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New party vote share?

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,639 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Income tax was also temporary initially.

    USC is a better tax than the preexisting income tax, as more people paid into the net.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,639 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Yes but I dont own my home, the bank does.

    I'm all for property taxation but it should be on owned property only.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,188 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Your name is on the deeds.

    Any exemption for those with mortgages would be both a very odd idea, and wildly open to abuse. Take out a 1% LTV 60 year mortgage to ensure you are never considered owner and bye bye tax.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,639 ✭✭✭✭ELM327




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,188 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    That does not make them owners. You are the owner.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,639 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    If I take out a (small) loan for $1m and thus have $1m in my bank account, am I a millionaire?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,719 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    No, just a populist bullshitter.

    All these ideals are fine and well until Mr Civil Servant sits down in front of Superman TD and asks, 'so what services or investments are we cutting to pay for all this'?

    I have two words for any person that believes politics and governance is as simple as the OP suggests.

    Truss and Kwarteng.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,188 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I'm not getting in to stupid mind games here

    You own the house, you pay the property tax.

    At what % LTV will you stop believing the bank owns it?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We don't have a 50% income tax rate in Ireland.

    You're probably referring to the marginal rate of taxes charged on incomes over €70k. Is €70k a pittance?

    No income tax is paid on the first €17,000 earned in 2022 , and this is increasing further in 2023.

    No USC is paid on income below €12,000.

    Check your taxes before making silly comments. Go get your last payslip, divide your net pay by your gross pay, and come back to let us know how close to 50% it is (I'll bet its a long way off).



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The best of all the taxes as is captures most earners and can't be relieved. Its also a much smaller amount paid than income tax for pretty much all workers yet draws far more anger then any calls for income tax rates to be lowered or bands to be increased. I think the problem is the vast majority don't understand how tax is calculated, can't make head nor tail of their payslip, so just mutter USC bad over pints to sound like they know what they're talking about.

    I'd be fairly certain 99/100 taxpayers in Ireland couldn't calculate their USC liability



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Murph85


    Thete is a middle ground between them and the joke that passes for irish politics...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Murph85


    You lose fifty percent or as good as over a pittance of 40k now or as good as 37k a few months ago. Have you run a company? I have. Employees didnt want additional hours, at rates even up to 50 euro an hour. Cant blame them. They lose half it. I'm expecting a genius suggestion from you now. " why not pay them more" viability in a word. So before you go pulling that predictable card, I'll suggest I know a bit more about that industry than you do, given it is the largest company of its kind in Ireland... this of course applies to all industries however. Extreme taxation over a pittance makes a mockey of irelands open for business, pro enterprise bullshit. Of course this is an issue now growing in prominence... as reported in the Irish times. I'll dog out links when I have time...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,041 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Your proposed new pol party is off to a bad start, as both LPT and USC are good taxes.

    It is widely agreed, for the last 100 years, that property taxes are the best taxes.

    I agree with addressing waste in public spending / more housing / vacancy taxes, etc.


    If you want to cut a tax, start with income tax on working. Workers on median wages face a 48.5% marginal tax rate!!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,743 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Reform the HSE

    How are you going to do that?

    Lay off thousands of people?

    How do you plan on paying for their redundancy?

    How do you plan on paying for their welfare while they are looking for new jobs ?

    And finally how will you deal with the backlash at election time?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,041 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Banks do not own any houses.

    A mortgage is a charge/lien over a property.

    I own my house, and I have a mortgage on it.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    But just to confirm, none of your employees pay an effective rate of tax of 50%?

    I hope you've a good accountant for your company given your lack of grasp of the Irish taxation system.

    The tax free thresholds we have in Ireland have to be offset elsewhere, therefore income tax rates increasing to 40% over €40k (from 2023). Where do you expect Ireland to get its tax revenues from if we remove LPT, USC and cut income tax receipts as per your grand plan?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,041 ✭✭✭✭Geuze




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm well aware, where did I say otherwise?

    The poster referred to a 50% income tax rate. There's no such thing. We have 20% and 40%.

    The 48.5% includes PRSI and USC.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,232 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Beautiful post. You have trolled almost everyone in one go.

    All you are missing is a bit of gay/trans bating.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Murph85


    Income tax is forty percent? Tax on incom over an extreme low thresholds is as good as fifty percent, or because it isnt called income tax, we can just write off usc and prsi etc? I couldnt care less if they consolidated them all and called it the tooth fairy tax. Your losing as good as fifty percent of your pay. Thats the way it is...



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Murph85


    Stopping wasting billions every year on crap. Addressing waste. Increase taxes on derelict and vacant housing and sites. Increase motor tax on new petrol and diesel cars. Amongst other measures. The growing economy is providing extra billions alone... where do you think ffg magic money tree is coming from ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,188 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    You haven't identified what the "crap" you are going to stop spending on is.

    And don't just say "NGOs", because that will just show you don't know what it is. Most "NGO" funding from the state is so they can provide services - mental health, social care, homeless services etc - that the state is not providing. Spending that would have to be replaced 1:1 with HSE, Department of Education or Department of Children immediately.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You're not taking into account that not 1 cent of income tax is paid on the first €17k earned and the various ways to relieve income tax as well as other tax credits depending on individual's circumstances. Nobody you employ pays 50% tax, nobody.

    As an employer I'd expect you to be more annoyed by the employers PRSI rate which is a huge cost for business.

    And back to property tax, the fact that higher value homes are taxed more heavily than lower value homes is surely a good thing? A very progressive tax, that again is unavoidable and must be paid by the wealthy who may own several houses (can't be relieved by pension contributions, EIIS, or other income tax saving schemes).

    Are you anti VAT too?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,014 ✭✭✭Allinall


    OP hasn’t a notion how politics, or running a multi billion economy works.

    I suspect they also have no idea how business works, and are as far removed from running a business as is possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Hence my point about rejigging income tax so that everyone pays proportionally



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Stop Foreign Aid: 1bn straight back into the tax pot.

    Deport illegals: Hundreds of millions saved in accommodation, food, pocket money, medical bills, legal fees.

    Progressive taxation: More millions earned.

    Slash NGO spending: Currently €5bn+ a year.

    Tougher sentencing: Less spending on free legal aid for the country’s Easter population.

    Plenty of waste currently that could be put towards improving Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Pay attention to the next SF Ard Fheis and the main speeches. That's one place where you get the measure of a party.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Well I would replace property tax with more meaningful local service charges. So charges for services provided by local & state authorities where availed of: so refuse, recycling, water, sewage, libraries, parks, local footpaths, cycleways and local roads etc. Standard rates across the state with a balancing redistribution to less populated parts. All house occupants to pay, no freebies for social housing. Exemptions only for the likes of refuse, water & sewage where people either pay local contractors or on group schemes, own wells etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Murph85


    Backlash? You wont have majority and you will have set out your stall. You aren't trying to be everything to everyone, pleasing nobody. Like all the current options.... some will pat you on the back for it, others wont like it.they are too spineless to do it here. Fg would prefer to lose voters, than look like it was targeting the welfare classes, who hate them anyway.m.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,188 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Lots of generic populist far-right calling points there, none of which will save anything.

    Foreign aid is a major part of the countries international reputation. Its a very much expected part of being a proper country. Don't expect to be treated particularly well by other countries if you don't do it - there's a reason even the furthest right US governments still did. If you want to do a Kwarteng and crash all market confidence in your economy, cutting your foreign aid spending is going to spook everyone.

    Actual illegal immigrants - those here without permission or an ongoing asylum application - cost the state nothing as they can't claim anything. Are you proposing deporting those with current applications? Because that's not possible.

    We have incredibly progressive taxation already. "Let me personally pay less" does not mean something is progressive, but that's what you mean isn't it?

    "NGO spending" is our health, education and homeless services for the most part. You know you'll have to put that much if not more in the HSE, Department of Children and Department of Education budgets to replace it? We aren't spending 5bn on basket weaving classes, its going on providing services the state just doens't provide under its own banner

    Tougher sentencing costs money, it doesn't save it. Cutting legal aid is probably just going to result in more people in prison, costing even more.

    Try again. Try a lot harder if you want something that people would actually vote for, too. We already have multiple far right parties and they fight to share 2% of the vote between them.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Murph85


    "Tougher sentencing costs money, it doesn't save it. Cutting legal aid is probably just going to result in more people in prison, costing even more."

    Sure should we just release them all then ? Laughable. Forget the morality of it.. I doubt it costs more. The cost of crime, gardai, the welfare claimed, these scumbags getting their partners pregnant and the hundreds of thousands that Costs the state, free legal aid etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,188 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The US has a ridiculous proportion of its population locked up at any given time and has a pathetically funded public defender system.

    Has it done anything to reduce crime rates, recividism etc?

    No, no it hasn't. Nor will it ever.

    Its a generic far-right call, but it does nothing. It was being given as a proposed cost saving when it wouldn't save a thing - but they just had to get it in there anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,570 ✭✭✭MyStubbleItches


    I’d love if someone could sensibly explain this to me. OP is a no brainer. So is it just that we’re a welfare state now and that’s it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    What you're describing is Margret Thatcher's poll-tax which just about brought the UK to open revolt.

    Apart from having none of the positive benefits of LPT or a land value tax in disincentivising hoarding, dereliction, vacancy and the inefficient use of land, it's also downright unenforceable and uncollectible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭Tonesjones


    This new party's policy includes raising taxes.

    Forget it . Don't bother



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Murph85




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Murph85



    I agree totally with the proposal about a poll tax. Hundred percent. As you point out though, it will never happen here. Ever !



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    What is far right about enforcing existing laws?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,552 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,743 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    It's empty populism because it's easy to put down on paper but much harder to implement.

    Theses "new party" threads with all their plans a two a penny around here

    The poster mentions:

    More prisons

    Where are you going to build them?

    Get rid of LPT, USC and VRT

    What are you going to replace the revenue with?

    Get rid of NGOs

    How are you going to replace the services they deliver and how are you going to pay for it?

    Reform the HSE

    What exactly does that reform look like.

    Same with the AGS reform.

    And they also say "More stick less carrot for the scum"

    Who exactly of the electorate are they calling "scum"?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Murph85


    Lpt brings in a billion or less. They pulled out what this budget? 11 billion out of their ass and you are asking how over several budgets, they can find 5 billion? Lol!


    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/budgets/budget_2023.html

    Anyone have a link for usc figures?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    It's called pay for what you get. In old money it was lumped together as domestic rates. Now it's partly LPT. But pay for what you get would a lot more meaningful.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Foreign aid point: Nonsense.

    Illegal immigrants: Leo has said in the Dail that we were sending Georgians etc straight back, this is possible. Since McEntee became minister we have rowed back on this so we’ve 1792 here that shouldn’t be.

    Anyone landing with no documentation should be immediately returned to sender. That would be 2,232 less people taking Irish taxpayers money so far this year. I’d also abolish Leave to Remain, you don’t qualify for asylum you are repatriated immediately.

    Visa overstayers who have been working illegally: arrested and held until deportation. Accounts frozen/money seized and funds taken by the state as proceeds of crime to help pay towards deportation costs.

    Tax: Never said let me pay less tax. Everyone should pay tax proportionate to their income. If I’m on a high income I should be paying high tax.

    NGO spending: We’ve multiples of the same NGOs, how many homeless one have we, mental health ones? And a whole raft of “help anyone but the Irish” ones. Would save a huge amount of money.

    Tougher sentencing costs more than what it does now, congratulations on understanding maths. However, legal aid costs us a huge amount of money. I reckon we’d be saving money with longer sentencing. Longer sentencing also stops scummer procreation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Your argument summed up in your first sentence. It’s hard to do so let’s just stay the way we are. Get off your knees mate. **** hell.


    Anyone with over 10 convictions is scum.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,188 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Yeah, you don't need a new political party - there's already three far right ones that are this reactionary and economically illiterate.

    They have no elected reps. They will never have any elected reps either, thankfully.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    One economic policy in what you quoted and that’s to improve the tax system and the tax take.

    Making more money for the state is economically illiterate now 🤣🤣🤣🤣



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,188 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Its economically illiterate as you don't understand that we already have the most progressive taxation system in Europe; despite this being explained on-thread.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Murph85


    " progressive" do you mean the one where people refuse promotions, overtime etc. As also reported in the media. Is it that " progressive" system?

    Nobody is looking for far right. Even centrist would he to the right of anything we have now...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Murph85


    " most progressive taxation system in Europe " Losing as good as half your income over a pittance in a country woth a very high cost of living is something to boast about is it. You can tell from the responses here. Very few were contributing much to government coffers. They are probably " vat payers" though in fairness to them ...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,188 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The other repliers aren't claiming to be a huge employer when they don't actually understand taxation, though.



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