What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

None the less, we hear a lot about the "Undocumented" even after a long delay and then being refused permission to remain cannot be removed simply because they have no documents, therefore no place to send them. This cannot be possible with air travel, if you arrive by air, then the Airline has a vast amount of personal information on you. And with the Passport being the most important document, which in itself contains plenty of data, including biometric. So, if a passport check on leaving the aircraft is not possible, a simple questionnaire when presenting at passport control would close that particular loophole. I mean it's bad enough when an asylum gets leave to remain due to it being unsafe in his home country, death threats etc. Yet on receiving leave to remain, he / she promptly goes home on holidays.

Just one question for you Jack....how did they get on the aircraft without documentation???

Ok, and maybe they cannot ( or can) travel while their case is being heard, but there are cases where after getting citizenship, they have returned to their so called "Dangerous" Country's, which proves their application was false, and therefore illegal, I presume.

Straight up answer jm - I have no idea!

I don’t think travelling back home would prove anything one way or another about their application either tbh. That kind of reasoning is similar to the case earlier where they argued that because the applicant wasn’t out in gay bars, he couldn’t be bisexual and therefore his application was made under false pretences. As the Judge in the case said -

Finally, the court was critical of the Minister’s position that Mr X had not sought the assistance of LBGT rights organisations or attended gay bars in his first few months in Ireland to support a finding that he was not bisexual. The court pointed out that many people go through their lives without becoming involved in rights organisations. Further, the “the notion that a poor man seeking asylum would have money to throw about in bars/clubs speaks for itself.”

You’re doing similar in using yourself and your own experiences as a reference, when it’s not you but an entirely different person in entirely different circumstances - the main differences being that you were still travelling with documentation, and you weren’t seeking asylum in another country. The Judge was putting himself in the position of an asylum seeker to demonstrate his point that there was a far more reasonable conclusion other than the assumptions the IPO officials were making.

I know you’re speaking from your experience, and I’m not dismissing your experiences either which is vastly more experience than my own, which amounts to one outbound flight to Corfu and an inbound back to Dublin, nothing of which I can actually remember other than I’d a note from the Cappagh to say I’d steel pins in my hip cos I figured I might need it for the metal detectors. Turned out I didn’t need it at all after - I tried to present it but they just waved me on. The only other thing I remember were the weather was ridiculous 44 degrees heat, but there’s no way I was giving up my jeans and new rocks boots, and you couldn’t flush the toilets, and I wish I hadn’t bought that dodgy melon off a fruit seller on the beach. Oh and I’m useless at doing currency conversion, handing over the equivalent of €12 for drinks because the Drachma looked like fivers… but other than that like, the people I met were great craic. I’m sure they loved me too… for throwing money away like it was going out of fashion 😂

The point I’m trying to make is that we’d be comparing apples and oranges trying to compare our experiences with an asylum seeker or a refugee and imagining what we would or could do in those circumstances, as if that’s the same as actually doing it, and expecting we would get away with it. I’m fairly certain that as many thousands of asylum seekers are successful, the vast majority - aren’t, as evidenced by this article from 2016 when 90% of asylum seekers applications were rejected -

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/ireland-refuses-asylum-to-90pc-of-applicants-35229842.html

The numbers of applications for asylum since then have increased tenfold to over 10,000 I think is the figure in 2022, with about 40% travelling without documentation. I think it was just over 3,000 have arrived without documentation, so while it certainly might seem impossible to travel without documentation, the fact that there were over 3,000 people able to do it in 2022 suggests evidence that even if it’s never happened to you or I, it’s possible to do it. The only thing I can’t explain is how, and all I’ve heard is how it’s impossible to do it, in spite of the fact that 3,000 people have done it in 2022 alone.

As an asylum claimant, to leave the State during the asylum process in the absence of explicit approval from the Minister of Justice is considered an offence under the Intentional Protection Act 2015 as legislated for in subsection 6, Repeals and Revocations. Asylum advocacy organisations advise applicants of this issue quite thoroughly, that said, anecdotally, Civil Servants in the Departments of Justice, Foreign Affairs and Social Protection will be able to attest to your contention that, on receiving one form or other of protected status, recipients often return to their country of origin for a visit within a year or two, regardless of citizenship, protected status is in itself sufficient. Remember, DFA chartered a flight from Nigeria during COVID, it experienced issues with Afghan nationals with Irish residency during the march on Kabul as well.

Even when their sole claim and justification for Asylum is the fact that their very lives are in danger in their own Country? Very strange situation...."I have to flee because I will be killed otherwise, I'm being persecuted because of my sex, religion etc. (insert justification of choice) Yet when I get leave to remain, I travel back home, back into the same life-threatening situation I am claiming protection from? Sorry, that's a scam. People claim asylum for different reasons, but when the persecution claim is used, and afterwards the claimant travels back home, he/she should not be allowed back.

Aye I get where you’re coming from jm - according to international law it’s permissible, but it shouldn’t be. The only thing I can say is I’m not opposed to it in law, but in practice I think there’s a definite need to ensure people travelling have valid documentation so they’re not being taken advantage of by people smugglers and those involved in organised crime - the transportation of immigrants in shipping containers being just one of the another of the common examples as the refugees in Calais.

A few truck drivers I know, both Irish and International drivers, are looking for alternative employment opportunities because they don’t want the risk of being inadvertently caught up in these schemes. This happened just a month after the incident in which Vietnamese immigrants were found dead in a sealed container -

https://www.irishnews.com/news/republicofirelandnews/2019/11/21/news/16-people-found-alive-in-sealed-container-on-ferry-to-rosslare-1771975/

There are all sorts of checks which take place, but criminals are always looking for means to get around any measures to stop them from transporting people from one country to another and while legislation is all good in theory, it’s useless without adequate funding and resources being provided to support it. I don’t blame immigrants looking to make a better life for themselves for that, I blame the Governments of countries which seek to make it more difficult, engaging in a sort of cat and mouse nonsense with organised crime gangs profiting from human trafficking.

Ohh Geert 😁

I see no reason why we couldn’t aim to do both, at the same time, if we had endless resources we could indeed increase deportation rates to 100%, while also continuing to monitor the status of people granted leave to remain and issued with a travel document to return home for the reasons given in their application for a travel document. If they’re granted refugee status it’s a similar process, just that they then have the right to travel home, maybe to see their relatives and loved ones while they’re waiting for their applications for refugee status to be considered and perhaps for them the risk of returning home for a short period is worth it.

We could of course speculate all night on their reasons for returning home and putting their lives at risk having been granted asylum, refugee status or leave to remain, but I wouldn’t immediately be jumping to conclusions based upon assuming any ill intent without some form of sufficient credible evidence, and if that existed in any particular case, it’s reasonable to assume they wouldn’t have been successful in their application for asylum in the first place, cos that’d mean that the IPO, AGS and all the other organisations and agencies involved are staffed by inexperienced incompetents. I’m just not sure I’d go that far 😂

There’s no getting away from the fact that it’s entirely speculative, not just to an extent, but entirely so. I mean, we could both point to anecdotal examples, like I did earlier too in the thread when I mentioned one of the guys I work with who returned to Afghanistan after 10 years, and while visiting family, they were amused by his jumping every time he thought there was an explosion after going off. He’d actually forgotten what daily life was like for his family - they’d become accustomed to it, so where he saw danger, they weren’t so concerned. The point being that it depends upon who’s making the assessment.

When it comes to assessments made by IPO staff though, well we’ve seen anecdotal evidence of their handiwork earlier in the thread with the example of the applicant who they found it incredible he hadn’t approached any LGBT organisations and wasn’t out partying in clubs and bars! It’s indicative of the mentality of some of their staff, but again I just wouldn’t be so eager to tar them all with the same negative opinion of their work ethic. It’s called giving people the benefit of the doubt, and it’s an important principle in law.

I’m not familiar with the individual members of the panel so much that I could suggest they’ve all been recruited from advocacy organisations, I’ve no idea what their general political leanings are or their abilities. I do know though that they’re required to have at least a passing familiarity with the law as part of their duties to the Minister -

http://www.ipo.gov.ie/en/IPO/Case%20Processing%20Panel%20Advert.pdf/Files/Case%20Processing%20Panel%20Advert.pdf

Of course that doesn’t preclude the possibility of some of them introducing their own personal stamp of authority on their work in the form of being ball breakers, just for the sheer hell of it, or fluffy headed types with a saviour complex and more issues than Ireland’s Own, yes I’m willing to admit there’s no shortage of those types of people working in that space, but I take heart in the fact that at least there are balances and checks which exist in the form of being able to objectively justify their reasoning for denial of an application.

If you’d care to look at it objectively, there’s a legitimate argument can be made that due to their incompetence, they’re the cause of long delays and appeals in the applications process because of their refusal of an application, which the applicant is entitled to appeal. Denial of that right to any applicant, as some people are arguing in favour of, just wouldn’t fly, because it would be an immediate violation of Irish and International Human Rights Law. It’s the sort of suggestion only someone who is incompetent could come up with.

For what it’s worth though, the IPO have recently announced a change in regulations which means applicants for asylum from safe countries at least, will only have to wait WEEKS for their applications to be processed, which is intended to cut down on the delays of MONTHS waiting for their applications to be processed -

From 8th November 2022 new procedures will be introduced in the International Protection Office to accelerate the process for making a protection application in Ireland. The introduction of these new procedures are in parallel with a commitment to significantly increase the resources available for the international protection system in Budget 2023.

The main purpose of these new regulations is to establish an accelerated process for international protection applicants from safe countries of origin.

From Tuesday 08 November 2022 any applicant for International Protection attending at the reception of the International Protection Office (IPO) will complete a preliminary interview and will also be required to complete the International Protection Questionnaire (IPO2) regarding their application and the reasons they are looking for protection. 

The International Protection Office will have Translation services available to support applicants in completing their International Protection application on the day. 

The introduction of the new procedure will allow for a person to have their case dealt with in a more timely manner. Applicants from a safe country of origin will also receive their interview date on the day they apply for international protection which will reduce their waiting time for an interview to a matter of weeks.

http://ipo.gov.ie/

Q. Why are these Regulations being introduced now?

A. 2022 has seen a significant rise in applications for International Protection, with more than 11,000 applications to made to date. More than 25% (over 2,800) of these application are coming from Safe Countries of Origin. The increase in applications has had an impact on processing times.

http://ipo.gov.ie/en/IPO/European%20Communities%20Regulations%202022.pdf/Files/European%20Communities%20Regulations%202022.pdf

Given the median processing time in 2013 was 36 weeks, and even that was well outside the expected time frame of 24 weeks for processing applications, I think it’s reasonable to suggest that the numbers have risen significantly since then, and the issue now isn’t one of the suggested competence of any of the members of the IPO panel; it’s one of a lack of resources when each case is required to be properly investigated and evaluated before a final decision is made -

The median processing time to a final decision on an asylum application in 2013 was 36 weeks. Some cases can take significantly longer to complete due to, for example, delays arising from medical issues or because of judicial review proceedings. All asylum applications and appeals are processed in accordance with the Refugee Act 1996 and other relevant statutory provisions. High quality and fair decision-making in all cases continues to be a key priority at all stages of the asylum process.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2014-03-11/398/

That’s why I’m reluctant, from an outsiders perspective, to suggest that there are any easy solutions that can be so quick and simple to implement as people here are suggesting, and certainly I’m unwilling to cast aspersions on the people involved in the asylum process as a whole on the basis of any given particular anecdote, but it does beg the question of your opinion - if you’re of the opinion that the members of the IPO panel are incompetents recruited from advocacy organisations, then which advocacy organisation would you suggest the members of the panel who handled Mr. X’s case were recruited from, the Iona Institute?

https://www.irishlegal.com/articles/high-court-state-risks-falling-short-of-moral-ideal-over-treatment-of-lgbt-asylum-seeker

It’s a rhetorical question, the point being that one of the only ideas I’m interested in advocating is the idea that we shouldn’t be encouraging the idea of making decisions based upon prejudice, and certainly not in absence of the facts, which only leads to speculation based upon prejudice, and that never bodes well for any society, let alone any suggestion that it should form the basis of any proposed legislation, not if we’re actually serious about learning from the intended consequences of harmful legislation in our own past which, even today we’re still trying to rectify and make right for those people who suffered harm because of legislation borne of prejudice and discrimination against a particular group of people in Irish society on the basis of characteristics which it was argued were judged to be immoral and destructive to Irish society -

https://www.gov.ie/en/consultation/bfca9-targeted-public-consultation-to-inform-the-final-recommendations-of-the-working-group-to-examine-the-disregard-of-convictions-for-certain-qualifying-offences-related-to-consensual-sexual-activity-between-men/

You can full stop as much as you want, that doesn’t change the fact that 3,000 undocumented immigrants didn’t just drop out of the sky and land In Dublin airport in 2022 alone. They travelled here, from another country, by airplane. How they managed to do it, is the subject of an ongoing investigation by the Department of Justice, and I’m certain you’re not in any position to know any better than the Department of Justice how anyone is managing to get from another country to Ireland undocumented.

They’re still not permitted entry when they do disembark from the plane. They are detained until their claim for asylum has been processed and either they are permitted leave to remain, or their applications is rejected, and then they have the right to appeal, and if that’s rejected, unless there is any new information which supports their claim, they’re deported.

The idea of claims being assessed ‘rapidly’ in that context, is relative, as it can take anywhere from weeks to months for their claim to be processed.

So do people just walk to the airport , say I’m seeking asylum and I want to go to Ireland and I have no documents

here’s your ticket , have a nice flight

I don’t believe that

Yes, nobody is waiting around for it to happen that you’ll eventually be right some day. There are numerous contributing factors to the issues we see in Germany, Sweden, UK, France, Denmark, Spain, Italy, etc. Immigration is just one of those factors. Anyone could do the same as you’re doing if they were to look at Ireland the same way you do. Hell at one stage there for a while a few years back there were people trying to convince others that Ireland was a ‘rape culture’. They couldn’t be taken seriously either.

Yes some people are conspiracy nutjobs, some have vested interests, some have angles, some have an agenda.

But you can't always discount a story or images simply because you do not like or rate the source.

Sometimes they may be shedding light on something that others refuse to do so.

I think it is now the norm, and a modern narrow minded view of the world, where people totally discount everything from some sources because they happen to be with counter views.

Some of us can actually look at both the Daily Mail and The Guardian.

BTW the images above does not mean that every immigrant or asylum sseker is out fighting in the street in broad daylight, but it certainly means these people are.

And we the taxpayers of this country of this country are footing the bill for their free stay in this country.

We have enough of our own leeching classes who are fond of anti social behaviour without spending valueable resources importing any more.

Of course people like you just seem to want to add someones more exotic to the problems.

It almost appears as if you have a hatred for your own people and want to see them negatively affected.