Are Mick Wallace and Clare Daly Irelands greatest shame?

pixelburp · 06-11-2022 8:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119841478#Comment_119841478

What is an autopsy of events supposed to bring at this stage? The Russians are in Ukraine right now, trying to destroy the civilian energy infrastructure as of this week. They're not even trying to behave like a conventional force anymore. Worrying about the minutiae that lead to Feb 2022 and Russia invading - which smells suspiciously like it's heading towards victim blaming - adds nothing. Nobody quibbled about the Munich Agreement when the Germans entered Westerplatte.

And blaming NATO or "The West" only serves to be contrary for the sake of West European self-loathing. Why don't Wallace and Daly propose a working solution - assuming its more than, conveniently, give the bully what it wants. Funny too how these types seem incapable of giving Ukraine any agency or self-determination of their own destiny - it's America America America. As if no action was Ukraine's own. Ironically a very arrogant, patronising Western attitude really.

Cllr_Dermod_Fahy · 06-11-2022 10:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119838515#Comment_119838515

But why do they have to just comment on the Ukraine situation?

Do we really need them saying the same thing 99.9% of people are saying? Wallace and Daly are speaking uncomfortable truths.

Cllr_Dermod_Fahy · 06-11-2022 10:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119840316#Comment_119840316

She's not supporting Russia though. I don't know how people can't see that?

Yurt2 · 06-11-2022 11:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119842822#Comment_119842822

She absolutely is.

Danzy · 07-11-2022 12:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119842822#Comment_119842822

Russia are greatful for her "not support" though.

They are the only side that benefits, loyalty to mother Russia still runs very deep for many on the radical Left.

ilkhanid · 07-11-2022 1:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119841517#Comment_119841517

....not to mention preparing the way for this by invading another country in 2008 and pounding another Russian district into rubble.

ilkhanid · 07-11-2022 1:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119843285#Comment_119843285

To reverse the usual phrase she's ''praising Russia with faint damnation''.

Brussels Sprout · 07-11-2022 1:10pm

Surprised Joe Rogan hasn't had them on at this stage. They'd be right up his alley.

CalamariFritti · 07-11-2022 9:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119842339#Comment_119842339

its not an autopsy thats needed. It's just that it needs to be brought to peoples attention what happened since 2014 at the very least. Our leaders act as if February 2022 happened out of the blue. Evil mad man Putin went nuts out of nowhere.

People need to understand that this situation was helped along if not created by the very forces we are supposed to trust to get us out of this. This war could have been avoided as late as January 2022. All Russia wanted was an actual implementation of Minsk 2 and a Ukrainian neutrality guarantee and none of it would have happened. Russia would have been OK with a EU membership even. But no the US wouldn't have it. And why would they? After all they worked hard for years and years to create this situation for Russia.

And now we have a war. A war thats costs lives and prosperity. That turns what already was a country in a vey very poor economical and political situation into an actual sh1thole. On the back of its people. As always.

And so we bring ever more sanctions to Russia. Sanctions that directly create an economical and energy crisis here.

And they send ever more weapons to Ukraine. To fuel a war that has the potential to escalate to a nuclear WW3.

Fuelling a fight to the last Ukrainian to weaken Russia. In for the long haul.

You need to be very naive to believe that there is no geostrategical orchestration whatsoever at work here. Poor little Ukraine just wants to be self determined and free and the gallant west supports them as best as they can. Give me a break. Its not naive you'd need to be, its gullible and stupid you'd need to be.

And so Clare Daly calls that out. And of course people don't want to hear it. Especially if all they know about the situation is from the RTE news bulletin. But she's right and it needs to be said. It won't change a thing but it needs to be said all the same.

Galwayguy35 · 07-11-2022 9:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119844636#Comment_119844636

No I think they would be more like the kind of guest Howard Stern would have.

Nody · 08-11-2022 8:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119846885#Comment_119846885

You are right on the gullible part except you got it flipped around; you have to be very gullible if you think Putin had not planned the take over and excuse to go into Ukraine a long time before January 2022 and would let anything stop him in doing so. Do you think the military build up and planning happened over a few months? Russia has ignored Minsk 2 since day 1 and actively kept supplying the region with weapons and military support exactly with the intent to have the excuse to take over all of Ukraine to rebuild what he see's as the Sovjet glory days as his legacy. The fault lies with the person who's invading a sovereign country and no amount of excuses you pile up can excuse that. Putin leading Russia invaded a sovereign country and you can pile up excuses a mile high but that does not change that basic fact. Russia has no right or excuse to do that; Nato is never going to actively attack Russia first (defensive alliance; it's even in the damn charters) and provides zero reason for an invasion except meglomania and belief that because the country was taken over by Russia previously it should remain there. By that same token then you'd 100% support that UK invades and occupy Ireland again as well I'd presume as it falls under the same premise? UK can't allow Ireland to be independent as it may threaten UK's future outside the EU after all; better if UK invades and occupy Ireland since it's being controlled by evil EU and that's something UK can't allow...

CalamariFritti · 08-11-2022 10:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119848091#Comment_119848091

The way I see it is that there was/is a wrestle around Ukraine going on since the early nineties. Ukraine is strategically way too significant with regards to the old East/West struggle with regards to its geographic position. There are many Western/US strategic papers acknowledging this. The most obvious one with Crimea being the Black Sea harbour for the Russian marine what with access to the Med etc. It's of massive importance.

Therefore I just don't believe the gallant support line from the west. US/NATO/EU have been having their fingers in there from day one. Supporting the Maidan revolution/coup/whatever. Building up the Ukrainian forces with funds and training ever since. Countless joint manoeuvres aligning them with NATO command structures and openly saying this. Allying themselves with an openly hostile-to-Russia government. Now pouring countless of billions in there - instead of seeking an armatice/peace/compromise that stops this crap they are looking to extend this as long as possible. Trying to turn it into another Afghanistan for Russia.

I think it really is naive to think this was/is happening from the goodness of the western hearts with no strategic angle. Defending western values and democracy etc. As if those Ukrainian ultra-nationalists were in any way western or liberal or democratic.

So yes Russia is after starting a war and yes it's terrible and condemnable but don't you think they were in any way goaded/pressured into it? And US/NATO has no strategy intentions there whatsoever?

Just imagine the reverse scenario. Socialist revolution in Mexico. Next Russia goes in (not that Russia is in anyway 'socialist') and trains Mexican army and supplies billions worth of arms and starting joint manoeuvres in the gulf and at the US border. What do you think the American reply would be?

So yes the western line is one of utter hypocrisy. They are supporting a conflict to last on the back of the Ukrainian peoples lives and also on the back of our own prosperity. Playing big chess games ultimately risking all our lives.

Its sad that only Clare Daly and very few others dare to call it out actually.

20silkcut · 08-11-2022 11:39am

look at what the Russians are doing. Torturing and castrating prisoners stealing children. Putting people through filtration camps. Bombing hospitals and power stations. Absolutely Destroying the country.

The Ukranian people themselves are pleading with western countries to come to their aid. In all fairness most western countries had little or lukewarm interest in helping Ukraine in the first days and weeks of this war and were very slow to do so. To say that this is all part of an elaborate western geo strategy is dis ingenious. The help started to arrive when the Ukranian determination became apparent. And the horrific behaviour of the Russians all on the door step of Europe in full view. Helping Ukrainians was the only option. And they needed military aid more than anything else.

To not help would have been a damning stain on the humanity of Western Europe akin to turning a blind eye to Nazi horrors of world war 2.

This should not even be a debating point.

Hotblack Desiato · 08-11-2022 4:18pm

This war could have been avoided as late as January 2022. All Russia wanted was an actual implementation of Minsk 2 and a Ukrainian neutrality guarantee and none of it would have happened.

Foolish in the extreme. Putin spends months making his forces ready and then calls the whole thing off and waves a piece of paper, Neville Chamberlain-style guaranteeing peace? Do you know anything about the man at all?

Russia signed a treaty guaranteeing the territorial integrity of Ukraine in the 90s when the latter renounced nuclear weapons. How and why would Putin be trusted in any "agreement" he might make now? with a country which he has publicly said has no right to exist?

And now we have a war.

Putin has been fighting a war in Ukraine since 2014.

A war thats costs lives and prosperity. That turns what already was a country in a vey very poor economical and political situation into an actual sh1thole.

Ukraine was looking towards the West to help drag it out of the post-USSR corrupt mess Russia is still in. Putin could not tolerate that so he decides Ukraine no longer has the right to exist as a country. A democratic and economically successful Ukraine imperils his own domestic position, merely by comparison to the grave failures of his own country and leadership.

And so we bring ever more sanctions to Russia. Sanctions that directly create an economical and energy crisis here.

So we should reward Putin's war of aggression and war crimes by continuing to spend billions of euro there?

Does Claire think it's the evil West who made him blow up Nordstream as well?

Imagining that Russia under Putin could ever be a reliable trading partner never mind a good neighbour was ridiculously naive and yes Germany is the main culprit here, but they wanted the cheap gas which turned out to carry a very heavy price.

And they send ever more weapons to Ukraine. To fuel a war that has the potential to escalate to a nuclear WW3.

The alternative is that Ukraine and its people will cease to exist in any meaningful fashion. That the perpetrator of the greatest act of aggression in Europe since WWII is rewarded. What next, the Baltics? Poland? The parallels with the late 1930s could not be clearer.

You need to be very naive to believe that there is no geostrategical orchestration whatsoever at work here. Poor little Ukraine just wants to be self determined and free and the gallant west supports them as best as they can. Give me a break. Its not naive you'd need to be, its gullible and stupid you'd need to be.

You know, Russia could foil this "dastardly plot" and prevent the haemorrhaging of its economy and manpower by just...

... PULLING ITS FORCES OUT OF UKRAINE

CalamariFritti · 08-11-2022 5:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119849705#Comment_119849705

Foolish in the extreme. Putin spends months making his forces ready and then calls the whole thing off and waves a piece of paper, Neville Chamberlain-style guaranteeing peace? Do you know anything about the man at all?

Do you? Besides those nonsense propaganda pieces?

Putin has been fighting a war in Ukraine since 2014.

or maybe the Ukraine has been fighting a war against some part of their population since 2014? or maybe a bit of both?

Ukraine was looking towards the West to help drag it out of the post-USSR corrupt mess Russia is still in. Putin could not tolerate that so he decides Ukraine no longer has the right to exist as a country. A democratic and economically successful Ukraine imperils his own domestic position, merely by comparison to the grave failures of his own country and leadership.

I don't know where to start. The only thing Russia could not tolerate was a next door neighbour ruled by Russia hating ultra-nationalists, armed to their teeth by the west protected by a possible NATO membership and rearing to go. In fact Russia told us umpteenth times. Its just that nobody wants to listen.

So we should reward Putin's war of aggression and war crimes by continuing to spend billions of euro there?

I grant we probably shouldn't but what's the point if it harms us more than them?

Does Claire think it's the evil West who made him blow up Nordstream as well?

Haha, sure Russia blew up its own pipeline. Surely thats why no one (like Sweden) is telling anyone what they found out so far. because it was Russia. If you believe Russia blew up the pipelines I guess you'll believe anything and the rest of what you wrote is beginning to make sense.

Imagining that Russia under Putin could ever be a reliable trading partner never mind a good neighbour was ridiculously naive and yes Germany is the main culprit here, but they wanted the cheap gas which turned out to carry a very heavy price.

In fact Russia was an extremely reliable trading partner for decades

The alternative is that Ukraine and its people will cease to exist in any meaningful fashion. That the perpetrator of the greatest act of aggression in Europe since WWII is rewarded. What next, the Baltics? Poland? The parallels with the late 1930s could not be clearer.

a) nonsense. Like I said before and thats out there for everyone to read - no NATO membership and implement Minsk II was all that was needed to prevent this war. Again nobody wanted to hear. In fact it was put out like that officially to the Ukraine/NATO/US as late as January and was rejected by the US. Now why would they do that?

b) you must have missed the NATO bombing of Belgrade

c) nonsense again. Russia could not have been clearer about her red lines and intentions all along. And continues to be quite transparent. The problem - again - is that nobody listened/listens.

But I think we're going a bit off-topic now. Go Clare Daly!

Podge_irl · 08-11-2022 6:43pm

Ukraine was nowhere near joining NATO, are far closer to it now then they would have been had Russia not invaded, and Russia have been removing troops from the neighbouring country who actually is trying to join. Russia invaded cause nazis or something, they have been all over the place about why they did it cause the actual reason is revanchism and a desire to recreate the USSR. Also Russia spectacularly failed to implement Minsk agreements so portraying it as some easy fix is beyond ridiculous.

In fact it was put out like that officially to the Ukraine/NATO/US as late as January and was rejected by the US.

This is the same colonialist bullshit that Daly puts out. The US does not control Ukraine, they wanted to get out from under Russian influence themselves under their own agency. Her worldview is one in that somehow the US control the entire western world and is responsible for all the ills in it. Ukraine didn't want to be Russia's puppet anymore because Ukrainians wanted better and that is why Russia invaded. Daly doesn't give a **** about Ukrainians and has clearly never talked to any of them.

CalamariFritti · 08-11-2022 7:03pm

How is that colonialist bullshit? There are official communiques for everyone to read. From both sides.

And yes the Ukraine didnt reply, the US did. And yes EU/NATO is entirely in the US pocket. I mean at least to me thats as clear as anything.

It's always amazing how a group of people can look at the same thing and arrive at completely different views. And I don't mean that in a bad way. You think the same about me for sure. All good.

I don't know if Clare Daly has ever spoken to a Ukrainian but I have Ukrainian and Russian colleagues. In fact two of my Ukrainian colleagues have Russian spouses. This is far from a black & white situation.

Podge_irl · 08-11-2022 7:46pm

If the US had their way, Zelensky would be in a government in exile at the moment. It is both offensive and clearly wrong to suggest they are in control of what happens.

The US has outsized influence but it does not control European countries. Russia is pissed because it is losing its outsized influence in Ukraine and the fact they are trying to portray this as a war against "the west" just betrays they also think that the US is controlling everything. Just like Clare Daly. They are incredibly alike in their worldview.

CalamariFritti · 08-11-2022 8:54pm

I don't know are they fully controlling it but IIRC Biden (VP then) actually spoke on the Maidan Square in 2014. Nuland and Blinken were in and out the whole time. Then in the years after billions were pumped into it almost everything into the army, military advisors, joint manoeuvres with NATO, you name it. UK balls deep in it too.

Like I wrote earlier. Just imagine the reverse scenario with - say - Mexico. There would be WW3 period. We've seen what happened to Cuba. Almost WW3 then 60 years of embargo into poverty.

I know this is Clare Daly stuff and some people will outright reject it and you certainly won't ever see it on RTE. But f you're interested in a different view have a google for 'Ukraine on Fire'. Its a 2016 documentary by Oliver Stone.

ilkhanid · 08-11-2022 9:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119848370#Comment_119848370

Crapology. Afganistan? The Afghan scenario was hardly going to become relevant unless Russia became an occupying force. Poor Russia, being threatened that if it ever invaded and occupied ukraine then the West would give that nation every resource to defend itself and make Russia's occupation a nightmare. How terrible! What a vicious plan. Sure why didn't the obvious thought occur to Russia ''Let's not invade Ukraine then''? This BS borders on the bizarre nonsense we're hearing from some of the Russians that the poor, dim-witted innocents of Russia didn't even want to invade Ukraine but were lured into a cunning trap by the evil ''West'' who somehow made them mount this ''special military operation'' as a ploy to destroy Russia.

As for these ''undemocratic'' Ukrainian ultranationalists, so what? The far-right never achieved a position of dominance in Ukrainian politics so what ******* business is it of Russia's? Maybe Ukraine should have said ''We believe the existence of the Russian Imperial Legion or the National Bolshevist Party is a threat to Ukraine. We intend to invade Russia to exterminate these dangerous elements that have taken over Russia''. If anything the Ukrainian position was the more plausible one, considering that the Putinist official ideology is a version of Imperialist quasi-fascism anyway.

Podge_irl · 08-11-2022 9:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119850670#Comment_119850670

Clare Daly is on RTÉ plenty. Her speeches from the EU Parliament get lots of coverage. People reject it because it is evident nonsense, not because of "the media".

The US embargo of Cuba is wrong, however you may note that despite being easily able to conquer the place they have not invaded it. Nor did they do so during the Cuban missile crisis.

Also the subtleties of geopolitics can be complicated, but Ukraine wanting to align with the highly prosperous Western European nations, and several former Warsaw Pact countries who are experiencing significantly better lives than Russia, is in fact exceptionally simple. Ukraine doesn't want **** to do with Russia and Russia is pissed off about this. The worst provocation you could claim is that we live better lives and are encouraging Ukrainians to want a piece of that.

ilkhanid · 08-11-2022 9:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119850212#Comment_119850212

''Because Nazis or something'' These implausible excuses give the lie to every supposed reason the Russians have for invading , considering the way they change from month to month and from one spokesman to another. Yes, first it was ''Nazis'' (drug-addicted Nazis, no less). Then the Ukrainians became degenerates who had been brainwashed by the ''West'' into hating Russia. Then the Ukrainians were Russians-they just didn't know it, obviously brainwashed again. Ukraine would have to be put through a rigorous de-programming to make them realize how truly Russian they actually were (apparently some were beyond help, were obdurate-they would have to do hard labour..or worse). Then Kiril put his spoke in and others took up the cry. Now Ukraine was a decadent state infested by 'wokeness' and somehow they-never explained exactly how-would turn Russian men into Gays and Transvestites and make Russia put on Gay Pride parades. That's how it stands as of November. What's next, God alone knows. I've seen one neanderthal on the Twittersphere already claim that Ukraine was controlled by Israel. I suppose we were bound to get to the Joos, and probably, George Soros, eventually.

CalamariFritti · 08-11-2022 10:09pm

Lads you're not listening. It's there for everyone to read what Russia red lines were. They didnt begrudge anyone their potential prosperity. EU membership why not. Just not NATO and a solution for Russian majority east was needed.

All the mad Putin former USSR glory evil Russia is just nonsense talk.

I don't even know why I have to say this. This is all public information from official communiques.

@ilkhanid thats just a mad rant really I am not going to reply to that

So let's leave it at that. I like Clare Daly and what she has to say and ye don't. No problem.

ilkhanid · 08-11-2022 10:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119850968#Comment_119850968

As other posters have pointed out, NATO entry for Ukraine was not on the cards and certainly not in the near future, so this is only a Russian excuse. The best way of making sure one's neighbours don't want to join NATO is to stop threatening and invading them. You can be sure the Batic States are glad they joined NATO and you can be sure that Georgia wishes it had joined , given the chance. It didn't even make a serious effort to join, yet STILL it was invaded.

And because of Putin's idiocy, two new countries are on the point of joining NATO.Countries that hadn't even contemplated it a year ago.

Mad rant? I'm real broken up about that (sobs). Going off to lie down now.🙄

CalamariFritti · 08-11-2022 10:32pm

You either don't know or don't want to know. Just a quick google...

https://thefrontierpost.com/ukraine-to-hold-a-series-of-large-scale-military-exercises-with-nato/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lArfFvFcx3w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rg-U7uc8diQ

I'm out now

Hotblack Desiato · 09-11-2022 12:38am

NATO holding a joint exercise with a friendly non-NATO country is not that country applying to join NATO

And applications to join NATO have to be unanimously accepted - Turkey is being remarkably arsey about Sweden being allowed to join

Elmer Blooker · 09-11-2022 11:09am

Sweden has been involved in NATO winter weather war games in the far north for years now.

They are de facto members of NATO but have never signed on the dotted line which I presume has been to maintain their facade of ‘neutrality’.

They have quite an impressive arms industry too for a ‘neutral’ country.

Hotblack Desiato · 09-11-2022 11:37am

Why not? Switzerland has a large defence industry too

Just because the Irish version of neutrality is standing there with our pants down doesn't mean that's how other countries have to view it.

kksaints · 09-11-2022 11:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119852540#Comment_119852540

Ireland is more the exception than the rule with regards neutral countries.

maninasia · 16-11-2022 11:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119846885#Comment_119846885

Yes yes yes...because RUSSIA CAN BE TRUSTED.

Roighttttttt

And Russia neutrality is basically surrender your weapons.....never join the EU.....YOU WILL BE FINE

We know how that went already.

All Russia wanted was an actual implementation of Minsk 2 and a Ukrainian neutrality guarantee and none of it would have happened

Are Mick Wallace and Clare Daly Irelands greatest shame?

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