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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Back for what? He has no chance of playing against Aus. If he was actually going to play international rugby in this series, this weekend was it. It truly is bizarre to suggest he's better off outside the squad than in.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    Yeah Coombes was dropped, lets call it for what it is. He has the somewhat near consolation of a historic game for Munster. But missing out on caps in such a competitive backrow is a disaster for him.

    No doubt Deegan, as a Leinster player, will get plaudits for doing normal things, and that will be that for Coombes.

    Incredibly harsh given his performances in NZ were very good. Just one of those mysteries where a players face doesnt fit. we´ve seen it before with COoney, McCloskey etc. The latter, on Saturday, showed that up for what it was; nonsense.

    Doris is fast becoming one of the best number 8s in the game.

    A top class eight in international rugby needs all the attributes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    I'm willing to say that he is better off outside the squad than inside the squad.


    That's because I don't feel he would have featured either way against Fiji. He would have been a tackle bag holder.

    So I reckon he is better off playing against South Africa in the first rugby game ever in PUC. If Munster win its a game that will be talked about for a decade.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There's no mystery to any of the guys you've named. Coombes has been in plenty of squads and hasn't shown the coaches enough. This narrative of "face doesn't fit" is a complete cop out. He had a big chance last Friday night to show something, and had an awful game.

    On the other two guys you mentioned, I feel like Cooney has been discussed to death on here, and McCloskey, while definitely unlucky not have picked up some more caps, has been behind Henshaw and Aki for his position for the bulk of his career. Those two have been elite for us, so there just wasn't a huge need to look further than them. I do think it's a bit of a joke that Rory Scannell picked up more caps under Schmidt than McCloskey did, but he can't have many complaints about being behind two elite players like Henshaw and Aki.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I strongly disagree tbh. He's a brilliant offloader as well, and absolutely has a pass in him as we saw from the assist v Leinster. (And jackaller too fwiw).

    I don't think handling is what's kept him out of the squad.(And I’d be surprised if any regular watcher of Munster doesn’t see him as a quality ball handler, tbh).



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭TomsOnTheRoof


    He showed great hands in the one international he's featured in so far. He has an excellent offload too. Coombes can feel very hard done by. He's had an excellent 18 months and one poor game (in which everyone was floundering) is seemingly enough to land him in selection limbo. That's incredibly harsh, especially when the selectors haven't always adopted a similar approach with other players.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,985 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    I'm open to correction, but he's the only player dropped from the original senior squad?

    This is a management team which brought a heap of guys to South Africa for a very dubious tour right in the middle of the URC. If they want to see what a guy can do, they want to see it in a green jersey.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    its hardly a cop out, given coaches have preferences. and he had a very good game against the Maoris in NZ. Deegan didn´t. so he clearly did show them something. Deegans a solid player, but like many Leinster players there is rose tinted glasses. He´s grand like. Coombes has had very big European games. He had a big game against the Maoris, assisting two tries.

    SOme players faces clearly don´t fit. McCloskey is a prime example. he has been shoddily treated by Schmidt and Farrell has been slow to use him. Obviously Henshaw is World Class so thats one issue. All i´m saying is i think Coombes will be one of those players. It won´t matter given Doris is now undisputed first choice.

    Dropping Coombes is incredibly harsh. and if there is one criticism to be had of Irish rugby (like under so many coaches) there is inconsistent decisions. Coombes hardly the only player to dirty his bib. There has been poor performances over the last while by any number of players in any number of matches and it didn´t result in them getting the chop.

    again it doesn really matter in the grand scheme of things. you´d just hope it doesn´t affect his munster form and standing.

    Irish rugby can´t be cribbing about size and then sidelining a mobilish 6,6 115kg backrow, or a 6,4 110kg centre.

    he´s clearly not offering what Ireland want. We are looking for versatile, mobile players, with quick vision. Coombes is a slogger with a decentish pass. The great number eights are all rangy, quick, slick handlers, and good carriers.

    Heś just another in a ling line of big Irish units that for whatever reason doesn´t conform to what we expect in an Irish player. and maybe have a soft underbelly despite the size.

    Brennan, Costello, Casey, Browne, Buckley and so on.

    Luckily now we are playing quick mobile rugby, not trying to match teams. We seem to be going a path of having guys slot in. Does Deegan slot in better for Doris. Does O´Brien slot in better for Keenan. sharing similar traits and the like. take Lowry, he is a more jazzy rugby player but maybe JOB slots in better.

    It makes sense i suppose.

    I feel Deegan needs big games to justify the faith shown in him. its a long time since the Junior WC hype and he´s effectively third choice 8 at Leinster.

    I expect Coombes to have a huge game on Thursday and its possibly a challenge laid down by Andy. Maybe he doesn´t drop him completely if there is no Munster game.

    Post edited by starkid on


  • Administrators Posts: 53,825 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    He's the only one dropped, but you must also consider that Munster are the only team playing this weekend.

    But yes, the likes of Nash and Crowley etc were retained and I'm sure Munster would have liked them back.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The initial comment called him "one of the best passing backrowers in Ireland", which is a stretch I think. I didn't say he's not capable, but it's hardly his core game.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    mccloskey cant play 10 if stuck, thats a part of it

    and rory scannell is/was a very underrated player, his form fell off a bit of a cliff when munster decided to just use him to carry rather than actually use his strengths, but he is a very talented player when he is allowed to play as a second 10 - similar to frawley but less physical



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    His offloading is certainly part of his core game tho, tbh.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    There's 7 Munster players in the 39 man squad. I'd expect all of them (except maybe Nash) to feature between the two remaining games.

    Frawley is injured so I reckon Crowley will get the 22 shirt vs Fiji.

    Murray is injured so Casey is one of two scrumhalves.

    Carberry will probably start vs Fiji.

    Loughman could well start vs Fiji. No reason for Porter to start and we want to blood what looks to be our 3rd choice LH.

    Beirne and O'Mahoney could well feature vs Fiji but will definitely start vs Australia.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ah, that good old trope again, claiming it's bias in favour of Leinster based players.

    I'm sure with some guys there personality clashes etc, or something like that behind the scene, but for the most part, there isn't some massive mystery. The coaches are in the business of winning, they're going to pick the guys who they think gives them the best chance of doing that, so if they aren't picking a guy it's because they don't feel he can deliver what they want for him, or they think others are better at delivering (or bring more overall to the party).



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Scannell has never been an international quality player imo. Solid URC level player at best.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    incorrect but given how he has been used at munster for the last few seasons its understandable



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's not incorrect though. He's a good passer and distributor but hardly elite, has no particular pace to speak of, and is undersized and lacking physicality. He's got a decent kicking game, but nothing special. A solid pro, but that's it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,561 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I think Deegan is the type of lad Faz likes. Fast , skillful and has been in the system. It's worth remembering he missed an entire season with injury. Coombes played very well when Deegan was out.

    Coombes while strong, does not get around the field like Deegan. Timoney also was poor on Friday. He's still with the squad and I think it's because of his athletic ability.

    Maybe Coombes will be back soon? I would think Deegan gets into the xx111 this week.



  • Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭snow mad


    unfair for an individual if that was the case considering how the whole team played.


    but consoderimg the amount of good options for the back row it's hard to see anyone out of form or carrying a niggle travelling



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,561 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Possibly! But, Coombes may just not be the kind of player Faz wants or needs. I'd say McCloskey is in a similar situation. He only plays at 12. Others like Aki can play both center positions.

    I reckon a lad like Hodnett or Kendellen would suit Farrell.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22


    I saw this very balanced South African analysis from Saturday. Posted on the match thread but useful here also I think.




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    One thing we know for absolute certain, is that Farrell values performance in the Ireland environment above anything else when it comes to Ireland selection (very similar to Eddie Jones). That's training performance, Emerging Ireland games, 'A' games and full internationals. And Calvin Nash clearly impressed them enough to be kept on this week rather than being released to play v SA 'A'. So that's pretty brutal for Coombes. Not saying I agree or disagree, but he's been dropped.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    If his objective is too get a mention in the next Munster rugby themed musical production then he's in the right place. If his objective is to get to the RWC then he 10000% isn't.

    Post edited by Interested Observer on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    alone it stands isnt really a musical though

    he has a very good kicking game. he also has distance similar to murray off the tee. hes not a big player but hes not lacking in physicality for the game he should be playing. of course hes not elite but hes international standard



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    I think that time when the ball goes out to Hansen is a rare case of Sexton picking the wrong option. I think if he gives it to Baloucoune he's through a gap. Arendse seems to have his momentum going more towards Keenan.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    We'll have to agree to disagree. As Irish centres go, I would rank him behind all of: Robbie Henshaw, Garry Ringrose, Bundee Aki, Stuart McCloskey, Ciaran Frawley, Stewart Moore, Tom Daly, David Hawkshaw, Chris Farrell, Tom Farrell, James Hume, Jamie Osborne and Luke Marshall.

    He's a similar level to Dan Goggin.

    No point going around in circles on this though, we're obviously not going to agree.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    Ya for sure. He doesn’t often attempt the type of pass he pulled off against Leinster but he’s a major distributor in the Munster pack.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    alone it stands isnt really a musical though

    This changes everything.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    If his objective is too get a mention in the next Munster rugby themed musical production....

    And you know we'd sell that out as well. ;)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Doris was excellent on Saturday, He's undropable at 8. Coombes is gonna have to come back to Munster and play his game and show his value

    It will probably take a couple of injuries for Gav to get another proper opportunity in green.



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