Boards DCM22 Graduates Thread - A Deeper Understanding

Lazare · 09-11-2022 8:13pm #1

Welcome all to the 2022 edition of the DCM Graduates thread. (Open to one and all, whether you ran DCM or not)

Due to a certain global event it’s been three years since the wonderful stewardship of @Singer saw the 2019 newly minted marathoners capitalise on their hard fought fitness and go on to build on it with excellent advice and superbly designed training plans.

The ‘DCM Graduates thread’ was first a thing in 2011 when @Younganne, unwilling to let the flame of buzz, excitement and camaraderie that had developed in her mentored novices thread go out, kept that flame going and created a prototype whattsapp group, a thread to keep in touch with all of her newfound friends, to bounce off each other and keep up with each other’s training and exploits.

It became a tradition.

In 2016 a superb contributor to this forum, a renowned running coach Myles Splitz (posting currently under the handle @E.coli ) created a set of incredibly well thought out training plans, specifically tailored to marathon graduates. It took things to the next level. I will link to them, and talk more of them below.

I’m incredibly humbled and honoured to be selected to steward this year’s Grads thread and help you all through the next phase of your running journey, to maybe help you capitalise on all of that blood sweat and sacrifice that rewarded you with one of the best days of your lives.

I mentioned just last week on your novices thread about the value of the hive mind of the boards athletics forum. With that in mind I will be joined in here by many more folks willing to and capable of giving quality guidance, more than able to answer questions that I may not be able to, about the plans, and about training in general.

A brief little bit about me.

I began doing this crazy thing we all love in January 2016. Jan 1st to be precise. The only new year’s resolution I’ve ever ever stuck to 😁. C25K and on my way. Signed up to parkrun that March and ran one around Paddy’s day in 28:30ish, needing to stop for a few seconds during it.

I began running with a neighbour early mornings twice a week (with parkrun at the weekend) and around June or so he asked me to do DCM with him. I can still remember how loud I laughed.

There was no way in my mind I was capable of running a marathon. The longest I had ran at that point was about 7km. I went to spectate at it though.

I stood at Walkinstown roundabout and watched as people of all shapes, sizes and ages ran past with smiles on their faces, at that point on the course a distance three times longer than I had ever ran. It was truly inspirational for me. I signed up for 2017 the following week. A few weeks later I searched out the boards athletics & running forum. In hindsight the single best running decision I’ve made.

Signing up to @Wubble Wubble’s 2017 mentored novice thread and absorbing the truly incredible advice over those months ensured DCM 2017 will always be one of the best days of my life.

The boards hive mind, that concentrated depth of knowledge combined with a spirit of altruism and a genuine willingness to see people progress has benefited me no end over the years since, and it will you too. For absolute sure. The thread title is the name of my favourite album, by War On Drugs, and given the goal is for you guys to all stick around, to benefit from and add to that depth of knowledge it felt pretty fitting.

The Boards Graduate Plans – Myles Splitz

Whether you’re looking to continue on with the marathon as your focus, or switch it up to chase a pb over a shorter distance, the Grads plans have exactly what you need to get you there. There are 4x 14 week training plans covering all distances from 5k up to the 26.2, with an all important six week base phase in there too.

That base phase is what we’re going to focus on though, and is what I will be recommending people just off the back of a marathon block should initially follow. Although there is absolutely no rush to begin, in fact it’s totally acceptable and no real harm to totally scale things back until you feel fully recovered.

You may wonder to yourself why you would need to begin base training after spending the whole summer building fitness. We tend to think of base training as something you’re required to do before a specific block of training, after some prolonged downtime or low volume. That’s true, it is.

In our case though, after we’ve been through tough months of intense training it’s a gentle way to maintain that fitness, and to build on it, safely. We can still shoot for the moon at parkrun occasionally, at Jingle Bells or at wherever we want to chase those endorphins (within reason obv).

The prudent thing though to do is to gently build, get ourselves to New Years with a strong solid base of fitness, pick a target and train hard for it. Rather than jumping straight into another intense specific block.

The plans may contain some terminology that’s new to you, fire the questions in here, let’s get the thread buzzing.

You’re of course totally welcome to follow your own rules, your own goals and plans, the main thing is that we get discussion going, and help each other along our way.

The very first thing you need to do is to ascertain your training paces. The most important of which is your easy pace. Easy Easy Easy, it’s all about the Easy. It’s been drummed into you for months but be warned, I’m gonna keep banging that drum 😀. Easy miles are the absolute backbone of your fitness. Heed what the Tinman calculator tells you is your easy pace.

Link to the pace calculator – https://runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php

Link to the Boards Grads Plans – https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOkLQ_a9NHWe97yaRkfF6ArFmCHmtf9y1tU0LR7uMr8/edit#gid=144772219

So, it would be really wonderful if you guys continued your running journey with us, got involved here and shared your goals and your training with your fellow boardsies. As I’ve mentioned, doing so will strengthen you immensely as a runner, both physically and mentally.

A couple of questions for you to get things going.

Now that you’ve completed the marathon, what’s next, what are your immediate goals?

What is the pinnacle of what you aspire to achieve with running? Dream big with this one, and have huge confidence in yourself.

Out of all the things you had control over, what would you have done differently in the lead up to your marathon?

I’m incredibly excited to get this underway, and am excited too to watch and be part of your progress.

The tradition now is to sign off with an inspirational quote. The theme of this one is confidence.

The most valuable attribute you can have, and can learn, in running and in all aspects of your life is confidence. Belief. Quiet inner confidence and belief. When the pain comes on hard, one mile into a 5k pb effort, as it should, belief and inner confidence is what deals with it and powers you through.

“If you hear a voice within you say ‘you cannot paint,’ then by all means paint, and that voice will be silenced.” –Vincent Van Gogh

Kellygirl · 09-11-2022 10:13pm

Delighted to see you setting up this thread Lazare. You’ll be great.

I love those graduate plans. I followed them in 2019 and PB’d over every distance using them. I started with the Base plan, then the 5-10Km and then the Half Marathon and raced 5km, 5mile, 10Km, 10 mile and 2x Halves in that order as I did them and the runfastcoach calculator gave me predicted times for each distance based on the previous race and the times were spot on for every race. Would recommend them to anybody to follow. I had a bit of work to do slowing down to proper easy pace at the time but it did me the world of good.

Lazare · 09-11-2022 10:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119855329#Comment_119855329

Thanks K, your experience and knowledge will be so valuable to this year's grads.

elainecw · 09-11-2022 11:00pm

These look great, look forward to following them ! Tested pos for covid day after DCM so waiting to jump into base plan! Thanks for sharing 👍

Lazare · 09-11-2022 11:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119855538#Comment_119855538

Brilliant stuff Elaine, and welcome aboard. Recover well after the dreaded covid, although your timing with it was lucky. I hope it's not hit you too badly.

Make sure you're well recovered before beginning even the base plan, there's no harm at all to hold off as long as you need.

Let us know how you got on at DCM, how the day went for you, and your build up.

Pawwed Rig · 10-11-2022 6:24am

I ran my first marathon in DCM this year. I will post my journey to that when I have more time. My immediate goal is Belfast on 30 April.

Thanks Lazare for stepping up to be a leader in the running community

scotindublin · 10-11-2022 6:27am

Great to see you taking on the role of Mentor to the Graufuates of 2022.

I was hoping that it was going to be you, your enthusiastic and positive approach is exactly what is needed to follow up on the excellent foundation laid down by E who done a super job with the DCM group this year.

I will be flicking in and out of the thread to see how everyone is doing and if I can be of any help just let me know.

Good luck to all on the next stage of your journey.

C

Laineyfrecks · 10-11-2022 7:11am

Delighted to see this up & running, you were the perfect choice. As already said your enthusiasm & positivity is something that needs to be shared. Very best of luck & anything I can help with just ask.

ariana` · 10-11-2022 9:26am

Great to see this up and running again and nobody better to mentor it than @Lazare with a wealth of running and life experience - good and bad, ups and downs. The Grads plans have helped countless runners achieve PBs over the years, a really solid place to start for anyone who is wondering 'what next' after DCM or has been left feeling a little bit of post DCM blues. Best of luck to all.

PaulieC · 10-11-2022 10:31am

I am liking the War On Drugs reference in the title. 👌

Dublinlad1989 · 10-11-2022 1:21pm

Delighted this has been set up!

DCM was my first marathon and it won't be my last! I've well and truly got the running bug. I'm signed up to 2 Marathons next years (Manchester in April and Dublin in October)

Now that you’ve completed the marathon, what’s next, what are your immediate goals?

Keep a solid base of training until i start my 18 week training block for Manchester in December. Focus on increasing my speed and incorporate a lot more tempo runs and PMP runs in this training block. I used Hal Higdon which was great but i could have benefitted from a more detailed plan.

I've signed up with a running coach so he has outlined a plan for me and once Manchester is completed i'll be looking for PB's in all race types. Most of my previous PB's are from 2019 and i know with a solid training plan I can easily achieve these.

What is the pinnacle of what you aspire to achieve with running? Dream big with this one, and have huge confidence in yourself.

The long term goal is to run a last man standing race/ultra marathon (100 Miles) in the next few years. Outside of that it would be the NYC Marathon.

Out of all the things you had control over, what would you have done differently in the lead up to your marathon?

Start earlier!!! I kept putting off my training and only really got serious at the end of July which was not enough time for a decent training block for the time i wanted. There were lots of things out of my control as well (Covid 7 weeks prior to DCM)

Adiaga 2 · 10-11-2022 1:59pm

Thanks @Lazare for taking this on. Count me in. I only found out there was such a thread last week thanks to @Laineyfrecks on the novice thread.

Now that you’ve completed the marathon, what’s next, what are your immediate goals?

I'd really like to build on the fitness gains I feel I made during the marathon training block. I had a quick look at the plans and I'd be very interested in starting the 10km plan towards the end of this year. I usually do a local charity 10km in March so a PB there would be something to aim at. The base plan looks interesting too. Only slight problem I see is the Saturday and Sunday runs - not sure how often I'd be able to do both, with family commitments.

What is the pinnacle of what you aspire to achieve with running? Dream big with this one, and have huge confidence in yourself.

I'd like to achieve a sub-4hr marathon in Dublin - ideally in 2023. (then maybe find another pinnacle)

Out of all the things you had control over, what would you have done differently in the lead up to your marathon?

Maybe just enjoy the process a bit more - especially towards the end. I was fearful of picking up an injury. This was from around september - so I can't even blame taper madness 🙂

Thanks again @Lazare . I look forward to the challenge of thriving Under The Pressure(sorry..wrong album 😊) of new running goals. 👍️

MisterJinx · 10-11-2022 2:44pm

Well done @Lazare for putting your hand up and doing this 👍️

Now that you’ve completed the marathon, what’s next, what are your immediate goals?

Just started back running a bit and had intended to just up the easy mileage for the end of the year and back to running 4 or 5 days a week. Just trying to get my toe to heal a little bit first. Was looking at the Jingle Bells but it's sold out now so will probably just try and get a park run in to see where my 5K is now.

Signed up for Dublin next year but I may be pacing my wife so I was thinking about a Spring Marathon to try and keep the momentum going and try and keep improving on the gains I've made over the last block. Limerick is on my radar as it would be easier to get to than abroad and the hassle and expense of a trip like that but I'm not fully settled on it yet.

I'll definitely give the Raheney 5 mile a good go this year. Last year was my first time doing it and the course was long so It'd be nice to have a crack at it

What is the pinnacle of what you aspire to achieve with running? Dream big with this one, and have huge confidence in yourself.

Loads of different things spread over lots of distances! I think there is a sub 3hr marathon in me. I'd like to qualify for one of those big Marathons, maybe Boston as a friend did it and my wife heads over regularly and it might be a nice trip for us to do or maybe Berlin as I really like Berlin.

I'd also really like to do a sub 5 minute mile. Sub 19 5K and sub 40 10K are good targets that I'm not too far off......

Out of all the things you had control over, what would you have done differently in the lead up to your marathon?

I should have wrapped up more toes more often!! Ah but generally the block went really well. I do however need to start doing some regular S&C and get the body a bit stronger especially in the Core and it leads to back issues for me which I managed to just stave off with physio.

I don't think the gels I was using (TORQ) were great. They were fine on the stomach which was excellent but I never really felt they were giving me any kind of boost. I'll test out some other options over the next while.

I've just taken a quick look at the grads plans and I'm liking that they are basically time based as that is something that I need to work with as my runs are all fit around kids training or other activities so I only get time windows to work with. I was going to take a look at Hanson's plans as a lot of people here seems to have had very good success with them but the Grads looks quite simple and straightforward which I like.

Question: On the pacing, which is the best race pace to use for the pace bands. the reason I ask is that my marathon is a slow outlier to my other races this year. Would it be better to use the HM which line up more with the lower distance races. i.e. Marathon time gives a 5K of 21.20 while my 5K from July was 19.36

Jbat · 10-11-2022 2:48pm

DCM was my first marathon, I wasn’t in the Novice thread but I read it quite a bit and picked up a lot of useful tips from it (especially going easy until halfway :))

Now that you’ve completed the marathon, what’s next, what are your immediate goals?

I would like to start running consistently and my immediate aim is to build up my base. I was very happy with how Dublin went but I think I could have done better if I had trained differently. My training consisted of a speed session, a tempo run and a long run each week so I don’t think there were enough easy miles. I only averaged around 25 miles a week and my marathon time was twice my half plus 30 mins I’d like to bridge that gap a bit towards twice plus 20

hat is the pinnacle of what you aspire to achieve with running? Dream big with this one, and have huge confidence in yourself

id like to run under 3 30 for a marathon in the next year or two (I ran 3 45 in Dublin) Ideally I’d like to PB at 5, 10 and half marathon along the way :)

Out of all the things you had control over, what would you have done differently in the lead up to your marathon?

more easy miles! I don’t think any of my training runs were really easy and I think my mileage was relatively low (which couldn’t be helped really, young family, job etc.) but I think if I could move from three runs a week to 4/5 and up the miles a bit while slowing the pace I would hopefully see some improvement.

first question though. There’s a big discrepancy between my 5k time and marathon time (5k is sub 20) so when I put both times into the pace calculator there is about a minute difference between paces for “easy” I assume I should go at the pace it gives based on my marathon time?

Lazare · 10-11-2022 4:15pm

This is brilliant folks, great response so far, yipee 😄

I'll come back on later with a little more time to reply to you guys.

Delighted though.

TheRef · 10-11-2022 5:59pm

Huge respect and thanks @Lazare.

Now that you’ve completed the marathon, what’s next, what are your immediate goals?

My immediate goal is to get over a calf injury and do the 26km Run The Line on the 19th. I'm back at the physio next week and I'll allow him to make the call if I should skip it. I'll just say that on Tuesday morning I couldn't put any weight on my right leg. Today, I can walk, although with some discomfort, so looking good.

10 mile planned for early March and DCM 23.

I've finished reading 80/20 running and nearly half way through Daniels Running Formula. My current thinking is do one of Daniels plans to prepare for the 10m.

What is the pinnacle of what you aspire to achieve with running? Dream big with this one, and have huge confidence in yourself.

I don't really know to be honest. I guess I'd like to do DCM under 3:30, and a 10k in about 43min. Truthfully though, it's to do what many others here have done - use the last marathon as a springboard to long term consistent running.

Out of all the things you had control over, what would you have done differently in the lead up to your marathon?

Nothing that I can think of. I followed the boards plan closely, and the mentors were excellent with their advice. I continued to referee soccer during my training which I'm sure others would advise against, but it was important to me to keep doing things I enjoy.

Kellygirl · 10-11-2022 7:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119857443#Comment_119857443

Could you just change the days you are running? So make the plan Sunday to Saturday and then you have Sunday as the 20 min recovery or OFF? Or if Sunday suits you better to run then treat it as Tuesday to Monday and take Friday’s Very easy or Off as an Off Day on Saturday?

It was either this plan or another where I just changed the days written on top and still did the runs in the right order but I think the long runs were on a Wednesday for me.

Murph_D · 10-11-2022 8:40pm

Best of luck with this @Lazare, a great choice of mentor. The graduate thread was a big part of my own running development way back post DCM 2012. One mistake I made thought was jumping too soon into another marathon plan without really having enough of a base and getting injured, so don't let that happen to you! Enjoy the next part of the adventure.

Lazare · 10-11-2022 9:59pm

@MisterJinx Question: On the pacing, which is the best race pace to use for the pace bands. the reason I ask is that my marathon is a slow outlier to my other races this year. Would it be better to use the HM which line up more with the lower distance races. i.e. Marathon time gives a 5K of 21.20 while my 5K from July was 19.36

@Jbat first question though. There’s a big discrepancy between my 5k time and marathon time (5k is sub 20) so when I put both times into the pace calculator there is about a minute difference between paces for “easy” I assume I should go at the pace it gives based on my marathon time?

Want to deal with this question first. I mulled over talking about this in my OP, mainly out of caution but also because the post was fairly tl;dr as it was 😁

I think it's fine to use your half time to determine it. For a couple of reasons. First is, DCM is not a 'fair' course, it's a relatively slow course. Plus for a first time marathoner it's totally natural for it not to have been perfect, in a racing sense, fuelling, pacing etc. Add to that you guys were advised all along to be conservative with your targets and enjoy the day.

You've probably more experience running a half, so I think it wlll better represent your fitness. @Jbat was that 5k recently? Did you do a half in the run up?

Whatever you enter needs to be recent, needs to best represent your current fitness. Future race times can be added in as we go to keep things up to date.

I erred on the side of caution not mentioning it in my OP, figured it would come up as a question anyway. There's no such thing as 'too easy', but we also want accurate info for the faster stuff, LT runs etc.

Lazare · 10-11-2022 10:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119855923#Comment_119855923

Looking forward to reading it, great to have you onboard, and thank you for that lovely comment. 😊

Plenty of time to get into great shape for Belfast.

Lazare · 10-11-2022 10:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119855925#Comment_119855925

Nice one C, thank you v much. You'll be of stellar help around here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119855947#Comment_119855947

Likewise E. Thank you, honoured that you put me forward.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119856216#Comment_119856216

Thanks so much E, another wise head around these parts that steered novices to glory.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119856529#Comment_119856529

Haha, cheers. Tix on sale tomorrow morn. Sshhh. 😊

Lazare · 10-11-2022 10:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119857286#Comment_119857286

Great stuff Dublinlad. I loved your race report in the novice thread, loved how you got what we always hope people get from their first marathon, an absolutely amazing day that you won't ever forget. The race was tough for you for the last six miles (as it was for almost everyone) but what's great is you know exactly why and know exactly how to remedy that for Manchester.

I think the base phase of the grads plan is perfect for you, it brings you right up to the start of your Manchester block.

Lazare · 10-11-2022 10:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119857443#Comment_119857443

Welcome aboard Adiaga 😊

As @Kellygirl said, and it's a really good tip, maybe switch the days around and see how that looks for you. For me, it would suit my lifestyle much better to do the Sunday run on a Saturday for instance. I think also, just like Dublinlad, having a Spring target is ideal, as the specific plans line up great with the base phase.

Love your answer to the pinnacle question. A sub 4 is absolutely achievable for you.

That injury fear leading up to the marathon is the worst isn't it. I'm not sure that can ever be avoided. The stress of it from about six weeks out had me in bits. Then I got Covid two weeks out lol. Avoided injury though 😀

Love your WOD reference, haha. I love that album too, in fact their albums are like kids, feel bad saying I have a favourite. Toyed with the idea of using 'Under The Pressure' but didn't want people scared off 😄

Jbat · 10-11-2022 10:56pm

Thanks @Lazare yeah I did the 5k early in my DCM training block maybe around July and my half marathon time was 1:38 from the Dublin half marathon in September. Using the half time sounds like a good idea to start with. Looking forward to a couple of weeks of easier running. Got out for a very short and slow run today, was good to get back moving :)

Lazare · 10-11-2022 11:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119857671#Comment_119857671

Delighted you've signed up Misterjinx. You ran a really cracking debut DCM, I did think you were a little hard on yourself on your report and said so, and your reply to me was spot on, that you weren't being hard on yourself, you were highlighting areas for improvement. That's a fantastic attitude. You've a sub3 in you without doubt.

Focus on getting that toe back in good shape I would say. Like the guys above, targeting a spring marathon makes the base phase a great fit for your next few weeks.

The time based element of the grads plans was also something I meant to speak about in my OP, was in my extensive notes lol.

It's a pretty genius method really, designed especially to suit a wide variety of people, of varying pace abilities.

Basing a plan on time rather than distance means everybody gets the same adaptation. Regardless of whether you can run a 20 minute or a 40 minute 5k, a 90 minute run is a 90 minute run.

The idea behind the 'what would you do differently' question was for people to reflect, and maybe think of things they've overlooked, and improve on them. You seem to have that nailed. Nice one.

Lazare · 10-11-2022 11:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119857696#Comment_119857696

Great to have you onboard Jbat, was really hoping to attract people (also) from outside the novice thread, so that's great to see.

You seem to have a really good handle on where there's room for improvement on your DCM performance, and it's brilliant that you realise it's more and more easy miles, saves me a few bangs of the drum 😀

If you've ran a 3:45 at DCM off a non optimal block of training, then a 3:1x is within reach for you over the next year or two with solid training. Basing that off the fact you've a sub20 5k under your belt. Wouldn't be stopping there either. 😉

Lazare · 10-11-2022 11:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119858479#Comment_119858479

Thank you TheRef, great to have you onboard. I really enjoyed your posting in the novice thread, loved your enthusiasm. Another race report that I really enjoyed.

I really really think you need to be careful about Run The Line. It's a pretty challenging thing to be doing this side of DCM anyway, I would be giving you this advice if you weren't nursing an injury. Without your calf issue I would be suggesting you run it very easy with a view to DNF'ing without hesitating. With your calf issue I would advise on skipping it.

Get yourself recovered and strong, ready to take the world on in 2023. A couple of weeks rest then a gentle getting back into it with the grads base phase. You won't drop much fitness either.

Have you more ref duties coming up over the next few weeks?

Lazare · 10-11-2022 11:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119859791#Comment_119859791

Yeah, I think the half would be the better one to use. Your times suggest you will benefit greatly from lots and lots of easy miles, building that endurance engine. You're very nippy over 5k, but aren't translating that yet into your longer distances. Even if 5k is going to be your focus aerobic work is vital. You've highlighted that yourself in your first post so that's brilliant.

It's great to get back out again isn't it. I'm running every second day at the moment, and while the breathing and heart rate are in great shape, the legs still have remnants of DCM in them. Be another couple of weeks I'd say before fully recovered from it.

Lazare · 10-11-2022 11:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119859053#Comment_119859053

Oops, there's me saying ty to everyone wishing me well and forgetting this legend.

Thank you very much D, for your kind words privately, and for putting me forward for this, truly honoured.

masterK · 11-11-2022 10:59am

Fair play to you @Lazare, I always found your posts on the novice thread really inciteful.

Now that you’ve completed the marathon, what’s next, what are your immediate goals?

I'm still scratching my head a bit on this one tbh, I'm still pretty gutted how the day went. I think in the whole 18 week training block I only missed 2/3 sessions and they were shorter ones so I've no arguments in terms of prep.

On one had I feel I've a decent marathon in me, I've greatly improved my HM time in the last few months and I feel like I've unfinished business with the big one.

On the other hand I'll be 46 next year, I had a pretty bad hip injury earlier in the year (which has never really went away but is managed now), my knees got pretty sore in the last few weeks of training and then my calves cramped up on the day so I'm not sure my body will be any better next year.

In saying all that I'm going to train with doing DCM 2023 in mind and see how it goes.

What is the pinnacle of what you aspire to achieve with running? Dream big with this one, and have huge confidence in yourself.

I'd love to do a sub 3:45 marathon. In the shorter term I'd like to see if I can go sub 45 for 10k and sub 1:40 for a HM, I don't think I'm far away from either.

Out of all the things you had control over, what would you have done differently in the lead up to your marathon?

I think I maybe missed some hill and interval type training. I also think some S&C would have helped.

I was pretty consistent on the training and went to a physio once a month so overall there isn't a huge amount I could have done differently, maybe slowed down a little more on some of my runs

E.coli · 11-11-2022 12:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119859511#Comment_119859511

Solid advice here @Lazare

FWIW gonna weigh in on the running calculator here. I chose this one when doing up the plan as it is something that I have used in the past in my coaching and find it generally a good guide but it is important to note that it is a guide

Marathon is not the greatest reference point to use. The fact is that the calculator assumes a person has a sufficient aerobic endurance base to run the optimum marathon. Unfortunately this can take up to 10 years of heavy mileage to get to which realistically is not the position that many people are in coming off first marathon. The good news with that though is that there is huge potential for improvement for years to come no matter what age you are as training age is just as important and majority are relative infants in that regard with a huge ceiling
If you can try and use reference points closest to your target race so if you are trying to run 5k maybe use a 5k/10k time for recently if you can. If you don't have a relatively recent fitness marker a parkrun can be a good starting point just to put a mark on the board
The more reference points the better. Ideally if you can try and use 3 reference points one below target distance, one at and one above. This can just help give you a pace range to work off. Unless there is a huge outlier. Paces can change on any given day with wind, tiredness, stress etc etc so better to pull back a little rather than overwork on any given day. This is why having a range can be good habit to get dialed in to effort of where you should be

Lazare · 11-11-2022 5:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119860952#Comment_119860952

Thanks man, that's really nice of you to say, and welcome aboard.

It's difficult not to be hard on yourself when the marathon doesn't go to plan, but you shouldn't be. I had a very similar race experience to you in 2018, a sufferfest for the last 10k. I learnt tons from it though, and you will too.

Don't be worrying either about your age, turned 46 myself this year and feel fitter than I ever have. We've a lot more to do in this game you and I, a sub 3:45 is absolutely doable. Have a look at @Kellygirl's training log for inspiration on that front.

The 'maybe slowed down a little on some of my runs' could well be the key to big improvement for you.

I would use your 1:43 half for the calculator if I were you, to get your training paces.

Lazare · 11-11-2022 5:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119861232#Comment_119861232

Excellent stuff. Delighted you're weighing in with your expertise. 😊

Dublin334 · 12-11-2022 12:02pm

Many thanks @Lazare for taking this on and helping guide us to the next goal. DCM 2022 was my first effort at any kind of distance running and at the ripe old age of 49 I am truly delighted to have completed it. Got a great laugh out of the articles the last few days on the Garda who took the Luas for the second half of the race. I actually had packed my Leap card with me just in case of injury and being stranded, miles from the city centre.

Now that you’ve completed the marathon, what’s next, what are your immediate goals?

Not really sure where to go next. I only picked up running 3 or 4 years ago and only ever did park runs or 5 mile runs up until this year. Over the next few months there are a few 5 mile races (Clontarf and Raheny) that I hope to complete but I haven't really thought any further. I entered the 2023 DCM but that was really to keep it open for now rather than seriously thinking about it. My immediate target will be to just to have a plan/routine of 3/4 runs a week with one of those being longish (60 mins or so)

What is the pinnacle of what you aspire to achieve with running? Dream big with this one, and have huge confidence in yourself.

I would really like to have gone sub 4 in the 2022 DCM and that's the biggest target in running that I would have like to achieved.

Out of all the things you had control over, what would you have done differently in the lead up to your marathon?

This is a big question for me. I am not sure I could have done anything different in my preparation as I completed the novice plan exactly as per schedule and paces. I just can't figure out what happened in those last 10-12kms when the wheels came off. I had done FD HM in 1.45 and felt I was pacing myself really well for the first 16-18 miles of DCM (about 8.50 per mile).

Hydration was good as I stopped at every water station on the way.

HR was really steady (around 140) so I think my fitness was good and never felt under pressure with the speed.

Nutrition - had taken 2 gels by mile 14 and perhaps should have gone with another one but not sure it would have made a big difference

Just can't figure out why I went so flat so quickly after mile 18. Had to walk a good portion of last 10km and finished at 4:10 having slowed by about 15-20 mins on pace for first 3/4s of the race. Post race I heard loads of experienced runners talking about humidity being a big issue and many suffered that hadn't in other DCMs. But that could be just me tuning in to these stories and trying to comprehend why I struggled. I think I wouldn't be ready to tackle another marathon unless I have figured out what I could change to try and master that last part of the race.

Hoping that some of the experienced runners can help me figure that piece out.

Lazare · 12-11-2022 8:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119864913#Comment_119864913

Great stuff Dublin334, you're more than welcome, thank you for jumping in.

Re your immediate goals, the Grads base phase is perfect for you (for everyone really). Do you think you could stretch to five days a week? You seem to have a really solid fitness right now, keeping her lit with 5x days of mostly easy running for the next few weeks will build so much on that.

I think many of us were scratching our heads like you were after DCM. Just like you I felt on fire up until mile 18. I was actually shocked that cramp started to poke it's head up. There's probably myriad factors that led to it, not adjusting fueling to the weather conditions etc but the main one is our inexperience at the distance. As @E.coli says above it can take ten years of learning to become good at 26.2.

Basically don't beat yourself up. Onwards.

Sub 4 is pretty easily achievable for you. I think, with the right approach and intelligent training you could shoot a little better than that at DCM23.

DeepBlue · 12-11-2022 8:52pm

@Lazare

not adjusting fueling to the weather conditions etc but the main one

Hope you don't mind asking what changes one would/should make regarding fuel and weather?

Lazare · 12-11-2022 9:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119867030#Comment_119867030

I'm a long way away from an expert on fueling, some more knowledgeable folk will answer this better.

I think the high and unusual humidity on the day played a role in so many people reporting cramp. Cramping afterall is due to a sodium deficiency. Excess sweating pretty much.

Maybe a more experienced marathoner would have made changes that morning to electrolyte intake, sodium intake. It seems though to be kinda outlier stuff that we probably shouldn't be too concerned with.

I would hazard a guess that ''normal' weather variability shouldn't cause you to change your fueling strategy.

Lazare · 12-11-2022 10:18pm

I'll set up a Strava group once we have our little band of improvers together. Maybe next weekend.

I think a weekly update also will be good, posted over the weekend. Tell us how your week went, good and bad. Start now if you like.

I also like the idea of every Sunday asking ourselves that third question. 'Out of everything you had control over this week, what would you have done differently'.

I mean ask yourself the question privately. I think it's a valuable thing to do regularly, it allows us reflect and nip bad habits in the bud.

It's important though I feel to not include when life gets in the way of running. That's just part of it. If your kid is sick and you've had a sh1tty sleep, and too tired to do your Saturday run, that's not something that's in your control. That's life.

If you should have ran that 5 mile run at 9 min pace and you ran it at 8:20 because you felt great, well, that's something you can include. 😊

Pawwed Rig · 13-11-2022 8:38am

My log for this week

This week I did an easy 10k on Monday and Wednesday with a more difficult 14.5k on Thurs. Difficulty due to headwinds and hills (city centre to Sandyford) rather than pushing it.

Yesterday I did a 2.5k slow run down to St Anne's for parkrun and had a crack at my pb coming up short by 5 seconds.

'Out of everything you had control over this week, what would you have done differently'.

A guy I know passed me at the 3k mark of the parkrun and finished <20 secs ahead of me. If I had stuck with him (which I think I could have) I would have pb'd.

Jbat · 13-11-2022 1:32pm

My heart rate seems to still be a couple of beats higher than before the marathon so I think I’ll do one or two more easy runs this week before starting the base plan properly the following week.

my own two cents on the fueling (at least what worked for me): I took a lot of gels during the marathon, starting from 20 mins in and by the end was living gel to gel (at least that’s what it felt like). From reading a bit before the marathon it seems like bigger runners need more fuel which seems to make sense and it worked for me as I think I definitely would have hit the wall if I only took 2 or 3 gels.

(although definitely worth practicing in training as I had a some stomach issues towards the end of some long runs)

skyblue46 · 13-11-2022 7:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119864913#Comment_119864913

Re fuelling....this is where I would be looking to find improvement. 2 gels in 14 miles is simply not enough for someone pushing themselves to their present limits. An experienced runner who jumps out of bed and runs 15-18 miles fasted every Sunday morning may have slightly different requirements but the carbs you burn need replacing and your intake simply wasn't sufficient.

Dublin334 · 14-11-2022 7:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119870342#Comment_119870342

Many thanks @skyblue46 , @Jbat , @Lazare for the fuelling tips. Its an area I will work on for any future distance running. I definitely want to avoid that 'flat/empty' feeling occurring again in a race.

MisterJinx · 14-11-2022 10:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119871560#Comment_119871560

Just for reference, I am looking at fueling as well to imrove on it but I took 5 gels and some chews for dcm.

The Black Oil · 14-11-2022 7:43pm

Great to see this thread going. I've used all parts of the Grads plan, apart from the 10k-HM, successfully - including getting to sub 4. The base phase is always worth doing too.

Mr. Guappa · 15-11-2022 10:44am

Just catching up on this thread... Best of luck to everyone - you're all in great hands with @Lazare

I'm another who can vouch for the grads plans. Following my first DCM (2018) I pretty much exclusively followed the grads plans for the following 12 months and improved from 4:13 in DCM '18 to 3:47 a year later. And I still regularly dip back into them, and will use the base plan again shortly.

Turkish1 · 15-11-2022 1:23pm

Thanks for setting this up @Lazare. Never would I have thought that I would sign up to one marathon as I was always a team sports person and the thought of running for hours on end held no appeal.. Alas COVID struck and with a busy work and home life I really enjoyed the mental break that running brought.

Now that you’ve completed the marathon, what’s next, what are your immediate goals?

Got COVID a couple days after the marathon so only getting back into the running now. Initial thoughts on my goals are to generally keep the running going (4+ times a week) and don't creep back into bad habits diet wise and put weight back on (was 97kg in Jan, ran marathon at about 82kg). Overall to run 2400km+ next year.

Somewhat arbitrary numbers but my initial thoughts on some very tough (but achievable) time based targets for the year are

5km - Sub 20min (current best 21:18)

10km - Sub 40min (current best 42:46)

HM - Sub 1:30 (current best 1:37:06)

Marathon: Sub 3:30 (DCM 22 - 3:57)

What is the pinnacle of what you aspire to achieve with running? Dream big with this one, and have huge confidence in yourself.

Long term, maybe a sub 3:15marathon and to run one of the big one's abroad. To still be running consistently in 3+years.

Out of all the things you had control over, what would you have done differently in the lead up to your marathon?

A few things stand out. Last 5 weeks of training went poorly - got a chest infection, sessions dropped from 6/week to c. 4/week. Didn't really get any good long runs in for the last month or so with the taper.. Diet tailed off a bit towards the end aswell (when it probably should have been even more important).

In terms of on the day itself, I don't think I would change anything - similar to others I felt really strong up until about the last 6-8miles and then it was a case of digging in (with quite a bit of walking) to get to the finish line. Wouldn't change anything as even though those last miles were very tough both physically and mentally I enjoyed the day and experience enormously. I will take some learnings from it no doubt, and it has also made me sign up for DCM 23 as I feel I have unfinished business. Had it all gone to plan I don't think I would be back here looking to do another marathon - every cloud and all that...

Overall feels like I need to build that aerobic base so that my shorter (up to HM) times translate into a better full marathon. Leaning towards loosely following the base block, then focusing on the shorter distances for first 4-5months of next year before hitting into building that aerobic base and into a marathon block again.

Lazare · 15-11-2022 1:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119877165#Comment_119877165

Fantastic to have you join up with us Turkish. You've a great attitude, and some really nice ambitious targets that show you have confidence in yourself.

With good intelligent training, and that confidence those targets are all achievable individually. It may be challenging to hit them all in 2023, especially with DCM on the schedule.

The Bob Heffernan in May is a perfect target for a sub 20 5k. I did that exact thing in 2019. 20 weeks of training including base from Jan and it worked. Had a similar pb to you too in Jan. It doesn't give you a lot of time to target the 90min half, but that's not to say it's not achievable.

Also, those few months targeting a 5k pb sets you up so well for your marathon block.

Love your answer to the what would you have done diff question. The chest infection is way out of your control so discount that, but you're so right about not wanting to change one thing about the day itself. The best thing you can get out of a debut DCM is an amazing day.

Bgiraffe · 15-11-2022 8:31pm

Would anyone have any advice regarding pilates class for runners which might be available online? After completing DCM (and three marathons in all in last 13 months) some s&C work is definitely required for me. Body is weak is p1ss to be completely honest and constantly getting little niggles and injuries. Enjoyed dabbling in pilates over the years and think it would be a big help. I'd say every single marathoner, in reality, could probably benefit from a session or two a week if they're not doing it, or some other S&C stuff, already.

Kellygirl · 15-11-2022 9:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878991#Comment_119878991

Check out this website. Worth downloading the app. It’s €7 for the first month with the code trial50. I know the guy who set it up and he knows his stuff. He’s a physio and a runner and big into strength work.

https://www.runningbuddytraining.com/

I realise it’s not Pilates but hopefully if interest anyway.

Bgiraffe · 15-11-2022 10:30pm

That looks very interesting. Thanks a lot for the steer. Injury free running here I come!

Kellygirl · 15-11-2022 10:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879588#Comment_119879588

Worth a follow on Instagram at least anyway. He puts up a lot of stuff.

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