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Are people getting tired of all the billionaires and their billionairing?

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The principle is the same. It has been applied in many countries, at many times.

    Wealth taxes don't work, period.

    They just make the proponents and supporters of the tax feel better about themselves, which is independent from the real-world impact of the tax - namely, that the tax doesn't work.

    Leave wealthy people alone to do what they do best. Don't tax the hell out of them to the point where they disengage from the economic system in which they live, and move elsewhere.

    That leaves everyone worse off, and it acts as a disincentive to creativity and entrepreneurism generally.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,890 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    You have focussed again on me mentioing a "wealth tax" specifically.

    Sorry, I used that for a lazy shorthand for US govt. taking a bigger share generally than they do now and redistributing it. Critcising "wealth taxes" and crying over poor rich job creators being abused by the govt. doesn't negate the wider point (that the wealth/resources distribution in the US has gone out of whack).

    How exactly are the poor put upon rich people who lose some % extra to Uncle Sam in tax going to "disengage" from the US in a huff? (still the richest country on earth by a good distance with a giant consumer market, also a global superpower) I wonder? It would not be easy! Good luck to them finding Galt's Gulch.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm not even a billionaire, let alone a millionaire, but I have recently contemplated leaving this country for tax reasons. But I do have a business. And how that operates matters a great deal to me.

    If that applies to the little people like me, imagine how magnified the impact would be if you possessed an enormous business? You see it as "paying just a little bit more". It's never just "a bit", and there's always better places to conduct business. What matters is the bottom line, not where the business is conducted. And many businesses will opt to move rather than subject themselves to "paying just a little bit more".

    So be careful what you wish for, as it doesn't work out in the way that you think it might - again, in the real world of business, not in some hypothetical, fantasy world.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,890 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    (Sorry) just have to say that is a little weird to pull up your sticks + leave country you live in over the taxes going up if you are "not even a millionaire"? But then your political beliefs are a (massive) outlier in this country. The wringing of hands over US govt. (theoretically) taking a bigger % out of the hide of their own extremely rich people + the large companies that wish to operate there is touching.

    As for "impact being magnified" when it comes to the billionaires, while it might be easier to move your bank accounts or spend more time in one of your mansions in a foreign country or some such (as regards reducing personal taxes), well you can't take a company employing Americans + selling in US with you in the suitcase if you do decide to leave/burn all bridges in a snit because the regulations/laws have changed and some larger % of what was profit is now going to US govt.

    "There's always better places to conduct business" and "what matters is the bottom line, not where business is conducted" (i.e. the current net profit above all other concerns) is a sentiment that has somewhat been overtaken by world events of past few years IMO.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    You’re broadly right, a big part of Amazon’s success is down to consumer choices. Another big part of their success lies in encouraging and enabling consumerism, buying sh1te largely for the buzz of buying, rather than for any real need. I’ve managed to avoid Amazon for recent years.

    Perhaps consumers need to think a bit more strategically.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    I have used it twice personally and 1 time was an emergency. Cant stand the company. Way the strong armed books for example. And allowing stupid recommendations for bombs kits. You know oh a pipe you also may see others bought insert household chemicals.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,132 ✭✭✭✭smurfjed


    Sorry Beasty, but the rules are different for the USA,

    [I]There are several restrictions in place that would limit which ships can sail under the US flag. To be registered in the US, a cruise ship must:

    • Be built in the US.
    • Be staffed by US crewmembers who are paid US wages.
    • Be owned by a US company and registered in the US.

    [\i]



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I had assurances that being a billionaire and in charge of a company with much money was some kind of evidence of that rich person's own transferable skills.

    Who assured you of this nonsense?! You don't have to look very far in our own country to see that's not the case...



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Amazon also offer other business fantastic IT services for buttons through AWS. No small company wants the hassle of maintaing and patch their own IT infastructure so AWS will do it for them and can scale up or down depending on demand. e,g, web traffic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭AyeGer


    Musk is an intelligent guy and did well with Tesla to become a billionaire. I think his purchase of Twitter will prove to be a mistake.

    I’m glad the $8 blue tick has backfired on Musk. It’s a silly idea. It would only provide a temporary financial boost imo as people only want one to appear important.

    If they can’t figure out how to ensure the mess over the insulin tweet can’t happen again then blue tick is doomed anyway.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,488 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Wasn’t he a billionaire before Tesla, through selling PayPal to eBay?



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




  • Registered Users Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Ehh some of that is total disingenuous shyte.

    Amazon employs lots of people in warehouses, mostly on absolutely shyte conditions.

    Do you think that if amazon went bust in the morning that suddenly there would be 1.1 million people that would never work again?

    How the fook did people gets goods before Amazon ?

    And did the sources of those goods not employ anyone?

    Bezos has gotten massively rich on the backs of others and fact he pays shag all in taxes.


    And no matter how many risks old Jeff took it shouldn't mean he earns 58 times more than the average Amazon worker.

    It is the absolute sycophantic shyte that you are coming out with that has the world the way it is.

    You appear to buy into the claptrap that these people are so much smarter than the rest of us, work so much harder than all of us so deserve the billions as a reward.

    Bullshyte.

    A huge amount of their success is down to luck, being in the right place at the right time.

    And then they are given a free reign through their massive economic infleunce and by eejits lauding them as some kind of heroes.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,488 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    While I agree with the bit about luck, the rest of your post is manure.

    Those people working for Amazon are not physically tethered to the warehouse, if they can get a better job elsewhere, why don’t they? These are quintessential low skilled manual jobs which unless they are responsible for the performance of colleagues/ie in a management position, they are minimum pay jobs. If pay was related to hard we worked, then nurses and labourers would be billionaires, but only a fool equates the two. Bezos and his wife started selling second hand books from their spare room, saw a gap in the market and exploited it, if you can do the same thing, go ahead and do it.

    Everytime I go on Amazon to buy that item without leaving my house, that item I can’t get in my local shop or sometimes in this country, damn right I think Bezos is a hero.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Yourself and Eskimo should move to the states, you would be perfect sycophantic Republican voters.

    You could even get to vote for tax cuts and benefits for the rich.

    You just don't get it that you are helping make these people even richer and they are in no way sharing the burden of contributing equally to the pot.

    You will shout that the low skilled should train, get a better job.

    It is their own fault that their employer doesn't pay them more than a pittance.

    After all he needs to be able to spend 5 odd billion on frivolities like going to space.

    Hell maybe if Kenny's in Galway had treated their staff like shyte they could have gone to space as well.

    I don't mind Bezos being successful, doing well.

    But I do mind that he gets to make so much money off the backs of others, and that includes taxpayers in countries where he operates.

    Every dollar, pound or euro in taxes he and his company doesn't pay has to be paid for by the other normal taxpayers.

    In the US the company reported a record $35 billion in U.S. pretax income for fiscal year 2021 and the company’s effective federal income tax rate was just 6% which meant it avoided about $5.2 billion of federal income tax in 2021.

    It is kinda easy to be a billionaire with one of the highest valued companies in the world when you pay shag all tax in comparison to a lot of your competitors.

    Someone earlier mentioned Michael O'Leary and Ryanair.

    There is a huge fooking difference.

    AFAIK both pay taxes in this state and are not involved in tax havens or non resident.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,217 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    A society that allows a small cohort to become obscenely wealthy will only continue to function as long as the vast majority of the population is also becoming wealthier.

    One where the small cohort becomes obscenely wealthy at the expense of the majority and with an ever widening wealth gap is destined to end badly imo.

    Prior to the French Revolution, the top 10 percent of the population held about 90 percent of the country's wealth with the top 1 percent holding approximately 60 percent. As it stands today, it's estimated that the top 10% of households in the United States hold approximately 69% of wealth with the top 1 percent holding 32.3%. Not quite at the same level but certainly heading the same way and in a society that champions unfettered capitalism while regarding the word "socialist" as an insult, heading there fast.

    The UK wouldn't be that dissimilar but despite the Conservatives best efforts to completely dismantle the NHS and social welfare system they haven't managed it yet so we're not seeing the same dystopian levels of homelessness and medical bankruptcy as the US. With it looking pretty much inevitable that Labour will win the next election, and assuming they actually stick to their socialist principles should at least slow, if not somewhat reverse, the centralisation of wealth going on there.

    Ultimately though, with the current centralisation of global wealth into an elite billionaire class, and despite their control of print and broadcast media, I believe we're going to see a bloody socialist revolution in a major western power (most likely the US) in the next couple of decades. Trump may have been a grifter posing as a populist leader but the demographic he tapped into are still there, they didn't all die as a result of his handling of the Covid pandemic and I'm not at all convinced that these supposed right-wingers couldn't be lead against the elite by an enigmatic ideologue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,569 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Its all made up, all just numbers on a page, but they act as if those billionaires have stolen money from their own mouths.

    They effectively have. Certainly in the case where they steam roll competition or exploit their workforce or pay minimal tax, that is literally what they are doing.

    I've no issue with people desiring to become rich, or achieving their desire, but what has happened with a lot of Billionaires, definitely with Bezos, is that they been facilitated in doing so way in manners that outweighs their skill or contribution.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,488 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    All employers benefit from the hard work of their employees, if you are a business owner, you do too. But scale of course is different here, Amazon is an online behemoth which also makes its owners/shareholders vast amounts from their cloud based technology.

    If people get rich from it, fair **** as long as they act legally. If the jobs are minimum wage type jobs, then they are doing nothing illegal by paying minimum wage, again, the employees do not have to work there. Minimum wage levels exist for a reason, and like it or not, some jobs are minimum wage jobs.

    I lived and worked in the States, there is a lot wrong with it, but there is a lot good about it as well. One of them is that failure in business is not seen as a spectre hanging over you, you dust yourself off and try again, some succeed, some don’t, for the very few that success is spectacular, and fair does.

    I really don’t see why you think you deserve some of what Bezos or any other wealthy billionaire has, it doesn’t bother me what they make, but I sure as hell love being able to research and buy **** online, for that we can thank (and pay) Amazon and eBay.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,569 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    With respect to the current Billionaire on everyones mind, Elon Musk, is living proof of how someone can amass way more wealth than they have any right to do so.

    He may ultimately have the type of social media platform that he wants to have that still operates on a global way as Twitter has done. But even if he does manage this, which I doubt he will, his recent actions have shown an almost complete absence of insight, strategic analysis, forethought or skill.

    There are people online saying he's intentionally trying to destroy the platform and to them I would say that if he was, and had even a fraction of the capability that people think he had, he could have done so without making a fool of himself as he is doing.

    In the past, he successfully diverted the conversation from high speed trains because he didn't want Tesla impacted by literally promising a mono-rail that has yet to arrive, he promised to give 6B to solve world hunger but when the UN responded with a plan of how to spend that money, he went silent. He has 'gamed' various markets merely by expressing an opinion and that is simply not for societies benefit to have such a thing possible.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,488 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Why doesn’t he or anyone else have a right to amass such wealth?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,569 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Because such wealth is disproportionate to their skill or effort. I'm not saying that they've no skill or don't put in any effort, but that such obscene wealth is not reflective of it.

    Bezos's wealth increased 7 fold from 2012 to 2022, Musk's over 100fold. And both of them were billionaires at that point already. They, and many other Billionaires profit through being in the right place at the right time, and sometimes they have not exactly been too morally upstanding in either getting themselves in to that place, or ensuring that the events of that time happened as they did.

    Both of them are strongly anti-union, optimise Government subsidies where they can and have paid disproportionally small amounts of tax on such wealth.

    In that same period that Billionaires increased their wealth, the numbers of those who classify as living in poverty also increased significantly. These 2 events might not be directly related, but they are symptoms of policy that have favoured certain sectors of society over others.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,488 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    So what?

    There are a minuscule number of billionaires in the world, and apart from inheritance, they all have one thing in common, they cater to our needs or desires, that is what makes them rich. If you want to be rich, find something that no one, or few can do, then sell it to the masses. If you are just like everyone else, you don’t deserve to have what they have.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That's the whole point.

    They don't want to put the work in, and instead want to do the easiest thing in the world - looking atop the hill with the man with a mansion, pointing the finger, and saying I want all his cash redistributed to all us little people down here, and then I can feel good about myself.

    The politics of envy writ large.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,569 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    So what?

    The ten richest people on the planet hold the same wealth as the bottom 4Billion (Apparently it's actually much grater than a disparity than that, but let's go with that). And these 4Billions quality of life could be vastly improved if this wealth was more equally distributed.

    None of these billionaires, at least those in existence today, can do something that no one else can do. Elon Musk is proving to us daily just how much this is the case. The main thing that most of them have in common is that they they have been lucky enough to benefit from a society that allows those who get ahead, to more easily keep expanding their wealth. Some to an obscene degree.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,488 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Which of those 4billion invented Amazon/PayPal/Tesla/Microsoft etc?

    If you can do what they can/did, prove it, let’s see you build a multi billion business.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Throwing money at poor people doesn't help in the way that you think. It doesn't cure poverty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,569 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Who do you think works harder, Elon Musk, or an immigrant trying to work 2/3 jobs to support a family?

    And before you twist what I am saying, I'm not saying they should be paid the same, or the immigrant should have his wealth, you referred to working hard, that's what I'm talking about.


    None of them. But Bezos didn't invent online shopping, he has just been lucky enough to be the primary person to capitalize on it because the market facilitated him doing so. The same with the Walton family, they didn't invent the department store, they have just capitalized on its existence.

    Elon Musk didn't invent PayPal or Tesla.

    Many people would laugh at the idea that Bill Gates invented computer applications such as word processors or spreadsheet applications etc but leaving that aside, the US literally forced him to split his company to avoid monopolization.

    I'm not suggesting these guys shouldn't be wealthy, by all means give them 100's of millions, even single digit billions, but once their wealth starts going in to the tens or hundreds of billions, its gone beyond their input or value. At that point, they are exploiting something, or someone or often both. Capitalism says that that is fine, I disagree.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,569 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how




  • Registered Users Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Hungry Burger


    Depends,

    If they are Bill Gates and want to buy up half the arable farmland in America and fund various shady left wing NGO’s and causes = all good 🥰

    If they are Elon Musk and want to create a social media platform where all viewpoints are welcome = bad man 😡



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,488 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Bezos exploited a gap in the market to sell second hand books online. Now we can all sell **** online, but few of us can identify an opportunity, and then build it into a huge business. A lot of these people started with nothing, or very little, but had the foresight and/or talent to build extremely successful companies. It shows an incredible level of stupidity to say they are no different from everyone else, because the obvious retort would be, why then can’t everyone else do what they do/did?

    It is also hypocritical, why should you earn more than anyone else who has your level of intelligence or your work ethic? The fact is that not all things are equal, and when Communists tried to make it so, it failed miserably. Saying that successful people shouldn’t accumulate wealth because others can’t, is to assume that everyone tries the same, thinks the same and has the same talent, which we all know simply isn’t the case. I wonder how many of those 4billion you speak of are layabout good for nothings who never worked a day in their life, will do as little as possible when they are working, or couldn’t be arsed trying to do/earn more?



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