SCP company gone bust, leaving charging situation in N.I in " Confusion"?

reboot · 15-12-2017 6:40pm #1

Some talk on NIEVO regarding information from ESB to the effect that the manufacturers of SCPs in N.I ate no longer in business, meaning that some maintenance having to be carried out by trying to repair mother boards?
I pointed out to Ecarni some years ago about the dangers of having all our (EBG?) eggs in one basket!
Have I got this right? Certainly a number of CPs near me have been completely powered down now for over 4 months.

unkel · 16-12-2017 1:04am

Forget about slow charge points anyway. They are a waste of space. They won't be maintained and none of them will be around in a decade. They are the phone booth from the early noughties

KCross · 16-12-2017 1:14am

unkel wrote: »

Forget about slow charge points anyway. They are a waste of space. They won't be maintained and none of them will be around in a decade. They are the phone booth from the early noughties

The government are considering adding lots more of them!

unkel · 16-12-2017 1:45am

Are they? Public slow chargers are a thing of the past. I hope we aren't gonna waste more tax payers money on it. Where did you see that the government is going to spend a lot of money on public slow chargers? I must have missed that. Any link?

goz83 · 16-12-2017 2:12am

I hope they add hundreds more. Great for stopping off somewhere for a couple of hours and coming back to a big energy boost.

reboot · 16-12-2017 10:01am

Depends on the EV you bought, I've used a rapid once in 4 years, and could manage with 32 kva, at any lamp post.
More efficient motors are arriving, particularly if Regen isn't required of them.

KCross · 16-12-2017 10:02am

unkel wrote: »

Are they? Public slow chargers are a thing of the past. I hope we aren't gonna waste more tax payers money on it. Where did you see that the government is going to spend a lot of money on public slow chargers? I must have missed that. Any link?

It came from the LEV task force. They consider the off street parking issue an important problem to solve. And they are right.

There are 2 general solutions.
- More rapids.
- More SCP's

The priority seems to be the rapids but they also mentioned approaching the LA's to get them to install lots more SCP's. Not so much as destination chargers but to solve the off-street parking issue.

Just to clarify, I said "considering". I'd imagine every LA will have a different attitude and nothing might happen.

The off-street parking (or lack of more like) issue is a massive hurdle to EV adoption imo and asking those people to drive to a rapid every few days isn't going to cut it so in the medium term at least we need a different solution.

If we go to your utopian scenario where we have 1000s of 350kW chargers all over the place and €25k EVs can charge in <10mins then yes you can rip out the SCP network but how long will that take and what do you do in the meantime?

ei9go · 16-12-2017 2:15pm

unkel wrote: »

Forget about slow charge points anyway. They are a waste of space. They won't be maintained and none of them will be around in a decade. They are the phone booth from the early noughties

Only if you've bought a car that use them to their full potential.

I used a fast charger for 10 minutes last July and seldom have to charge at home.

16-12-2017 6:22pm

unkel wrote: »

Forget about slow charge points anyway. They are a waste of space. They won't be maintained and none of them will be around in a decade. They are the phone booth from the early noughties

Really ? I doubt that, we'll need both AC and DC , AC for those who're not in a hurry and DC for the long motorway runs. And it's good to have a mix, AC points are simple.

I can't wait to try the 11 KW AC in the I3 from public points, very practical. Means less waiting at DC points.

Your local free DC charger might be quiet useful for you because it's down the road but sometimes DC isn't practical especially if you have to wait to charge where with AC you park up do your business and head home fully charged or charged enough to get home.

unkel · 17-12-2017 12:30am

Lads, we need to look forward, not back. I understand some of your cars and your situations are best served with slow chargers right now. But installing (or maintaining) infrastructure with tax payers money should be focused on the needs in 5 or 10 years time.

goz83 · 17-12-2017 1:04am

unkel wrote: »

Lads, we need to look forward, not back. I understand some of your cars and your situations are best served with slow chargers right now. But installing (or maintaining) infrastructure with tax payers money should be focused on the needs in 5 or 10 years time.

Perception matters a great deal. You could give someone an EV with a 500klm range and they still won’t feel at ease unless there are back ups all over the country.

Besides, we don’t want to have people use rapid chargers if they can get away with slow chargers.

liamog · 17-12-2017 10:47am

goz83 wrote: »

Perception matters a great deal. You could give someone an EV with a 500klm range and they still won’t feel at ease unless there are back ups all over the country.

Besides, we don’t want to have people use rapid chargers if they can get away with slow chargers.

My main issue with further investment in SCPs is the short sightedness of it.

There just aren't that many places that people park for multiple hours outside of home/work.

I think the sweet spot is likely to be between 60kWh and 100kWh for EVs.

These need AC charging at home for most of their needs and rapid DC charging for journeys/people who can't charge at home.

goz83 · 17-12-2017 11:34am

liamog wrote: »

My main issue with further investment in SCPs is the short sightedness of it.

There just aren't that many places that people park for multiple hours outside of home/work.

I think the sweet spot is likely to be between 60kWh and 100kWh for EVs.

These need AC charging at home for most of their needs and rapid DC charging for journeys/people who can't charge at home.

There are lots of places where people park for hours at a time. Stopping for 2 or more hours is worth plugging in for a top-up.

I'm thinking any city, or town will see cars parked on the side street for hours at a time. Then thinking visits to...., Cinemas, Retail Parks, Large Shopping Centres (Blanch/Liffey Valley etc), Tourist hot spots of which there are many.

This would provide the safety net EV tyre kickers want and would even make it viable for Tourists to rent EVs, which would be a great image for us.

Having an SCP nearby encourages me to visit that location in favour of another. Same is true of FCPs. I will quicker stop at a garage with a charger than one without. That's where I spend my money. Unless I actually need to plug in, I won't hold anyone else up.

KCross · 17-12-2017 11:43am

unkel wrote: »

Lads, we need to look forward, not back. I understand some of your cars and your situations are best served with slow chargers right now. But installing (or maintaining) infrastructure with tax payers money should be focused on the needs in 5 or 10 years time.

I don't think its backward at all. The SCP network should be looked at in the very same way as your home charger because thats all it is.... AC at 7kW into your car.

Do you consider home charging backward? If not, then you should support more SCP to enable those with no off-street parking. I'll elaborate further below.

I think you might also have a skewed view because you have your own "personal" rapid next to you!

liamog wrote: »

My main issue with further investment in SCPs is the short sightedness of it.

There just aren't that many places that people park for multiple hours outside of home/work.

I think the sweet spot is likely to be between 60kWh and 100kWh for EVs.

The comment I made about the govt considering more SCP's is entirely to solve the lack of off-street charging and not to increase destination chargers which is what the SCP network is about today.

So, the thought process is to put them into locations where residents park their cars overnight. Destination chargers (car parks, hotels, gyms etc) should be a private enterprise.

So we need to distinguish between the current SCP network and what its function was/is and what the potential new SCP's are trying to solve.

I don't think thats short sighted at all. Its forward thinking on multiple levels in my eyes. Let me lay out some reasons below that I see why SCP's should be increased.

liamog wrote: »

These need AC charging at home for most of their needs and rapid DC charging for journeys/people who can't charge at home.

I don't agree with the idea that everyone who can't charge at home should be forced to a rapid a few times a week. There are multiple issues with that approach.

- There is an assumption built in that 60-100kWh EV's will become the norm and that you can charge those cars in 10mins and those cars will be affordable. I think we are looking beyond 10yrs for all those variables to converge. What do you do in the meantime... just abandon all those with no off-street parking?

- Using a rapid is a waste of your time unless you are on a long journey. It will slow adoption which is counter to what we need right now. Would you buy an EV knowing you have to go to a rapid a few times a week and sit there for 30mins? Thats a lot of your personal time being wasted. We have to be realistic, 10min rapid charging is a LONG way off for the average EV buyer (<€25k) so we need to do all we can to enable those with no off-street parking.

- We need as many EV drivers as possible charging overnight for the benefit of the grid. 10s of thousands of EV's charging at peak time on rapids is not where we should be forcing people to. The rapids should be primarily for enabling long journeys.

- One of the big benefits of having an EV is that it is fully charged every morning when you go out to it. Lets enable that for as many people as possible.

- The more people you enable for home charging the less strain you put on the rapid network freeing it up for those who need it for long journeys and are time pressed rather than waiting for the local guy who's just reading the news on his phone or off walking the dog while its charging! We know where it will all lead to if we force 1000s of people to rapids.

For me the debate should not be black and white, DC vs AC.... it needs to be both. More SCP's will help everyone but when we talk about the SCP network its not about destination charging, its about solving the lack of off-street charging problem.

Del2005 · 17-12-2017 12:04pm

unkel wrote: »

Lads, we need to look forward, not back. I understand some of your cars and your situations are best served with slow chargers right now. But installing (or maintaining) infrastructure with tax payers money should be focused on the needs in 5 or 10 years time.

In 5 to 10 years time no one can know what autonomous driving will do to car ownership. So no point in building fast charging points for people to charge their car when people don't own a car. Once cars reach level 4 getting insurance for a human driver will be astronomical.

Going on a long journey order a car, it arrives and brings you where you need to go and then goes off to charge or pick up another customer. If it runs out of charge it'll go to a depot and you get a different car. Or someone could invent an induction charging system that can be built into roads. So if we invest in today's charging technology we could end up with the wrong infrastructure in the wrong place.

Of course I could be wrong, but technology is improving exponentially.

KCross · 17-12-2017 12:13pm

Del2005 wrote: »

In 5 to 10 years time no one can know what autonomous driving will do to car ownership. So no point in building fast charging points for people to charge their car when people don't own a car. Once cars reach level 4 getting insurance for a human driver will be astronomical.

So wait until level 4 autonomy is available for everyone?
My guess is that that's decades away.

And those autonomous cars need charging too so the rapid network will still be required for the long journeys.

Del2005 wrote: »

Or someone could invent an induction charging system that can be built into roads.

That already exists actually. If you look up the fully charged youtube channel he did a video on a trial system in France.

Great if you are building a new road but not very practical to go digging up the countries roads for it.

Del2005 wrote: »

So if we invest in today's charging technology we could end up with the wrong infrastructure in the wrong place.

Of course I could be wrong, but technology is improving exponentially.

That is always the case though. It shouldn't stop us from moving forward with it. Sitting and waiting for the future is a never ending game.

goz83 · 17-12-2017 12:27pm

KCross wrote: »

- We need as many EV drivers as possible charging overnight for the benefit of the grid. 10s of thousands of EV's charging at peak time on rapids is not where we should be forcing people to. The rapids should be primarily for enabling long journeys.

- One of the big benefits of having an EV is that it is fully charged every morning when you go out to it. Lets enable that for as many people as possible.

To enable those with no driveway to charge their EV, there needs to be a right for apartment and townhouse dwellers to have CPs installed. It's not good enough if you have to jump through hoops and bend over backwards before the management company will consider your proposal.

While it would be better, it may not be necessary to have your own designated CP. But lots of apartment complexes have the meters in the car park directly below the relevant apartment units, so it would not be difficult to make a direct connection and designate a spot for this.

KCross wrote: »

For me the debate should not be black and white, DC vs AC.... it needs to be both. More SCP's will help everyone but when we talk about the SCP network its not about destination charging, its about solving the lack of off-street charging problem.

I do think destination charging is important and without it, we will see more unnecessary use of FCPs. There is a different solution for those currently living in apartments, or houses with no driveway and that's what I covered above. We shouldn't have to invest in SCPs when there should be a legislative change to enable those without a drive-way to charge their EV.

Del2005 wrote: »

In 5 to 10 years time no one can know what autonomous driving will do to car ownership. So no point in building fast charging points for people to charge their car when people don't own a car. Once cars reach level 4 getting insurance for a human driver will be astronomical.

Going on a long journey order a car, it arrives and brings you where you need to go and then goes off to charge or pick up another customer. If it runs out of charge it'll go to a depot and you get a different car. Or someone could invent an induction charging system that can be built into roads. So if we invest in today's charging technology we could end up with the wrong infrastructure in the wrong place.

Of course I could be wrong, but technology is improving exponentially.

I'm all for autonomous driving, but not at the expense of effectively removing car ownership from everyone bar the rich. That's not really progress imo. If I want a taxi, i'll use the app. Sometimes I just want to get into my own car and go for a spin. I don't want to spend half a days wage doing that in a taxi.

liamog · 17-12-2017 12:34pm

KCross wrote: »

I don't agree with the idea that everyone who can't charge at home should be forced to a rapid a few times a week. There are multiple issues with that approach.

If you're driving a 60kWh EV capable of 18kWh/100km, 1 charge a week will provide 17000km of annual range. This is the approx. average range for average Irish drivers. I suspect people who honestly can't install home chargers probably drive less as they are more likely to be in urban/suburban areas.

KCross wrote: »

There is an assumption built in that 60-100kWh EV's will become the norm and that you can charge those cars in 10mins and those cars will be affordable. I think we are looking beyond 10yrs for all those variables to converge. What do you do in the meantime... just abandon all those with no off-street parking?

Leaf 2 is coming with a 60kWh battery in 2019. The Kona is rumored to come in a 64kWh battery for the long range batter. With 150kW chargers you're talking 20mins to charge these.
Asking someone to plug in for 20 mins whilst at their local grocery store is not in the realms of impossibility and would save them more time than asking them to park 5/10 mins away from their home at a slow charger.

KCross wrote: »

Using a rapid is a waste of your time unless you are on a long journey. It will slow adoption which is counter to what we need right now. Would you buy an EV knowing you have to go to a rapid a few times a week and sit there for 30mins? Thats a lot of your personal time being wasted. We have to be realistic, 10min rapid charging is a LONG way off for the average EV buyer (<€25k) so we need to do all we can to enable those with no off-street parking.

20 minute charging is an achievable target with todays technology. Stick these in a grocery store car park. My charging time is now 5 mins a week. I drive to the store, plug in, do my shop, unplug and drive home. I was doing the shop anyway. I'd rather see the investment provide this kind of setup instead of slow chargers everywhere.

KCross wrote: »

We need as many EV drivers as possible charging overnight for the benefit of the grid. 10s of thousands of EV's charging at peak time on rapids is not where we should be forcing people to. The rapids should be primarily for enabling long journeys.

I disagree with rapids only for long journeys, battery installations can be used to provide levelling across the grid. We will already have the majority of EVs being charged overnight at home. Adding on street scps isn't going to make much of a dent.

KCross wrote: »

One of the big benefits of having an EV is that it is fully charged every morning when you go out to it. Lets enable that for as many people as possible.

This is a function of the current short range cars, realistically most won't care that their car has 300km of range instead of 400km because it's two days since they charged it.

KCross wrote: »

The more people you enable for home charging the less strain you put on the rapid network freeing it up for those who need it for long journeys and are time pressed rather than waiting for the local guy who's just reading the news on his phone or off walking the dog while its charging! We know where it will all lead to if we force 1000s of people to rapids.

This to me is the real kicker, you see it as removing strain. I see it as removing customers. I want a commercially viable fast charging network that enables me to drive well outside my home range. I want to spend a week away from home and have a location where I can charge my car quickly. More customers equals more chargers.
Network queueing theory is really interesting. A location with 10 150kW rapids will result in less individual waiting time than a location with 1 150kW rapid even if the utilization rate was the same.

KCross wrote: »

For me the debate should not be black and white, DC vs AC.... it needs to be both. More SCP's will help everyone but when we talk about the SCP network its not about destination charging, its about solving the lack of off-street charging problem.

I just don't think public SCPs are scalable in a world of cars with larger batteries. Centralized locations with multiple DC heads are the way forward. The technology is available today. Chargepoint have a DC setup available that allows 8 connections https://www.chargepoint.com/files/datasheets/ds-expressplus.pdf
To me, this is the solution for on street parking. A fully equipped station allows up to 8 cars to charge at 125kW or when the station is not at 100% utilization a single car can charge at up to 400kW.

KCross · 17-12-2017 12:53pm

goz83 wrote: »

To enable those with no driveway to charge their EV, there needs to be a right for apartment and townhouse dwellers to have CPs installed. It's not good enough if you have to jump through hoops and bend over backwards before the management company will consider your proposal.

Of course. Thats part of the solution too.

But that doesn't resolve it for everyone. What about those whose car is not outside their door (i.e. they can't have a metered CP of their own)?

reboot · 17-12-2017 12:57pm

Belfast to have a fleet of Glider buses, holding 100 passengers each, at a cost of £600,000 each. Streets are being widened to allow the bendy buses to navigate.
Meanwhile the French Government order 25,000 Renault Zoe?

goz83 · 17-12-2017 1:20pm

KCross wrote: »

Of course. Thats part of the solution too.

But that doesn't resolve it for everyone. What about those whose car is not outside their door (i.e. they can't have a metered CP of their own)?

So there are two solutions I can think of right now.

With designated parking, a CP can be installed and the meter could be wirelessly connected to the home meter and it activated using a card, key, or app.

For undesignated parking, a number of CPs could be connected to a main CPU and an access card, or app could be used to add consumed units (along with a standing charge) to the relevant users home bill.

There would be no need for a pay on the spot system here, but it certainly could be added for when visitors arrive.

KCross · 17-12-2017 1:45pm

liamog wrote: »

If you're driving a 60kWh EV capable of 18kWh/100km, 1 charge a week will provide 17000km of annual range. This is the approx. average range for average Irish drivers. I suspect people who honestly can't install home chargers probably drive less as they are more likely to be in urban/suburban areas.

I think that's too simplistic. We all know averages spread out over a year don't work when it comes to convincing people to buy EV's... and rightly so.

And when you are on a rapid you don't typically charge to 100%... its more like 80% so your 60kWh (with ~55kWh usable) is now a 44kWh car so maybe a real world 200-250km car and take out the trip to the rapid charger from that which is going to be several miles away based on your "Centralized locations with multiple DC heads" vision and take out the fact that you cannot budget to conveniently arrive at the rapid with 0% left. You need a 10-20% buffer to ensure you don't get caught out with an "emergency" trip on your "charging day".

Don't get me wrong, I want these Tesla supercharger style parks the same as everyone. The more the merrier but it doesn't have to be an all or nothing vision. AC has an important part to play.

liamog wrote: »

Leaf 2 is coming with a 60kWh battery in 2019. The Kona is rumored to come in a 64kWh battery for the long range batter. With 150kW chargers you're talking 20mins to charge these.
Asking someone to plug in for 20 mins whilst at their local grocery store is not in the realms of impossibility and would save them more time than asking them to park 5/10 mins away from their home at a slow charger.

You want to encourage people to plugin to the rapid while they shop! We are in for a world of pain if thats how the rapid network is going to be utilised in the future (ref Naas!).

Now, if you are telling me we are going to have 1000s of these rapids then thats a different story but I think thats very very unlikely to happen in the medium term.

Again, I ask, what do we do in the meantime while we wait for the world class vision of rapid charging to appear? We need to get as many people to switch as possible. AC can play a part in that. We have seen people come onto this forum and after discussion disregard EV because they dont have a home charge solution. I don't think large DC charge parks several miles away will convince them. It wouldn't convince me anyway (:))

liamog wrote: »

20 minute charging is an achievable target with todays technology. Stick these in a grocery store car park. My charging time is now 5 mins a week. I drive to the store, plug in, do my shop, unplug and drive home. I was doing the shop anyway. I'd rather see the investment provide this kind of setup instead of slow chargers everywhere.

Thats great, I'm all for grocery stores providing rapids.

I don't think thats where the govt should put its money though. A grocery store car park is a private enterprise and they can fund that themselves as a perk to their customers.

liamog wrote: »

I disagree with rapids only for long journeys, battery installations can be used to provide levelling across the grid. We will already have the majority of EVs being charged overnight at home. Adding on street scps isn't going to make much of a dent.

Adding batteries is good but that won't come cheap. It makes the installation significantly more expensive and will also increase maintenance and as we all know they will have a finite life resulting in expensive replacements over time.

In any case, the chances of our govt doing that are probably zero so its a moot point so you can't just dismiss the grid issues by saying batteries will solve it.

Do you believe the govt will fund battery levelling rapids?!

liamog wrote: »

This is a function of the current short range cars, realistically most won't care that their car has 300km of range instead of 400km because it's two days since they charged it.

I disagree, its not about todays cars. Regardless of whether I have to charge once or twice a week at a rapid I don't want to waste that time or have to potentially hit a queue where 20mins, becomes 40mins plus add on the time to get there.

I know you'll say, its done while picking up your groceries but I don't see how it is scalable to add 20, 30, 40 rapids to a grocery car park. The costs are just too high and the grid is going to have issues if thats the solution.

I've heard a few times on the forum that AC isn't scalable. I don't get that. We have AC all over the place and cars spend a large part of their time idle. The idea is to get CP's next to where those cars are parked. Surely thats better than forcing people to go to a rapid during the day?

liamog wrote: »

This to me is the real kicker, you see it as removing strain. I see it as removing customers. I want a commercially viable fast charging network that enables me to drive well outside my home range. I want to spend a week away from home and have a location where I can charge my car quickly. More customers equals more chargers.

I don't see it as just a strain vs customer issue. Its trying to get a balance that results in the best outcome in the medium term using a mix of AC and DC. Why can't AC be a significant part of it?

I'm all for your vision but imo your vision is currently too far out and not being realistic with what the cars on our roads (concept cars and Porsche Mission E's don't count) in the next 10yrs will be capable of and what money the govt have to invest. We need solutions now.

Maybe your crystal ball is better than mine but this EV evolution is moving a lot slower than we'd like to admit and we need to be realistic about what the govt can achieve in the next 5 years because we can't wait for private enterprise to solve it.

If I thought your vision was viable in the short term I'd ditch AC for it but I don't think it is because the cars don't exist and when they will (next 2-3yrs) it will be a few years after that before we have any decent numbers of them on the road due to supply constraints.

liamog wrote: »

I just don't think public SCPs are scalable in a world of cars with larger batteries.

Are home chargers scalable in a world of cars with larger batteries?
If yes, why aren't SCP's scalable? They are the same thing, they are just addressing a part of the market that can't have a metered CP at their house. Thats all. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Its a mixed solution.

liamog wrote: »

Centralized locations with multiple DC heads are the way forward. The technology is available today.

Im all for centralised location with multiple DC heads like you have shown with charge point below.

Bear in mind that when SCP's were mentioned by the LEV taskforce they were referring to off street charging not destination charging. Their plan for destination charging is to leave it to private enterprise (your grocery store rapid). I'd say bring that on as well.

liamog wrote: »

Chargepoint have a DC setup available that allows 8 connections https://www.chargepoint.com/files/datasheets/ds-expressplus.pdf
To me, this is the solution for on street parking. A fully equipped station allows up to 8 cars to charge at 125kW or when the station is not at 100% utilization a single car can charge at up to 400kW.

Looks like a decent rapid solution alright. That should be the kind of thing that gets put in next year to reduce queuing issues. Its what Tesla do with their load sharing so Im all for that. It doesn't resolve off-street charging though.

KCross · 17-12-2017 1:48pm

goz83 wrote: »

So there are two solutions I can think of right now.

With designated parking, a CP can be installed and the meter could be wirelessly connected to the home meter and it activated using a card, key, or app.

For undesignated parking, a number of CPs could be connected to a main CPU and an access card, or app could be used to add consumed units (along with a standing charge) to the relevant users home bill.

There would be no need for a pay on the spot system here, but it certainly could be added for when visitors arrive.

Ubitricity is also a good solution. You buy their lead and it has all the smarts built in to charge you and you can use that system anywhere a ubitricity point is installed. Perfect!

And that ubitricity solution doesn't have to be just lamp posts. It can be any CP they install.

Its those kind of solutions we need.

liamog · 17-12-2017 2:05pm

Let's assume people without on-street parking will want to plug their car in at the evening. Sometime between 7 and 10 they drive from their home to a local SCP. They park up and come back in the morning.
Effectively each SCP Spot is now occupied for 12 hours. Ok so you will only need to do it 2/3 times a week. So maybe we need one SCP for every six users in a 1 km radius (assuming a double headed SCP)

If a double headed modern rapid charger was provided in the same location, in the same three hours you could charge approx. 15 cars. People are also more able to charge at other times of the day, as your talking about finding 20mins instead of 6 hours.

We either need SCPs everywhere, or concentrated areas of rapid chargers to charge the same number of cars.

thierry14 · 17-12-2017 2:11pm

Goverment should just force every service station in the country that sells fuel to install at least one

Problem solved

If they don't comply

**** them, they cant sell fuel then

Too many service stations as it is

We can lose hundreds, no big deal

If they really start acting the maggots don't let them sell fags and booze

Too many drink and smoke too

I like what Shell are doing across Europe

KCross · 17-12-2017 2:20pm

liamog wrote: »

Let's assume people without on-street parking will want to plug their car in at the evening. Sometime between 7 and 10 they drive from their home to a local SCP. They park up and come back in the morning.
Effectively each SCP Spot is now occupied for 12 hours. Ok so you will only need to do it 2/3 times a week. So maybe we need one SCP for every six users in a 1 km radius (assuming a double headed SCP)

The idea would be that the CP would be in the place where their car is already parked every night. Im not talking about reserved EV spaces.

Alternative to that is that they go to the rapid and unfortunately some people will just have to do that depending on their street. I'm not saying SCP's will solve everything. Its just part of the solution.

liamog wrote: »

If a double headed modern rapid charger was provided in the same location, in the same three hours you could charge approx. 15 cars. People are also more able to charge at other times of the day, as your talking about finding 20mins instead of 6 hours.

A rapid on a street? Surely not. They are too big and would be a major eyesore. I definitely wouldn't be for that.

You seem convinced that people will readily accept the 20min charge time. I don't think they will unless the govt have beaten them over the head with a stick (higher taxes on ICE).

liamog wrote: »

We either need SCPs everywhere, or concentrated areas of rapid chargers to charge the same number of cars.

But this is the thing... This is the bit I don't understand.... why one or the other. Why not both?

KCross · 17-12-2017 2:21pm

thierry14 wrote: »

Goverment should just force every service station in the country that sells fuel to install at least one

Problem solved

If they don't comply

**** them, they cant sell fuel then

Too many service stations as it is

We can lose hundreds, no big deal

If they really start acting the maggots don't let them sell fags and booze

Too many drink and smoke too

I like what Shell are doing across Europe

I agree with that too, in principle. It might be hard to force that legally but it would be a major boost if every station had a charger and it would mean coverage in every corner of the country.

liamog · 17-12-2017 6:59pm

KCross wrote: »

The idea would be that the CP would be in the place where their car is already parked every night. Im not talking about reserved EV spaces.

Alternative to that is that they go to the rapid and unfortunately some people will just have to do that depending on their street. I'm not saying SCP's will solve everything. Its just part of the solution

A rapid on a street? Surely not. They are too big and would be a major eyesore. I definitely wouldn't be for that.

You seem convinced that people will readily accept the 20min charge time. I don't think they will unless the govt have beaten them over the head with a stick (higher taxes on ICE).

But this is the thing... This is the bit I don't understand.... why one or the other. Why not both?

The only way it works is if near enough every public space is provided with a SCP. I'd suggest this is a massive waste of resources and that strategic spending on rapid chargers fulfills the same need.

I don't want rapids on streets, I'm suggesting strategically placing them around neighbourhoods with approximately the same distribution as todays petrol stations and not using government money to install what are essentially private slow chargers.

All the freeloaders users that people complain about today prove that 20 minute charging at rapids is not the giant stumbling block that many believe. Todays 20 mins is 3/4 times a week at underspecced over utilized chargers. When it's 20 mins once a week at a multi head rapid next to local conveniences the question is a very different proposition.

Johnboy1951 · 17-12-2017 7:03pm

KCross wrote: »

I agree with that too, in principle. It might be hard to force that legally but it would be a major boost if every station had a charger and it would mean coverage in every corner of the country.

It would need to be regulated ...... including cost to customer.

But the gov could provide incentives, at least for the initial CPs.

IMO this would be the most suitable location for public access to CPs ....... drivers being used to calling to such locations would ease a lot of their hesitancy and fear about buying a BEV.

A 20 min stop at a service station with somewhere to sit and have a coffee seems quite reasonable.

liamog · 17-12-2017 7:10pm

I'd put a pollution tax on all fuel sales, then allow each fuel station to offset the tax with investment in EV charging stations.

If you were clever with the offsetting you would be able to encourage it based on available charging speeds and heads.
Installing a 2 head 350kW allows you to offset more than installing a single head 50kW

KCross · 17-12-2017 8:03pm

liamog wrote: »

The only way it works is if near enough every public space is provided with a SCP. I'd suggest this is a massive waste of resources and that strategic spending on rapid chargers fulfills the same need.

Not everywhere, just where it makes sense and the locals ask for it. i.e. maybe a grant to the LA for the install but after that it will be a paid for system that has to wash its face, so not a waste of resources at all.

And I still don't agree that a rapid several miles away fulfils the same need at all.

You'll be happy to know that increasing the rapids is the taskforce's number 1 priority. And that is for sure the first priority. I just think we shouldn't put all our eggs in that basket. If people don't buy EV's in the first place the rapid network will be wasted anyway.

liamog wrote: »

I don't want rapids on streets, I'm suggesting strategically placing them around neighbourhoods with approximately the same distribution as todays petrol stations and not using government money to install what are essentially private slow chargers.

I think you are over estimating the publics willingness to sit at a charger for 20mins every week.

liamog wrote: »

All the freeloaders users that people complain about today prove that 20 minute charging at rapids is not the giant stumbling block that many believe. Todays 20 mins is 3/4 times a week at underspecced over utilized chargers. When it's 20 mins once a week at a multi head rapid next to local conveniences the question is a very different proposition.

The freeloaders are just that, freeloaders. They don't count when planning for the future, where there will be charging for charging.

Personally, I would not switch to EV if I had to plan a 20min rapid charge every week (maybe twice a week). I don't think Im alone in that regard. Some will be happy enough as long as the running costs are low but I consider every minute sitting at a rapid a minute of my life wasted.

liamog · 17-12-2017 8:30pm

If it's structured in such away that private company x is allowed to install on-street SCP's as part of a commercial network using a transfer of the SEAI grant that would have gone to a home charger then ok.
The overall cost is net neutral and the strategic network can stick to enabling longer journeys and chargers that benefit the community instead of the individual.

You can't discount the current users of the system who regularly spend 20 minutes as they don't have at home charging.
These people are the model of the very problem you're trying to solve.
A number of the regular users at Blanch live in Tyrrelstown. An area with exactly the type off on-street parking that causes problems.
I believe that installing a rapid charging station at the Lidl in Tyrrelstown would have more of an effect at Blanchardstown than moving the current station to the N3 Mulhuddart Services.

They are not freeloaders, they are just users of the system who's usage conflicts with your own.

Fair enough, you don't want to find a 20 minute period during the week to go and charge your car. I suspect the number of people who move from ICE to EV and are not willing to change their active 10 minute fill ups to a 20 minute passive fillup will be much lower.

Johnboy1951 · 17-12-2017 8:55pm

liamog wrote: »

......
Fair enough, you don't want to find a 20 minute period during the week to go and charge your car. I suspect the number of people who move from ICE to EV and are not willing to change their active 10 minute fill ups to a 20 minute passive fillup will be much lower.

In total agreement!

10 mins per week Vs 20 mins ........ and no need to stand out in the rain and cold while the car fills, even if it is quick.

No splashing of fuel or smell, and hopefully a comfortable place to sit and have a coffee, and a quick chat maybe, to fill in the extra 10 mins.

As previously said ... have the chargers where people are used to stopping with their cars, such as petrol stations and shopping centres.

Heck, just thought of a great benefit ........ I could say I must stay in attendance at the charging car and let herself go do the shopping! (I hate shopping!

)

KCross · 17-12-2017 9:01pm

liamog wrote: »

Fair enough, you don't want to find a 20 minute period during the week to go and charge your car. I suspect the number of people who move from ICE to EV and are not willing to change their active 10 minute fill ups to a 20 minute passive fillup will be much lower.

I have my doubts. I would do 500km+ per week. Its above average but by definition not uncommon.

Lets say I have no home charging and I have a 60kWh car. Taking the outside Dublin view (since thats where I am!)... I would hazard an educated guess that there will probably only be a handful of these large DC charge parks in Cork city and surrounding satellite towns. For arguments sake lets say the nearest one to me is 10km away and not on my daily commute.

With a 60kWh car (56kWh usable) being charged to 80% at an average of lets say 80kW (thats Tesla supercharger level) and requiring at least 15% left on arrival it would require taking on 36kWh. That would be a 27min charge and thats not allowing for the detour time which isn't required if you have SCP's on your street.

Lets say its an efficient Ioniq so averaging about 13kWh/100km that would get me 278km. Half my weekly requirement! So I'd need to do another 30min charge and all that is assuming it all falls nicely for me to make a detour to the charger, which isn't nearby anyway.

Prior to the EV I used fill up once a fortnight (or thereabouts). I would be the very last person to switch to EV if I had to waste an hour of my week every week. I think a lot of ICE drivers will come to the same conclusion if they can't charge at home or on their street.

As I said a few posts back, if we have 1000s of rapids around the place then it would be different but thats not going to happen for a long time and we need solutions now.

goz83 · 17-12-2017 10:47pm

I live about 3 minutes from a rapid charger. If I had to use it twice a week because I had no access to a home charge point, I wouldn’t own a current gen EV. If I had access to an scp within 100 meters of my house/apartment, I would have an ev, but would dislike having to charge away from where I normally park.

We love convenience, so if people have to go out of their way to charge on a regular basis, the uptake will be very slow indeed.

reboot · 10-11-2022 11:37pm

Unfortunately it looks like EVs are going the way of smart phones,as complicated as chip manufacturers can turn them out,faster,heavier,cooking the lithium and bringing out the worst in their owners..."Who killed the electric car?" is indeed a sad documentary in its time, I wonder what Martin Sheen would make of the cituation over a decade on?

...Ghost... · 11-11-2022 10:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119859696#Comment_119859696

Mods lock please

SCP company gone bust, leaving charging situation in N.I in " Confusion"?

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