuels have made a complete mess of energy prices of late. this is likely to continue for a long while yet. Expect it to get worse in dec when Russian refined oil products are excluded from the EU and worse again in Mar when Russian crude is excluded

    Also, if you are relying on datacenters for jobs then I've got some bad news for you....



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You seem to have the info, why don't you tell us



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Like hydrogen, ammonia is an energy store. Like propane it can be kept as a liquid under pressure so easy to store and transport. It's very toxic and corrosive so more of an industrial fuel rather than a residential fuel so that would be it's niche. It's ridiculous soluble in water so fire fighting and dispersing the stuff is a lot easier than for petrol or diesel. As a raw material for the chemical industry and for fertilizer demand will increase as the price drops. Humans already "fix" as much nitrogen as nature does. Using ammonia directly as a fertiliser is a no-no unless you inject it to reduce emissions.

    Takes a lot of energy to make it though so not really for grid scale storage. It can be burnt in diesels or gas turbines with a little help, or it can easily be converted back into hydrogen and nitrogen or used directly in fuel cells.

    It's very smelly. Like nappies saturated in wee wee.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,126 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Perhaps you didn`t understand the expression that their is no such thing as free money and those investors will want their investment back plus interest. So who do you believe will be footing the bill ?

    Basically for all your talk on viability are you not simple just backing a green proposal where even the little we do know about it will cost a continuous investment every 25 year at the maximum, of €83 Billion at least for just the construction costs with no idea how much the same will cost for the production of green hydrogen and energy storage ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,126 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    That is true.

    The also have policies they are pushing, especially in the E.U., on organic farming and we saw how that worked out when put into practice in Sri Lanka.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The Hinkley C price is guaranteed for 35 years even after all the delays. If any of the costs thrown out by nuclear fans are true then it's a licence to print money and the wonder is how come the UK can't get anyone else to sign up.

    If they maintain a 90% capacity factor then it's an income stream of €122Bn that's index linked, for just 3.2GW even using your figures offshore wind will deliver up to 30GW for 2/3rd's of that price. (EPR reactors were originally advertised as €3.3Bn each, but you know inflation during one of the longest lowest periods for inflation )

    Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the price for renewables here for 10 years, and after that it's market rates ? And delays will eat in those years. €97.87 for 7 years is only a seventh of paying €138.38 for 35 years (5 times as long).

    If a better cheaper technology comes along in 10 years you don't want to be stuck paying for nuclear in a long term contract. Nuclear fuel costs double when demand doubles. It's a function of the known reserves and how much it would cost to extract from poorer ores. Radon gas is easily detected because it's radioactive. The Uranium decay chain produces gamma rays which can be picked up from low flying aircraft. It's a lot easier to find than fossil fuel buried kilometres under the surface. In short there aren't huge easy to mine reserves out there.


    UK strike prices are a lot lower for offshore wind so I'd expect nuclear to be more expensive here than in the UK for similar reasons.


    Notes

    Your €83Bn is today's price for 30GW. It will get substantially cheaper by 2030. ( Nuclear won't , and then there's the £3Bn clean up costs per reactor afterwards )

    ( £92.50 in 2012 is £119.18 in Sept 2022 , €138.38 )

    (138.38 * 3200 *24 *365.25 * 35 * .90 = 122274339264 = €122Bn )



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Also I'd imagine our geology is like the UK's not well disposed to fracking.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    I can't see prices dropping here any time soon being honest. Spot prices went negative but that's not a good thing because it could also be an indication that demand is dropping, ie. large manufacturing is starting to shutdown and possibly move to other geographical regions that understand the importance of energy security and cost.

    The large FDIs get a lot of stick for not creating a lot of jobs yet those they do employ pay a significant portion of overall PAYE tax take.

    Another aspect of the DC debate that gets overlooked is that every single one of them is planned years in advance with approval given for grid connection. So blaming DCs only focuses on one half of the equation. Why was a grid connection approved if the grid provider wasn't planning on increasing generation to meet this demand along with natural growth.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Oh its not just me, its pretty much every govt, public body and investor around the globe

    There's a few holdouts, sure, but the crash in investment into the fossil fuel industry from 2014 onwards shows the money is flowing only one way i.e. out of fossil fuel development and into renewable energy development. this is simply because it takes 8-15 years to get to profit so investors have done their calculations and if its not making money or about to make money, they are not investing into fossil fuels any further. Simply put, they may not make it back otherwise. So they are putting it into renewables instead.

    Why do you think all the major oil companies are paying out such colossal dividends and making such insane profits. Its because they have curtailed all the massive investment they used to do so now they are stockpiling cash like there's no tomorrow and diversifying into other areas of energy generation as fast as they can.

    I get that you don't like this, and there's little I can do about this, but those are the simple facts> you are more than welcome to go off and verify everything I've just said but here's a selection from the IEA but by all means, go do your own research. Nothing I have said here is untrue and can be confirmed by reviewing the annual reports for the last few years of any of the major oil companies.

    Meanwhile




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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Like Abu Dhabi nuclear might actually be a good match for a country that gets reliable solar during peak demand. Having very cheap labour, worthless desert land and being able to railroad through planning all help too.

    But for Abu Dhabi and Iran another reason for nuclear is they can sell more fossil fuel. Other countries have been accused of using nuclear as a low carbon source to allow more cheap coal to be used instead of more expensive oil or gas.

    None of these apply here.


    If nuclear was to be used on the Irish grid then what would be used to back it up or load balance ? and if we have that capacity what do we need nuclear for ?


    Politically nuclear has a correlation with corruption.

    Practically the decision makers will have safely retired before it's delivered. They have no incentive to be honest.

    Politics have stopped nuclear in Germany, Italy and Switzerland. Most western European countries are phasing out nuclear by 2035.

    Getting a nuclear plant or funding for one from China or Russia is being a hostage to fortune. The politics will come back later on and bite you hard.



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