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New party vote share?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    Lpt brings in a billion or less. They pulled out what this budget? 11 billion out of their ass and you are asking how over several budgets, they can find 5 billion? Lol!


    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/budgets/budget_2023.html

    Anyone have a link for usc figures?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,099 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    It's called pay for what you get. In old money it was lumped together as domestic rates. Now it's partly LPT. But pay for what you get would a lot more meaningful.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Foreign aid point: Nonsense.

    Illegal immigrants: Leo has said in the Dail that we were sending Georgians etc straight back, this is possible. Since McEntee became minister we have rowed back on this so we’ve 1792 here that shouldn’t be.

    Anyone landing with no documentation should be immediately returned to sender. That would be 2,232 less people taking Irish taxpayers money so far this year. I’d also abolish Leave to Remain, you don’t qualify for asylum you are repatriated immediately.

    Visa overstayers who have been working illegally: arrested and held until deportation. Accounts frozen/money seized and funds taken by the state as proceeds of crime to help pay towards deportation costs.

    Tax: Never said let me pay less tax. Everyone should pay tax proportionate to their income. If I’m on a high income I should be paying high tax.

    NGO spending: We’ve multiples of the same NGOs, how many homeless one have we, mental health ones? And a whole raft of “help anyone but the Irish” ones. Would save a huge amount of money.

    Tougher sentencing costs more than what it does now, congratulations on understanding maths. However, legal aid costs us a huge amount of money. I reckon we’d be saving money with longer sentencing. Longer sentencing also stops scummer procreation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Your argument summed up in your first sentence. It’s hard to do so let’s just stay the way we are. Get off your knees mate. **** hell.


    Anyone with over 10 convictions is scum.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,691 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Yeah, you don't need a new political party - there's already three far right ones that are this reactionary and economically illiterate.

    They have no elected reps. They will never have any elected reps either, thankfully.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    One economic policy in what you quoted and that’s to improve the tax system and the tax take.

    Making more money for the state is economically illiterate now 🤣🤣🤣🤣



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,691 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Its economically illiterate as you don't understand that we already have the most progressive taxation system in Europe; despite this being explained on-thread.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    " progressive" do you mean the one where people refuse promotions, overtime etc. As also reported in the media. Is it that " progressive" system?

    Nobody is looking for far right. Even centrist would he to the right of anything we have now...



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    " most progressive taxation system in Europe " Losing as good as half your income over a pittance in a country woth a very high cost of living is something to boast about is it. You can tell from the responses here. Very few were contributing much to government coffers. They are probably " vat payers" though in fairness to them ...



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,691 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The other repliers aren't claiming to be a huge employer when they don't actually understand taxation, though.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    So let make it even MORE progressive. Let’s be a world leader in progressive taxation. What are you scared of?



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,217 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    I think people just don't understand how the word "progressive" is used in the context of taxation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,691 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I'm scared of what on earth you think progressive means, seeing as we are a world leader in it already; and you're just throwing out buzzwords without any substance here.

    Do you have any actual suggested changes, and do you have any idea what they'd bring in?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    For a renter, who may be only in an area for months to a couple of years, it's totally inequitable. The public domain is maintained from the poll tax, and ultimately the landlord benefits on the double via their asset inflating off the back of the tax paid by the renter, and with the landlord being able to command more rent deriving benefit from something they didn't pay for (on the triple if you abolish LPR wholesale).

    Think of a couple renting in a house Dublin 6 (a renter heavy postcode) from a landlord living down the country. They are already likely paying high-ish payroll tax trying to cobble together a deposit, and they are slapped with a flat tax that overwhelmingly benefits the property owner and not them.

    It also does zero to address the vexatious issue of dereliction, vacancy and the hoarding of land.

    One of the principles of taxtion is that it should first be equitable, and secondly easy to collect. Poll tax fails on both counts. You can't hide real property, and property owners are the ultimate overwhelming beneficiary of council improvements of the commons. Great idea if you want to tear up the rulebook on the social compact altogether I suppose.

    Essentially you're arguing for a second USC hypothicated for local authority expenditure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    Do you think the employees give a toss about tax free allowances etc. You are making this far too complicated. Additional hours for most of them, are at half the rate of pay. Once they hit the marginal rate, most refuse them. Makes sense to me, makes sense to them... here's a question for you. Would you work extra hours hours at half pay ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,691 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    You haven't actually ever been an employer, let alone a large industry-leading one like you claimed, have you?

    (my house deposit was primarily earned by overtime on a higher rate job, when the marginal rate was actually over 50% unlike now. Huge amounts of people work overtime at the higher rate, even if you are projecting your own views on to others)



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,099 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I haven't suggested a poll tax or LPT or domestic rates. I've suggested that householders should pay for public services received or not as case may be. You know the way you pay for your electricity and broadband and phone data. Likewise you pay for publicly supplied utilities like water, like sewage, like refuse and so on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,362 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    It's empty populism because it's easy to put down on paper but much harder to implement.

    Theses "new party" threads with all their plans a two a penny around here

    And they're all hypothetical anyway. Nobody as far as I'm aware is actually doing anything out there in the real world to get such a party off the ground. "If a new party came along and promised x, y and z they would be getting 10% of the vote right out of the gate". Why is nothing happening then?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,000 ✭✭✭downtheroad


    They didn't pull anything out of their ass. The country is currently generating exceptional tax revenues, driven largely by income tax, VAT and Corporation Tax.

    VAT is a consumer tax, and if any recession comes will likely fall. Income tax will be impacted by redundancies and layoffs, which are already starting to happen. And it is well known that our Corporation Tax take at its current levels isn't sustainable in the long run.

    So it is quite sensible of our government and finance minister to not remove LPT, VRT and USC just because other taxes are currently performing well. A broad tax base is required to prudently manage the country's finances, and at present we don't actually have that as we are too heavily dependent on Corporation Tax revenues from a handful of companies.

    In your make believe business do you generate 80% of your turnover from a couple of clients? If you do that's foolish and leaves you susceptible to shocks.

    By expanding the tax base and bringing more taxpayers into the net we can future proof the country's finances and not be overly reliant on 1 or 2 taxes or taxpayers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,604 ✭✭✭quokula


    Interesting that you openly admit you consider what you pay your employees to be “a pittance”



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    LPT largely fulfills that function already (if councils don't vote to reduce it that is) , with the added benefit that it is progressive in that it takes into account the value of the property under which the tax is collected.

    Your proposal so closely resembles another USC you'd wonder what the point is.

    It moves the burden of taxation away from passive income and passive wealth accumulation (generally regarded as a positive) and further on to people's monthly paycheque (a negative) - and it's particularly unfair on renters.

    Should a person move from Fingal to Dun Laoghaire, how does Revenue know tho assign the tax collected to DLR County council? For it to be implementable, the expenditure should follow the person(s) around the country. That's a massive administration cost to keep track of.

    I'm not saying LPT is perfect, it isn't. But flat taxes collected like a poll tax are a recipe for mass protest. If a government tried it on, the people would spit it back at them, and who could blame them?

    People need to be a bit more adult about LPT, it's an essential part of the tax and spend framework for local authorities.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    I'm saying 37k is a pittance to be taxing people half their income over..

    You all conveniently didnt comment about the link I put up a few posts back. Highlighting the pittance of a threshold before you start paying the marginal rate...



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    A person on 37k pays nowhere near 50 percent tax. Cmon now, make your point but don't be silly.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,775 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Its almost like everyone has forgotten 09 already. Our incredibly narrow tax base at the time was a huge part of the problem.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭Luxembourgo


    We need a party who

    Will increase welfare to levels that make working unattractive

    Increase demand on creaking services without investment

    Will allow multiple time offenders free without jail time

    Speak about climate change but actually invest pittance in infrastructure to support change beyond cycle lanes

    Will embrace idealogical issues the vast majority don't care about



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Seems like that’s what all the naysayers want



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,099 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    ?? LPT is effectively a flat tax - it's engineered as such for ease of collection. It's too low of course and open to be manipulated for local political gain.

    It could be abolished and all householders/ occupiers pay for public services as they are used or not. Pay by use, the polluter pays etc etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    LPT is not a flat tax, there are 19 bands dependant on the value of the property.

    Again, leaving aside the inequity of it, how precisely do you propose collecting and administering your USC mk.2?

    The government and Revenue currently can't say with any degree of confidence where each citizen currently lives. So how do you assign the tax collected to the correct local authority?

    I'll give you an example, for a good few years early in my career, all my Revenue correspondence was sent to my family home rather than the sublet I was living in at the time.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    If you have a look at the think-tank that produces that ranking, they are explicit in that they believe a competitive tax code is one with low marginal tax rates because otherwise it drives FDI elsewhere and praises relativity flat taxation counties like NZ (which isn't exactly known as an FDI destination country. In fact they are riddled with Trussonomic doctrine if you read their website.

    Ireland is a living breathing walking talking example that they are wrong.

    In any case, if we wish to bring down higher marginal tax rates, we need to start getting serious about a property tax that relives the burden on payroll taxes.



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