People getting upset about mass cards

Skommando · 28-12-2016 8:38pm

looksee wrote: »

Whether you accept the validity or morality of mass cards generally, or can do the mental gymnastics required to understand them, is irrelevant.

There is no mental gymnastics required, it's a card, a donation, and confirmation that a mass will be said for a named person.

looksee · 28-12-2016 11:26pm

Skommando wrote: »

There is no mental gymnastics required, it's a card, a donation, and confirmation that a mass will be said for a named person.

If a donation is a necessary part of the transaction, then it is more a payment than a donation. And it is the logistics of the 'confirmation' that is causing the issues. As I said, the mental gymnastics are irrelevant to the argument about whether cards are legitimate or bogus, so why have you picked up on that?

You have been trying to prove that an open discussion about bogus mass cards,
cards that are not approved by the Catholic church or the State, is somehow sectarian and proves everyone is out to 'get' the Catholic church, now you are reduced to quibbling about a sentence that again you chose to read incorrectly and in a way that you thought suited your argument.

Skommando · 29-12-2016 12:05am

looksee wrote: »

If a donation is a necessary part of the transaction, then it is more a payment than a donation. And it is the logistics of the 'confirmation' that is causing the issues. As I said, the mental gymnastics are irrelevant to the argument about whether cards are legitimate or bogus, so why have you picked up on that?

You have been trying to prove that an open discussion about bogus mass cards, cards that are not approved by the Catholic church or the State, is somehow sectarian and proves everyone is out to 'get' the Catholic church, now you are reduced to quibbling about a sentence that again you chose to read incorrectly and in a way that you thought suited your argument.

Mental gymnastics was your claim and terminology about mass cards not mine. The only mental gymnastics here are yours.
You are the one pretending what I've posted, I've only challenged any misrepresentations and explained any misconceptions about Mass cards, you only stared to differentiate between legit mass cards and bogus ones when you where corrected. If you don't like that, and you clearly don't like it, the problem is yours, not mine.

LordSutch · 29-12-2016 1:34am

Skommando wrote: »

Catholics no more exchange money for prayer than do Protestants making a donation to their local Church or Minister.

The contents of the collection plate usually go towards the upkeep of the building, the organ, the poor, for this cause or that cause, or whatever the needs be at any one time. And we pray, we pray a lot, but we still don't buy Mass cards

)

Each to their own.

Skommando · 29-12-2016 2:33am

LordSutch wrote: »

The contents of the collection plate usually go towards the upkeep of the building, the organ, the poor, for this cause or that cause, or whatever the needs be at any one time. And we pray, we pray a lot, but we still don't buy Mass cards )

Each to their own.

And also to the upkeep of your clergy. As does the donation component of the Mass card. Each to their own indeed.

ABC101 · 29-12-2016 12:27pm

Skommando wrote: »

And there's us thinking it was a thread about mass cards, when instead it's the same old ulterior agenda, the same sectarian cut and paste monologue rant, the same old soapboxing.

That's why I no longer post in this forum anymore. It's become a place where religion is portrayed as a scam and believers are portrayed as idiots.

solodeogloria · 29-12-2016 12:57pm

ABC101 wrote: »

That's why I no longer post in this forum anymore. It's become a place where religion is portrayed as a scam and believers are portrayed as idiots.

Good morning!

I think this is slightly unfair. I think most of the questions that have been raised about mass cards are about those unfamiliar with the concept.

I'm still confused as to why a mass being said for someone would be any more different to a prayer, or a sympathy card being offered. I personally would like to understand this, but people insisting that people that have genuine questions are somehow "sectarian" are being unreasonable.

As for donations. Generally speaking, donations are made by parishioners for the upkeep of their church. It's generally understood, that the pastor's salary, and the costs of electricity, and mission aren't free and as a result Christians give with a generous and open heart to do that.

However, I'm confused with the concept of a mass card, because it can quickly end up with the conclusion that you are paying for a mass or a prayer, which does bring up memory of Johann Tetzel in the mind of most people from a Reformed perspective. If it is a donation, it would be optional right?

I might be a Protestant, but I'm allowed to ask questions and learn. The same is true for the others on this thread.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Skommando · 29-12-2016 1:30pm

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

I think this is slightly unfair. I think most of the questions that have been raised about mass cards are about those unfamiliar with the concept.

I'm still confused as to why a mass being said for someone would be any more different to a prayer, or a sympathy card being offered.

As has been explained over and over and over, it isn't any different.

solodeogloria wrote: »

I personally would like to understand this, but people insisting that people that have genuine questions are somehow "sectarian" are being unreasonable.

The questions have been repeatedly answered. Trying to skew or ignore the answers and continually trying and construe another denominations / beliefs cards as something they are not is sectarian.

solodeogloria wrote: »

As for donations. Generally speaking, donations are made by parishioners for the upkeep of their church. It's generally understood, that the pastor's salary, and the costs of electricity, and mission aren't free and as a result Christians give with a generous and open heart to do that.

However, I'm confused with the concept of a mass card, because it can quickly end up with the conclusion that you are paying for a mass or a prayer, which does bring up memory of Johann Tetzel in the mind of most people from a Reformed perspective. If it is a donation, it would be optional right?

I might be a Protestant, but I'm allowed to ask questions and learn. The same is true for the others on this thread.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

As has been repeatedly explained in this thread and will no doubt be ignored, and will have to be soon repeated again, a mass can be said for anyone with or without donation. Priests say masses all the time for people without donation, but people also often, if they choose, make donations along with mass request and no card is even needed. A mass card is just another means and way of doing this, because it can also be given to the relatives of the bereaved Catholic to express sympathy at a time of bereavement, just like a sympathy card can, but with the added comfort that a mass will also be said for the deceased. Sometimes Catholics sometimes give mass cards along with their personal condolences, some don't, some people send them when they can't attend in person to sympathise, some don't, just like sympathy cards they are entirely optional personal gesture.

looksee · 29-12-2016 1:42pm

ABC101 wrote: »

That's why I no longer post in this forum anymore. It's become a place where religion is portrayed as a scam and believers are portrayed as idiots.

This is simply not true, nor is Skommando's attitude. From the start of the thread the discussion was about mass cards that are sold improperly, but Skommando is so busy being offended rather than debating that he has continuously twisted comments so that he could interpret them as anti Catholic.

Look down the list of topics and there are a majority that only matters of interest to Christians/Catholics. I get the impression that some contributors would prefer the entire forum to be RC and that other brands of Christianity, and certainly non-believers, are not allowed to get involved. This would create a situation similar to, for example, a politics forum would be just Fine Gael or Fine Fail and opposing views were not allowed to be expressed, it would not be much of a discussion.

Mass cards (as defined in Ireland) appear to be rather specifically Irish - and found in places where there is an Irish Catholic population - if you go elsewhere and try to research them you will find Catholic prayer cards, remembrance cards etc, but they do not have a mass attached, they are simply purchased in the way you would purchase a birthday card. To non-Catholics they are only a tiny step away from Indulgences. Discussing this aspect is not (for most people) mocking belief.

Skommando · 29-12-2016 1:52pm

looksee wrote: »

This is simply not true, nor is Skommando's attitude. From the start of the thread the discussion was about mass cards that are sold improperly

Yet again that isn't true, only when you were repeatedly asked to did you differentiate between bogus mass cards and legitimate ones.

looksee wrote: »

Look down the list of topics and there are a majority that only matters of interest to Christians/Catholics. I get the impression that some contributors would prefer the entire forum to be RC and that other brands of Christianity, and certainly non-believers, are not allowed to get involved.

Ironically, this thread, and in fact great deal of them on the forum, are not started by Catholics or Christians. I apologise for the fact that from time to time Catholics also have the right to reply to accusations or misrepresentations on this forum, and that whenever false assertions about Catholics and Christianity are made on this forum, they don't always go unchallenged, just as they don't if you make them about anything else on any forum.
Given the population of Catholics / Christians in this country, very few actually use this forum, and less and less so.

I think you should report you allegations about the forum and it's moderation, to the moderators, none of whom, by the way are Catholics, Christian, or Theist, so I think you'll find you'll get a very fair hearing, and they can best guide you. I believe there is a feedback forum you can avail of specially for this purpose, and I would encourage you to avail of it as well.

looksee · 29-12-2016 2:58pm

What allegations?

Skommando · 29-12-2016 3:10pm

looksee wrote: »

What allegations?

looksee wrote: »

Look down the list of topics and there are a majority that only matters of interest to Christians/Catholics. I get the impression that some contributors would prefer the entire forum to be RC and that other brands of Christianity, and certainly non-believers, are not allowed to get involved.

Many threads on this forum and posts are from non believers, if it's in line with the charter, I'm sure the moderators will confirm, you can post whatever you like, wherever you like, whenever you like, but don't be surprised or upset when any misrepresentations or inaccurate claims about Christianity or a particular Christian denomination, are sometimes challenged, corrected, or clarified by believers who still have a right of reply on this forum. I would strongly suggest you have a good read of the forum charter, if you have an issue with the forum or grievance, again, I strongly suggest you report it to the moderators, and use the feedback forum and I'm sure they will be able to guide you better.

ABC101 · 29-12-2016 3:45pm

looksee wrote: »

This is simply not true, nor is Skommando's attitude. From the start of the thread the discussion was about mass cards that are sold improperly, but Skommando is so busy being offended rather than debating that he has continuously twisted comments so that he could interpret them as anti Catholic.

Look down the list of topics and there are a majority that only matters of interest to Christians/Catholics. I get the impression that some contributors would prefer the entire forum to be RC and that other brands of Christianity, and certainly non-believers, are not allowed to get involved. This would create a situation similar to, for example, a politics forum would be just Fine Gael or Fine Fail and opposing views were not allowed to be expressed, it would not be much of a discussion.

Mass cards (as defined in Ireland) appear to be rather specifically Irish - and found in places where there is an Irish Catholic population - if you go elsewhere and try to research them you will find Catholic prayer cards, remembrance cards etc, but they do not have a mass attached, they are simply purchased in the way you would purchase a birthday card. To non-Catholics they are only a tiny step away from Indulgences. Discussing this aspect is not (for most people) mocking belief.

It has been mentioned many times previously about the hostility against religion and believers in other threads.

In fact about 12 months ago there was a thread started about that very topic. Which I think was the last time I posted in this forum.

I never mentioned anything about the RC religion in my previous post above. I did use the words religion and believers.

When I use these words (religion/believers) I am referring to people of all faiths, not specifically those of the RCC.

I have from time to time looked into the forum, seen numerous posters who possess a faith, explaining time and time again, over and over the reasoning behind some aspect of Christianity.

Despite the time, patience and effort made, the snide, condescending, ignorant comments keep coming and coming.

I don't know how some posters put up with it, either they have a very thick skin (patience of a saint perhaps?) or are too dense to see the abuse
being thrown at them. A third possibility exists, perhaps they like abuse / hardship?

While there is some honest respectful discussion between some posters, IMO the forum is mainly used by one group to throw as much mud as they like at another group.

I don't believe the Christianity forum should be strictly the preserve of RCC believers either, but the forum / thread should not be used by one poster/ group to slagg off the convictions of another group.

looksee · 29-12-2016 4:56pm

I have just looked at the threads on the first page of the Christianity forum. Leaving aside the odd one liner which is going to crop up in any forum, there is very little 'hate' discussion.

There are two threads by one person who feels that the RC church is misinterpreting the bible, that is not slagging off, it is just one person's opinion. There is no reason why it should be threatening.

There is one about the Palmarian church, which I doubt anyone would take seriously, except that it appears to be doing damage to families.

There is one about Free will, which has got totally obscure but appears to be more philosophy than religion-bashing.

The only one I can see that goes into significant dispute is the women priests and that is equally Catholics saying women priests are not 'real' priests (in the Anglican church) and non-Catholics disparaging Catholic practices.

This thread is only being considered anti-Catholic because a couple of people are more interested in taking offence than actually reading what is being said.

So can you find any other threads that are abusing or threatening the Catholic church, in this forum? Are you sure you have not been reading A&A and transferring opinions from there to this forum?

Edit: I have on several occasions reported abusive or anti-religion posts in this forum.

Cabaal · 29-12-2016 5:54pm

looksee wrote: »

This thread is only being considered anti-Catholic because a couple of people are more interested in taking offence than actually reading what is being said.
.

Spot on!
It's also obvious as hell that most people that commented in this thread didn't even listen to the podcast I linked dispite the fact it contained far more detail then the very brief description I copied from the RTE website.

People focused on me rather then the subject of the thread and the very fact that Catholics can be very much against mass cards and very much for cards. Does this make those Catholics anti catholic?
:rolleyes:

This thread isn't me attempting to just simply slag off catholic stuff, I know Catholics that believe in mass cards and what they stand for. But equally I know Catholics that they they are a money making racket. I was very much interested in people's views in this thread.

Next time I'd suggest people focus on the topic and not just the poster, not everything is an attack on your belief.

As pointed out there's plenty of threads in this forum started by Christians and Catholics that other Christians and Catholics would consider anti, should those poster be labeled as attacking the church/belief too?

ABC101 · 29-12-2016 6:11pm

looksee wrote: »

I have just looked at the threads on the first page of the Christianity forum. Leaving aside the odd one liner which is going to crop up in any forum, there is very little 'hate' discussion.

There are two threads by one person who feels that the RC church is misinterpreting the bible, that is not slagging off, it is just one person's opinion. There is no reason why it should be threatening.

There is one about the Palmarian church, which I doubt anyone would take seriously, except that it appears to be doing damage to families.

There is one about Free will, which has got totally obscure but appears to be more philosophy than religion-bashing.

The only one I can see that goes into significant dispute is the women priests and that is equally Catholics saying women priests are not 'real' priests (in the Anglican church) and non-Catholics disparaging Catholic practices.

This thread is only being considered anti-Catholic because a couple of people are more interested in taking offence than actually reading what is being said.

So can you find any other threads that are abusing or threatening the Catholic church, in this forum? Are you sure you have not been reading A&A and transferring opinions from there to this forum?

Edit: I have on several occasions reported abusive or anti-religion posts in this forum.

I never stated that this forum or this thread is anti catholic.

I will repeat this statement again.

I never stated that this forum / thread is anti catholic.

I will repeat again... in my original post on this thread.... I used the words religion and believer. May I ask do you accept this distinction?

Cabaal started this thread, has made numerous condescending comments and not once has Cabaal being pulled up on it. Not once.

Cabaal is free to use words "Scam, money making racket, etc"

Rainman16 uses words "scam and idiots", but then gets cautioned for using the description of scam, but not use of the description "idiots".

But notably no caution for Cabaal. Cabaal is free to call religious people liars, again no moderation forthcoming. RCC is described as vultures, preying on vulnerable old people etc.

Other comments from other posters also show an awareness that there is a certain amount of intolerance at work in the original post. Nick Park gets 12 thanks for asking the poster not to get worked up about it /show more tolerance.

DeftlLeftHand is clearly inferring that there is more mud slinging at work. Just leave believers alone was his first line in his post.

I'm clearly not the only poster on this thread... who believes this is just another mud slinging activity by a non believer.

I do not speak for others, but from my reading of this thread alone... there are at least 5 possibly 7 posters who see this thread as nothing more than a bashing exercise.

I don't know why Cabaal, who clearly has very strong opinions of RCC (#15)and most probably believers of any and all faiths started this thread in the first place.

It clearly is not to have a open, respectful discussion, just a opportunity to throw mud at something he / she finds not to their liking.

ABC101 · 29-12-2016 6:33pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Spot on!
It's also obvious as hell that most people that commented in this thread didn't even listen to the podcast I linked dispite the fact it contained far more detail then the very brief description I copied from the RTE website.

People focused on me rather then the subject of the thread and the very fact that Catholics can be very much against mass cards and very much for cards. Does this make those Catholics anti catholic?
:rolleyes:

This thread isn't me attempting to just simply slag off catholic stuff, I know Catholics that believe in mass cards and what they stand for. But equally I know Catholics that they they are a money making racket. I was very much interested in people's views in this thread.

Next time I'd suggest people focus on the topic and not just the poster, not everything is an attack on your belief.

As pointed out there's plenty of threads in this forum started by Christians and Catholics that other Christians and Catholics would consider anti, should those poster be labeled as attacking the church/belief too?

Oh come now Cabaal... so what was your post #15 all about?

Why did you use such offensive words / descriptions of RCC believers?

Calling them Liars, Scams, money making rackets, vultures preying on elderly vulnerable people, denying people education and so on.

looksee · 29-12-2016 6:38pm

I agree there were some unnecessary comments thrown gratuitously into the op, they were indeed irrelevant, the topic was the selling of what have to be bogus mass cards, given the legal requirements, and the opinions of the Bishops. The next comments were divided between non-believers who do not approve of mass cards, and people of other denominations who also do not approve of mass cards.

Even though this is the Christianity forum this is a valid discussion, especially since the mass cards in question were bogus - though for some reason there was a move to defend these bogus mass cards, accusing people of being anti Catholic for commenting on them. I agree that in this forum Christianity should not be mocked, and I have in the past reported inappropriate posts. However there is no reason why it cannot be discussed and debated, and even criticised, if done reasonably.

I have been trying to have an open and respectful discussion, the note of hysteria was coming from defenders of religion - if something is not respectful, report it, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Cabaal · 30-12-2016 6:45pm

ABC101 wrote: »

I never stated that this forum or this thread is anti catholic.

I will repeat this statement again.

I never stated that this forum / thread is anti catholic.

I will repeat again... in my original post on this thread.... I used the words religion and believer. May I ask do you accept this distinction?

Cabaal started this thread, has made numerous condescending comments and not once has Cabaal being pulled up on it. Not once.

Cabaal is free to use words "Scam, money making racket, etc"

Rainman16 uses words "scam and idiots", but then gets cautioned for using the description of scam, but not use of the description "idiots".

But notably no caution for Cabaal. Cabaal is free to call religious people liars, again no moderation forthcoming. RCC is described as vultures, preying on vulnerable old people etc.

Other comments from other posters also show an awareness that there is a certain amount of intolerance at work in the original post. Nick Park gets 12 thanks for asking the poster not to get worked up about it /show more tolerance.

DeftlLeftHand is clearly inferring that there is more mud slinging at work. Just leave believers alone was his first line in his post.

I'm clearly not the only poster on this thread... who believes this is just another mud slinging activity by a non believer.

I do not speak for others, but from my reading of this thread alone... there are at least 5 possibly 7 posters who see this thread as nothing more than a bashing exercise.

I don't know why Cabaal, who clearly has very strong opinions of RCC (#15)and most probably believers of any and all faiths started this thread in the first place.

It clearly is not to have a open, respectful discussion, just a opportunity to throw mud at something he / she finds not to their liking.

Some massive assumptions about me by you going on here.
How about you discuss the topic of this thread and not me?

Got a problem with my posts then please by all means report them.
It's that simple. Leave a mod decide if I've said something inappropriate. If I have them a mod will take action.

Dragging a thread off topic to comment on me like you've done here is just silly,

Like yourself I am entitled to my viewpoint and many of my comments in relation to mass cards being a scam and priests preying on older vulnerable people are shared by Catholics. Perhaps you assumptions about me are clouding your viewpoint of my posts?

Rather then moan about my posts, I'd suggest reporting them as its best to leave the moderation to a mod.

Now if we could get back on topic it would be great,

Surely it doesn't matter where the priest is or how many hundreds or thousands of mass cards they sign because if he still remembers people when saying mass then surely its no different to a priest in Ireland doing the same?

If those priests benefit from the money paid for the cards then how is it any different to paying priests up the country for mass cards? Ultimately the end result is the same and the person the mass card is for still benefits from it?

lmaopml · 31-12-2016 2:11am

Out of about 150 cards this Christmas I got two Mass Cards, and I have to say I noticed them more so than some other cards - and I really liked getting them and I really like the people who sent them to me too. That's it.

c_man · 16-06-2017 12:30pm

Skommando wrote: »

And there's us thinking it was a thread about mass cards, when instead it's the same old ulterior agenda, the same sectarian cut and paste monologue rant, the same old soapboxing.

You'd imagine that they'd amend the charter to stop such nonsense, wouldn't you..

it's been my experience that Mass Cards aren't a thing outside of Ireland. So when I get one it's a nice nudge from home.

LordSutch · 24-06-2017 1:15am

eviltwin wrote: »

What's it cost for a mass card these days?

This is for the family of somebody who's just died right?

As a Prod I've never really understood the whole Mass card thing, but if it works for people & that's their belief then that's cool. For us, we just buy a Sympathy card in the local Spar/Tesco, then post or deliver it.

Hotblack Desiato · 30-10-2022 9:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/102079276#Comment_102079276

Wow, yet another ancient thread about mass cards reanimated by that poster, what's that about? 🤔

My late mother was a devout Catholic but rather dubious about mass cards. She regarded those sold in newsagents etc. as basically a scam. When she wanted a mass said she went to the parish office. That didn't always work out though, as at least once, a mass supposedly offered for the intentions of a deceased close relative did not result in their name being read out as was (implicitly) promised and was regarded as the norm when an intention for a specific mass on a specific day was arranged in the parish office.

It's completely bizarre that our legislature has decided to involve itself in adjudicating as to what is or is not a valid religious practice. There'd be strong grounds to challenge this legislation as unconstitutional (as it guarantees freedom of religion) or in the European Court of Human Rights. If I established a religion and called its ceremony a "mass" a lot of people wouldn't like it, but it's perfectly legal to do so and would be my right under freedom of religion, yet the Irish government would purport to stop me from selling cards offering the saying of my "mass" while protecting the sale of cards offering the saying of another type of mass.

sporina · 03-11-2022 12:30pm

My family and friends of are big into mass cards - they provide a lot of solace - I have seen it first hand - and experienced it...

I lost Mum in 2021 and we got 160 mass cards for her from family and friends.. cards of all kinds.. from knock, local priests etc.. inc. some fab perpetual enrolment book style mass cards.. meant a lot to us..

I lost my Dad in Sept and yet another mass card has arrived in the post today..

I am not religious in the traditional way - for me its the intention behind the cards,... recognising that the deceased was of strong faith perhaps.. being thought of, wishing them peace, giving us solace and comfort - eg: the sender of the card I got this am knew that my Dad had a strong faith - so I appreciate that she sent the card - regardless of whether or not the mass is said or where the money goes to..

ohnonotgmail · 03-11-2022 12:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119813502#Comment_119813502

It is obtaining money by deception. the whole practice is morally bankrupt and I cant understand why catholics supprt it.

sporina · 03-11-2022 2:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119827849#Comment_119827849

my post above might give you some insight

ohnonotgmail · 03-11-2022 2:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828505#Comment_119828505

the effect of mass cards on those receiving them doesn't change the fact that priests signing mass cards en masse for money with the promise of a mass that never comes is deceptive.

sporina · 03-11-2022 2:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828520#Comment_119828520

I guess we all gotta pick our battles.. what ever make you happy

ohnonotgmail · 03-11-2022 3:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828547#Comment_119828547

It can be deceptive and also a source of comfort for some. One does not preclude the other

smacl · 03-11-2022 3:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119827828#Comment_119827828

Depends very much on the people involved. When my wife died a few years ago I received a fair few mass cards from religious relatives of my wife, even though neither she nor myself are in any way religious. It struck me at the time that this was something done out of a sense of tradition and social obligation, something in reality they were doing largely for themselves. At the same time I got many heartfelt letters of condolence and visits that were greatly appreciated. Frankly I consider sending mass cards to people who do not share your beliefs at a time when they are suffering a loss to be thoughtless. Each to their own.

sporina · 03-11-2022 9:26pm

@smacl - did any of the people who sent/gave mass cards visit also?? in other words, the people who sent mass cards - was that their only form of support when you wer bereaved?

In my most recent bereavement, many of the people who gave mass cards wer at the removal and or funeral/have been in touch loads.. calls and visits..etc.. all greatly appreciated..

And like I said, i'm not religious in the trad way - but my parents wer - and the masses wer for them - so appreciated them for that reason too..

We got a lot of sympathy cards too - but this thread is about mass cards I guess..

But if i am sending a card, whether it be a mass card or just a sympathy card - I always think of the people to whom I am sending them to/for.. sometimes I send a mass and sympathy card.. ie: one for the deceased (if known that they wer religious) and a sympathy card for the bereaved (if they are not particularly religious).. it depends

in any event, each to their own indeed.. I think its the intention thats important

elperello · 03-11-2022 9:42pm

Since this thread was started things have changed regarding bereavement.

Covid stopped attendance at funerals for some time and many people are still wary of crowded settings.

In my experience more are opting to send a mass card to convey their condolences.

sporina · 03-11-2022 10:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119830392#Comment_119830392

there was definitely an element of that with my Mum's death (sept '21).. but any support is welcome.. as I said, I am not religious in the trad way.. but I appreciate the sentiments.. thinking of us - going to the effort of getting a card, stamp/delivering it etc.

Peregrinus · 04-11-2022 2:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119828520#Comment_119828520

What makes you think the mass never comes?

ohnonotgmail · 04-11-2022 8:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119831283#Comment_119831283

A mass card basically says that a mass will be said foe the intentions of the deceased. How can there be a mass when the priest who signed the card has no connection to the purchaser or the deceased and hs no idea who they are?

Shauna677 · 04-11-2022 9:00am

I'm not a practicing catholic not since I was 14, however, I understand the meaning people get from sending mass cards, it's an act of love and thoughtfulness. I usually send a nice sympathy card, people do read all of the cards and they get great comfort from them. That's the main thing isn't it, a card will help a bereaved person no matter the religious content.

Peregrinus · 04-11-2022 9:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119831414#Comment_119831414

He doesn't need to know who they are in order to say mass for them; God knows who they are.

(Plus, the priest who signs the mass card doesn't have to be the one who says the mass.)

looksee · 04-11-2022 9:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119831414#Comment_119831414

Even as a non-Catholic I can understand how this works. Surely if you can cope with all the other mysteries of the faith it is not impossible to see that a priest can sign a card to say that a Mass will be said 'for your intentions', and the intentions happen. You don't need to know who the person is, the intention is what matters, the card is bought in good fairth. Meanwhile though, there has been evidence that the Masses don't happen in the way the Priest signs for, but presumably the intention on the part of the giver is sufficient in terms of any blessings involved.

Thinking about it though, I have given Mass cards in the past (very few, granted, for very special circumstances) trusting that the Mass will be said, but since it is not part of my belief I wonder it actually 'counts'? I'd say on balance that it does, since it is for the intentions of the recipient, it doesn't matter what I believe. I am tying myself up in knots here, but I say this with absolutely no disrespect intended to the beliefs of anyone else.

Is this practise heading in the direction of indulgences though?

happyoutscan · 04-11-2022 10:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119831560#Comment_119831560

How do you know?

If your God is that powerful, could he not have prevented other things from happening?

Peregrinus · 04-11-2022 10:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119831617#Comment_119831617

That's an interesting question but it deserves a separate thread.

There's not much value in a discussion about the Catholic practice of mass cards, on the Christianity forum, that doesn't accept that the practice has developed within the context of Christian belief and needs to be understood in that context. Christian belief is that God is all-knowing, which means that he certainly knows both the donor of a mass card and, if the donor's intention is to have a mass said for a deceased person, the deceased person. Whatever the spiritual merits of having a mass said for a particular person, or for a particular intention - and there are differing views within Christianity on this - I don't think any Christian will object to the practice on the basis that God might not know what's going on.

ohnonotgmail · 04-11-2022 10:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119831560#Comment_119831560

get away out of that. What is the need for the card then? Why cant a priest just say a prayer for the intention of all deceased during mass without money being required? It is just a money making scam. of course how much actually goes to the priest and how much is taken by middlemen on the way and the shops profit on them is another matter.

Peregrinus · 04-11-2022 10:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119831742#Comment_119831742

Money-making, yes, but how is it a scam?

The basic point of the thing is that it's a traditional mechanism for the support of the clergy. It's entirely optional; if you wish to find other ways to support the clergy, or prefer not to support them at all, you are perfectly free to. You make an offering for the support of a priest; in gratitude the priest celebrates his mass for your intentions. (Traditionally the offering was supposed to be of an amount sufficient to keep the priest for one day, and he would celebrate that day's mass for your intentions.) If he doesn't need the offering (e.g. because he already has adequate support) he passes it on to another priest who does need it, and that other priest will celebrate mass for your intentions. Not so much nowadays, I think, but back in the day mass offerings remitted to mission territories were a significant source of support for missionary priests.

No particular mass is identified as the one to be celebrated for the donor's intentions; donors understand this. If you want, say, the 9:00 mass next Sunday at a particular church celebrated for your mother's anniversary, you can arrange that with the parish concerned, but that's quite different from buying a mass card. If you buy a mass card, you don't know when, or where, or by whom, a mass will be celebrated for your intentions, but there's no scam there, because you know you don't know.

I should add that, while this isn't an exclusively Irish thing, it's also not a universal thing; there's large parts of the Catholic world where the practice is rare or unknown. I suspect it became established in Ireland in the 19th century, when the mechanisms for clerical support available in other European countries didn't function in Ireland. Now, I think the practice survives because it's popular. I know a few priests who are mildly or greatly embarrassed by it, but people want it and get upset if it's not available.

bucketybuck · 04-11-2022 10:49am

Its sounds like the ultimate scam to me.

Convince people that they need this nebulous concept and take their money without ever providing anything.

Mainly sold to elderly people of course. There are lots of places where if you tried to push the concept you would be shamed for preying on vulnerable people.

ohnonotgmail · 04-11-2022 10:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119831763#Comment_119831763

when catholics are ok with mass cards pre-signed by a priest in Africa or the Philippines who may see a fraction of the money paid that tells me they are happy with a faith that is transactional. It probably also explains why the church is declining when that is considered "faith".

Fighting Tao · 04-11-2022 10:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119831742#Comment_119831742

I’d agree that it is a money making racket. I have first hand experience of a parish priest coming into a shop my mother owned years ago demanding that she stopped selling mass cards signed by a priest in a different country because it was affecting their income. At that time my mother was selling the cards for about €2.50, and the full amount money was going direct to the mission along with a list of who the mass was to be said for on a weekly basis. The local parish was selling mass cards for €10 at the time and a person often had to wait around until a priest was free. In both cases there was no guarantee that the name was mentioned during any mass as it was a transaction in good faith.

looksee · 04-11-2022 10:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119831794#Comment_119831794

It might be a lot of things that you might not believe in, but, as Peregrinus says, it is not a scam. People - including elderly people - can spend their money on anything. A gambler might choose to put a bed on a horse, or buy themselves a bunch of flowers or a cup of fancy coffee in a cafe. They do these things because it gives them pleasure or satisfaction, and what harm in that?

It does not reflect very well on the church if they do not regulate it, but that is a whole different story.

Peregrinus · 04-11-2022 10:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119831794#Comment_119831794

And there are other places where, if you asserted without a shred of evidence that a whole class of people who do something you don't understand must have been "convinced that they need this nebulous concept" and must be "vulnerable people" who were being "preyed upon", they might think you were just the tiniest bit arrogant and patronising.

bucketybuck · 04-11-2022 11:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119831819#Comment_119831819

And people, including elderly people, can spend their money on having some lads in a van promise to clean out their gutters. The lads take their money and never actually do anything, but sure where is the harm in that?

The lads in the van get called scumbags and vultures, but what exactly is the difference between them and the church? They are both spinning a yarn to a vulnerable person and then taking their money while doing nothing.

Peregrinus · 04-11-2022 11:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119831848#Comment_119831848

You're not the first person to have claimed that nothing is done in return for mass offerings. But others who made this claim failed to back it up, and I confidently predict that you will fail too. How do you know that masses are not celebrated for the intentions of the donors?

ohnonotgmail · 04-11-2022 11:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119831877#Comment_119831877

how can they be when the priest who signed the card doesn't know the name of the deceased?

People getting upset about mass cards

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