What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

It’s because I know that it’s not perfectly easy or legal that I know your ideas where you think you can ignore reality, are just the stuff of nonsense. No point in blaming Helen for anything she isn’t responsible for, same as you can’t blame anyone for anything they aren’t responsible for. Going down that route doesn’t lead to anywhere positive, and is more likely to come back to bite you in the ass when you become the target of such policies.

You’re not arguing with me when you’re trying to put words in my mouth and avoiding anything I’ve written because it’s just too long to read and boring as fcuk for you. I get that, and I’m sure you’re aware that it’s why your suggestions won’t be considered any time soon either - you’d be buried under mountains of legislation and policy documents which you don’t want to read, you just want to make demands that fit in a tweet, requiring no explanation or discussion.

It’s precisely because of that mentality that you see the country as being in a mess, and expect other people to fix it as though in reality it’s actually as easily fixed as you suggest. It might be if everyone just rolled over and let you have control of everything, but I imagine it’ll be a cold day in hell before that happens. In any case I’d give you a day before the novelty wore off and reality set in.

Of course it is perfectly easy and legal to return people with no documents back to where they came from.

It’s clearly not though, at least not as simple as you’re expecting. I’m familiar with Irish and International law, which is why I’m telling you that Mattie McGrath doesn’t know his arse from his elbow, and I certainly wouldn’t be relying on media reports as credible sources of anything. If you actually imagine the current situation is all Helen’s doing and you could do any better, then run for office at the next election yourself and see how you get on. We both know you have no intention of doing so, because you’d get nowhere, but it’s comforting at the same time to imagine you speak for the majority of people in Ireland, as long as you don’t have to take any risk or responsibility for anything when it goes tits up and you find out how restricted you are in doing anything you think is so easily done from your ill-informed perspective.

Helen’s response is too long for you to read, but here it is anyway -

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2022-10-26/145/#pq_145

If someone has destroyed their documents, the airline that has allowed them to travel have a responsibility to return them to their point of origin. There is no debate over this. It’s a fact. Even if you have a passport and a visa, immigration have the right to deny you entry, in any country.

I’m not disputing that much in your post. I’m disputing the idea that it’s at all as easy as you suggest, and certainly it’s not 100% easy or anywhere near as easy as something Helen as any direct control over.

In reality she has no control whatsoever, and neither would you in her position. You’d still have people claiming it’s easy and wondering why aren’t you taking responsibility for something which is the responsibility of another entity entirely outside of your control.

You need to show your documents when boarding the aircraft.

Bit more complex than that though if a passenger is seeking asylum -

How do refugees travel to other countries? Why don't they take the plane?

The complex answer

This involves a EU directive, the Carrier Sanctions Directive 2001/51/EC, that imposes sanctions on carriers – such as airline companies – if they transport passengers that are not in possession of valid travel documents. Penalties range from €3,000 per passenger to a lump sum of €500,000, depending on the country. Carriers will also have to cover the costs of the passenger’s return trip. This sounds like a reasonable measure to combat irregular immigration. However, it has a flaw.

Recital 3 of the directive states that signatories have to apply the directive “without prejudice to the obligations resulting from the 1951 Geneva Convention”, which includes the prohibition of refoulement. In other words, the directive should not prevent refugees from seeking asylum. But it does. Refugees fleeing conflict zones are often unable to obtain passports, let alone visas, partly because most embassies close in war-torn countries. For Syrian refugees in 2015, getting a visa in Turkey was close to impossible given the lack of resources of the embassies to process the volume of applications.

The directive leaves airline personnel to decide who is a potential asylum seeker. Imagine that. Airline staff, with no relevant experience, have 45 seconds to take a decision on who is and who is not a refugee, while embassies can take months. Carriers are threatened with fines if they allow entry to an undocumented migrant, but there are no penalties for denying entry to an asylum seeker. Thus, airline companies refuse permission to board the plane to people who don’t have valid documents. They have nothing to gain but much to lose.

To help airline staff in deciding who is eligible for asylum, EU member states have posted document experts or so-called immigration liaison officers (ILOs) at large airports. According to a report by the European Agency for Fundamental Rights (FRA), these officers can “assist airlines in establishing whether individual passengers who appear to be improperly documented are nevertheless bona fide and may be carried without incurring financial charges under carrier legislation”. ILOs have limited power, however, and can only provide airline staff with advice, leaving them with the final decision. It is thus very questionable if airline companies would take the risk of transporting an ill-documented passenger.

I was specifically speaking about air travel, where its impossible (or should be) to get a ticket, let alone board an aircraft without travel documents. I well remember trying to board an Air Lingus flight in Dublin Airport for Brussels, and which would end in Africa (Liberia) I still had 6 week's validity on my Liberian residency permit, but the Air Lingus desk in Dublin Airport did not consider that to be enough, they wanted 3 mths minimum. The check in lady had to call for some one more senior to sort it out, and this lady was not inclined to issue me with a boarding card either, until I asked her to check the previous entries, and residency permits, of which there were several 6 mthly ones. Only then and very reluctantly did she issue the boarding pass. And even at that, she warned me that in future, I needed to have minimum 3 mths residency permit stamp on my passport.

So Airlines are very strict when it comes to who they allow on their planes. It should not be possible that some one can turn up at Airport passport control without travel and identification documents, even asylum seekers. And indeed, in quite a lot of Country's that I have been in, you better not turn up without documents. Whatever your excuse.

I know you were specifically speaking about air travel though, that’s why I only included the bit about air travel.

I don’t think there’s any comparison can be made though between your experiences and the experiences of an asylum seeker who turns up at the airport with no documentation and it’s left to airport staff to decide whether they’re permitted to board the flight.

I mean, you say it shouldn’t be possible, and yet it is, which explains how a plane would land at Dublin airport with passengers on board who have no documentation. Airports would probably have cottoned onto it long before now if passengers were flushing their documentation down the toilet hoping it would never be retrievable -

https://www.rd.com/article/flush-airplane-toilet/

I don’t know the exact details of the process that’s involved tbh, but I’ll come to the reason why airports might not call ahead to inform Irish authorities of passengers arriving who are seeking asylum in a minute.

I don’t agree that we’re a light touch at all though, but it’s interesting that you mention South Africa is a safe country. It is, as far as the Irish Department of Justice are concerned for the purposes of immigrants from that country who are seeking asylum, but then from the Department of Foreign Affairs perspective and the idea of tourists going in the other direction, they advise the following -

Security Status - High degree of caution

https://www.dfa.ie/travel/travel-advice/a-z-list-of-countries/south-africa/

The reason I mentioned it was interesting though is because there’s a member of my team lives in South Africa, and she’s never had any problems, not least because of the fact that she’s white and speaks Afrikaans, lives in the nice part of town, can’t remember exactly where, but she does alright.

The same thing cannot be said of black South Africans though, which is an issue when Ryanair asks them to take a language test before boarding a flight -

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-61703174.amp

And for asylum seekers coming from South Africa, the issues are more confounding again, and you remember I said I’d come back to why airports aren’t likely to give Irish authorities a courtesy call? It’s because their applications for international protection are made in Ireland and processed by the Department of Justice -

“All applications for international protection made in Ireland, regardless of the nationality of the applicant, are processed under the International Protection Act 2015 and in accordance with international and EU law,” he said.

“Every application is assessed individually and decided on its own merits.”

https://businesstech.co.za/news/lifestyle/336423/south-africans-are-applying-for-asylum-in-ireland/

Just because a country may be regarded as a safe country isn’t an immediate impediment to anyone seeking asylum. There may be other reasons for seeking asylum in individual cases which may be taken into consideration.

And as for whether Ireland is a light touch in this regard, I don’t agree. We’re quite bureaucratic in our approach, which is one of the reasons for considerable delays in processing applications. That, and of course when applicants are entitled to appeal the decisions of the International Protection Office and the Minister for Justice -

The High Court has rejected a gay man's challenge against a decision denying him international protection and asylum status in the State.

The man, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, arrived in Ireland in 2018 from Georgia.

He applied for international protection from the International Protection Office (IPO). His application was refused.

He appealed that decision to the International Protection Appeals Tribunal.

In its ruling last year, the Tribunal upheld the IPO's decision that he is not given refugee status nor subsidiary international protection.

The man, who is aged in his 20s, then brought High Court judicial review proceedings against the Tribunal, Ireland and the Attorney General, seeking to have the refusal set aside on grounds including that certain findings made by the tribunal in relation to his claim were irrational.

In his ruling, the judge said that the reasons given for the delay were lacking in detail and the man was bound by the actions of his agent.

Given the circumstances and in particular the significant delay in the case, the court was not prepared to extend time to allow the man to bring his challenge.

While that brought the action to a conclusion, the judge added that it rejected the man's claims that the Tribunal's decision was irrational or that the Tribunal had acted in breach of fair procedures.

The conclusions it drew regarding the man's claims were entirely lawful, the judge concluded.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/amp/ireland/high-court-dismisses-gay-mans-challenge-against-state-refusal-to-grant-him-asylum-1285286.html

The one case that always makes me laugh though is the one where the Judge, Justice Max Barrett, expressed incredulity at how the State conducted its investigation and questioning of the applicant. The Judge refused the appeal, but highlighted the actions of the State in what he described as ‘risking falling short of the moral ideal of an asylum regime’. It was the most polite way I’d ever heard anyone describe such fcuk acting and taking the piss -

However, Mr Justice Barrett made some notable comments on the Minister’s opinion that Mr X’s was not bisexual. Despite recounting several sexual encounters with men, the Minister argued that it was not credible that a man raised in a “restrictive environment would engage in behaviour both unacceptable and outlawed in the society in which he lives”. The judge criticised this point, noting that growing up in a difficult environment did not mean that a person will avoid expressing their sexuality. The court said that the Minister should be aware of this, considering how many people grew up in Ireland when homosexuality was outlawed but still expressed their sexual orientation.

Further, the Minister had determined that Mr X would not have naked pictures of himself and his partner on his mobile phone because it could lead to a prison sentence in Nigeria. Again, the judge rebutted this point, stating that if the mere prospect of getting into trouble meant that a person would not commit a crime, then no crimes would ever be committed.

Finally, the court was critical of the Minister’s position that Mr X had not sought the assistance of LBGT rights organisations or attended gay bars in his first few months in Ireland to support a finding that he was not bisexual. The court pointed out that many people go through their lives without becoming involved in rights organisations. Further, the “the notion that a poor man seeking asylum would have money to throw about in bars/clubs speaks for itself.”

https://www.irishlegal.com/articles/high-court-state-risks-falling-short-of-moral-ideal-over-treatment-of-lgbt-asylum-seeker

On that last point, I can just imagine the Judge, questioning his own life choices that he ended up in such a position having to endure such nonsense 😂

I’ve no idea tbh, I mean there are literally thousands of cases every year. I don’t expect mainstream media to be able to keep up with them all, so it highlights the ones where there might be something unusual or unique about them, which is generally how the public hears about those sorts of stories. That’s why I also don’t agree that mainstream media is only interested in pushing a particular narrative - they’ll publish whatever they imagine generates revenue, usually in such a way as to maximise and capitalise on public outrage.

No idea about yer man from Killiney, but I get the general idea of what you’re saying anyway, and tbh all I can think is good luck with that 👍

I just think it’s wishful thinking, knowing what I know of NGOs and how they operate and the absolute mammoth task you’d be considering taking on. Even considering the number of Irish people employed in the practice of law in this country, about 10,000, give or take, that number is dwarfed by the number of people employed in various NGOs providing all sorts of services to the State -

People

Irish nonprofits employ 164,922 people, up 3% on the number we reported in 2020, comparing like with like. Most of the increased employment is in large or medium-sized nonprofits.

In 55 higher education and major health and social care (“Section 38”) organisations, 67,544 employees are paid as though they were public servants.

48,668 people work in 1,734 nonprofits where the State is the principal source of income.

The remaining 48,710 work in nonprofits where the State is the minority funder or where there is no State funding at all.

Funding

The State is the biggest individual source of funding to the nonprofit sector, but nearly 80% of State funding is directed at just over 100 medium and large nonprofits, mostly in service fees to health and social care, higher education and local development.

In advocacy, law, politics, professional, and vocational organisations, the balance of income is mainly derived from earned revenues whereas philanthropy, voluntarism and international organisations are most heavily reliant on fund-raised income and philanthropic donations.

More than 220 Government departments or agencies including local authorities provided at least €6.2bn in fees or grants to nonprofits in Ireland during 2019.

https://benefactslegacy.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/benefacts-nonprofit-sector-analysis-2021.pdf

That’s just giving you some idea of the numbers of mostly Irish people and the funding they receive from the State, none of whom would support your idea of them either losing any funding, or employment, and they’re all voters, and there’s many of them involved in politics at both local and national levels, some at international level. You just wouldn’t stand a chance, there’s no way of suggesting otherwise.

I was at one stage involved in both social care and education for a number of years, and my experiences in both areas suggests that while there are many people at the bottom and mid-levels who are interested in doing good and helping other people, the management in these organisations are often more interested in helping themselves. I’m not involved with them any more because while I’m still involved in helping people, I’m not interested in supporting organisations where people appear to be only interested in helping themselves by claiming to be providing support services to their ‘clients’ and ‘service users’.

It wasn’t just their personal politics that I found off-putting (they’re mostly of a leftist socially progressive bent in my experience - not my cup of tea tbh), but it was their disdainful attitude towards the people they claimed to be supporting, was the main reason I figured I couldn’t do this any more. I developed an intense dislike for their inauthenticity and the way they appeared to be more interested in being perceived as ‘professionals’, when in reality they were anything but. The whole fakery and trying to fit in eventually just made me realise I actually didn’t want any part of it, because none of it seemed to be about helping anyone but themselves.

That’s why I say good luck to you, because I know from experience that you haven’t a hope, and there aren’t many Irish people are going to be interested in supporting your ideas either if they’re not personally benefiting from them in some way.

Random question

If somebody was in Ireland legally on a holiday visa and they then buy a ticket to the USA. They go up to US customs/immigration at Dublin airport and claim asylum.

Where do they go whilst their case is heard?

Ireland a world leader in cultural enrichment now....apparently we are considered a key centre for "Black Axe" gangs....how proud it makes one feel!

Do I like all the good things about Multiculturalism? Yes.

Do I agree that there are many people, but not all from other countries who have enriched Ireland? Yes.

Do I think we have made a complete mess of this country by increasing the population at a stupid rate through uncontrolled mass immigration? Yes.

Do I think that my quality my life has been compromised by the above? Yes.

Reading about maternity hospitals in Dublin being so short staffed to an extremely dangerous level. Also about unqualified people being allowed to teach in schools. Unable to afford to live in Dublin because of cost of living. It's all a crazy merry go round!