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Are people getting tired of all the billionaires and their billionairing?

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Elon Musk is worth around 200 billion I think.

    If this wealth were spread around the population of India, that would be $6 for each Indian.

    Poverty problem stopped? No.

    A great entrepreneur destroyed? Yes.

    200 billion sounds like a lot when it wouldn't go that far in solving poverty, barely a drop in the ocean.

    Most of that wealth is tied up in stock and so on anyway, making the situation even worse than you're suggesting.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,217 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    It's both incredible, and incredibly depressing, how far some will go to defend those that wouldn't even wash their arse before letting them lick it...

    Elon Musk invented nothing, he got lucky in the dot com boom with a registry listing site he and his brother built with their family's apartheid based fortune and luckier again when he invested the over-inflated sale value of that company into paypal...

    Jeff Bezos didn't invent anything or innovate in any way. He simply spotted the opportunity that on-line marketplaces represented and set out to try and create a monopoly in that space (as did many others at the time - Value America being one of the more spectacular failures). His main talent was convincing the markets to keep letting him burn their millions in order to get Amazon to a big enough market share that it could act as a virtual monopoly.


    These guys aren't geniuses, they're simply rich. And they've got richer because governments all around the world have made it ridiculously easy to make even more money when you're already rich through legal tax avoidance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Actually the "great" companies you mention I would say are just marketing successes over substance.

    Microsoft the purveyor of shyte products, ideas nicked from others and then used it's position to drive competitors with better products out of the market if they didn't get to take them over.

    Microsoft invented the business model where software developers sell the customer cr** half working products and then expect the customers to try iron out the bugs.

    Tesla the manufacturer of shyte over priced cars that gimps are falling over themselves to buy as some sort of status symbol.

    There is a reason that Tesla's are at the bottom of the JD Power Survey.

    Amazon started off selling books online that were cheaper and often not always quickly accessible in bricks and mortar stores.

    Of course you will tell us how great they are with their AWS offering, but you may forget to mention that was funded from massive reserves that they like others in your list have built up due to them paying shag all in taxes.

    Fair enough Paypal was a good idea, but one could argue that some of the ones that followed have been better.

    The one company that you didn't mention that had more of a true visionary and that was Jobs and Apple.

    Then again he nicked his original ideas from Xerox.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,488 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    You don’t think creating the Amazon marketplace/PayPal/Microsoft/Apple/eBay/Stripe/Tesla etc was innovation?

    The wheel was invented thousands of years ago, was strapping a chassis and engine to it not innovation?

    Seriously? What was it then?

    Bar inheritance and winning the lotto, few people get rich by doing the same as others who can’t see an opportunity and don’t have the talent to make it work to their benefit.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,569 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    A lot of these people started with nothing, or very little, but had the foresight and/or talent to build extremely successful companies. 

    Gate's parents were highly educated, wealthy and had access at the corporate level to many of the countries biggest companies.

    Bezos started Amazon with a 300K loan from his parent and other funding from family friends.

    Musk grew up in an extremely wealthy and privileged family.

    I'm not saying these guys are just run of the mill intellects, not at all, but they benefitted greatly from the circumstances that they were born into which allowed them to optimize their intellect and that opportunity. They are not the only people to be born in such circumstance and many (most) are nowhere near as successful as these guys, so fair play to them, but they're no Albert Einstein or Nikolai Tesla.

    And lets put the communist strawman argument to bed, I'm not advocating for that. I'm advocating for more equitable distribution of wealth that is more reflective of actual contribution rather than luck of opportunity that some enjoy coupled with their hard work and intellect (which some have more than others).

    A lot of these people started with nothing, or very little, but had the foresight and/or talent to build extremely successful companies. 

    I wonder how many of those 4billion you speak of are layabout good for nothings who never worked a day in their life, will do as little as possible when they are working, or couldn’t be arsed trying to do/earn more?

    Vastly less, as a percentage I expect than those who have been born in a world of easy access to opportunity and wealth.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,569 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    You do know that this post suggests that the population of India is about 33Billion?

    You might want to have a think about that.

    Musk himself previously claimed he could solver world hunger for 6B (3% of his current reported worth). When the UN gave him a pathway to do this, he went very quiet.

    And, like with the last guy I've responded to, I'm not suggesting taking his wealth and distributing it in one singular payment. I'm advocating for improved working conditions and payment for people so that a single or handful of people don't grow vast wealth while many of the workers of the company struggle.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I've never referred to Bezos or Musk as "geniuses". I'd reserve that title for the likes of Einstein and other experts in modern physics.

    But they are very good businessmen.

    All the armchair critics think being a highly successful businessman is easy, or that it's handed on a plate for you. When it really isn't.

    Yet again more spite and vindictiveness against people just because they happen to be wealthy and successful.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,488 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Did Gates parents invent Microsoft? Were Jobs parents in the garage when himself and Woz invented the first Apple computer? Were Bezos’s parent in their spare room when he and his wife packaged second hand books and posted them to buyers?

    Surely you recognise that though they may have possessed the same skill set and opportunities as others at the time, they were different, and as a result of that, they benefitted.

    What makes you, or me different to everyone else? Probably very little, but they are different to me and you, how do I know this? Because we didn’t/haven’t done what they have done, why is that?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Seriously in the grand scheme of automotive engineers Musk ranks, ehhh nowhere.

    Oh wait he is the only guy to have created a successful automotive company in US since, I don't know Henry Ford.

    BTW he didn't found it, he bought into it and then invested his already vast wealth.

    And as Sleepy mentioned I think about Bezos, Musk was for some reason able to convince investors and customers to hang around and even weirder pay more that they originally agreed for their cars.

    That is his greatest achievement.

    He definitely aint no Diesel, Benz, Otto, Daimler, Porsche, Chapman, Ford or Piëch.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This is just irrational hatred against billionaires, and nothing more.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,488 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Jesus wept, Tesla is at the forefront of EV vehicles and technology, one of the greatest advances since the advent of the combustion car engine.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,569 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Yet again more spite and vindictiveness against people just because they happen to be wealthy and successful.

    Nope. Wrong.

    I have little time for Musk/Bezos because they have simultaneously become 'beyond' wealthy while fighting against their workers being able to unionize to advocate for their collective rights. And they have done this while profiteering on massive government incentives and subsidies when, in the case of Bezos, a lot of their workers work a 40 hour week and still cannot have an acceptable standard of living.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,488 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    How many of those people does Jeff Bezos force to work for Amazon?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Would you mind telling us how many Tesla patents have Musk's name on them ?

    You and the eskimo lad are one minute telling us what great innovators these lads are and then when that is debunked you revert to what great business men they are.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,488 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    A quick google shows that Tesla has 3300 patents globally. Surely you understand that the patents are registered by the company rather than by the main shareholder.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,569 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    You tell me.

    He has decimated the retail market industry over the last 10 years.

    Thousands of people who before might have had their own store, delivery service or whatever are now just worker bees in the Bezos metaverse.

    The entire low-skilled work space has seen increased exploitation of workers over the last 50 odd years. The minimum wage reached it's peak in real value in 1968 and if had increased in line with inflation, would be $24 today rather than the $7.25 it is. CEO's used to earn about 19 times what their workers earn, now it's over 300 times the difference.

    Telling people to shut up or go to another location where they are likely going to be treated in a similar exploitative manner is not the argument you think it is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,569 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how




  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Bezos, Gates, Dell etc. had money thrown at them by their parents and it worked out really well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,890 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Because it becomes incompatible with democracy when you have private entities + individuals with this level of power (given to them by their wealth if discussing people like Musk or Bezos/the huge resources + a monopoly or "too big to fail" position in the case of the large MNC companies, which is of course a connected problem).

    As we all know, democracy in the US looks to be in no great shakes at all, and may not survive past next few years if the wrong/right people get their hands on the controls. I don't think these things (growth of inequality, the funnelling of wealth/resources into fewer hands and the rot eating away at US politics + society) are unconnected.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




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  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    $143.

    It was real easy to check before posting.

    With a median salary of $422 per month in India, this distributed to each person would be equivalent to a major stimulus release - like the ones conservatives blame for “nobody wanting to work anymore etc”

    That actually is a lot of money and can provide upward mobility to countless Indians out of poverty…



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I made a math error in haste, I admit.

    That said, if you believe that $143 per person will solve the Indian poverty problem, then I have some seafront property in Offaly to sell you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,488 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Ok, I will,

    Jeff Bezos does not force a single employee to take a job at Amazon against their will, not one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    “Surely you understand,” that the inventors are still listed on the patent.

    Again, folks, you don’t have to wait to fact check yourselves before you post.

    Only 10 of these patents you speak of have Elon credited as an inventor. Well, not even 10 Tesla patents.

    https://patents.google.com/?inventor=Elon+musk&oq=Elon+musk



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭growleaves


    There are strong corporatist elements to the success of Amazon, SpaceX, Tesla and others.

    Amazon moved to a state (Ohio?) that gave tax exemptions to online businesses and then used these tax advantages to undercut all their competitors and then bury them.

    France then prevented them from repeating this in their own market by giving legislative protection to SMEs in the bookselling trade.

    "Tesla has received more than $3.2 billion worth of direct and indirect California subsidies and market mechanisms since 2009, according to an estimate from Newsom's office."

    I do not like the fawning admiration for these CEOs and watching large corporate chains use regulations and tax tricks to wipe the floor with SMEs and put countless independents out of business is not edifying to me. WalMart and Microsoft too.

    They haven't produced a superior product as such, just made use of political advantages to undercut on price. Well give me tax and other advantages over my competitors and I'll show you a successful business too.

    Now granted life isn't fair and that's just how things go but then we are constantly being asked to admire and suck up to these people which I find distasteful.

    Granted Tesla is impressive but then so was DeLorean - yet DeLorean that wasn't kept alive by endless subsidies. It went kaput.

    Netscape, a casualty of Microsoft and Bill Gates' anti-competitive tricks, had a superior product in Navigator.

    It isn't a free market at the top because there is too much at stake, so winners and losers are chosen to an extent. I would call it semi-corporatist at the very least.

    Bezos should not be allowed to turn non-union workers into a slave army. Teddy Roosevelt broke up the railroads for less.

    Antitrust legislation is long overdue for these companies which use their market share as a vehicle for direct interference in world affairs in the case of Bezos and Dorsey, and now Musk.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Your hero Bezos started selling books with his wife from his garage, with a little bit of help by way of a $250,000 investment from his parents. Sure any of us could have done the same, right?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,488 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Are Tesla not the applicants, is it not a Tesla registered patent?. Though I do concede that the Tesla employees, or whom they bought it off are listed as the inventors, it is a Tesla assigned patent.

    My point stands though, it is Tesla, not its main shareholder listed on the patent as the owner/assignee. Without Tesla/Musk the conditions would not exist for those patent applications, so saying he is not innovative because he isn’t the actual inventor is simple.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Seen it lived it. Family of 4 gets a months national median salary.

    11.7 million Americans lifted above the poverty line by stimulus:

    By contrast the monthly US median salary is $6,000. The Stimulus was $1200(x2 or x3), about half a months salary.

    The napkin stimulus you’re suggesting would imply that in fact that amount of money would be significant in the Indian economy where it would be more than the monthly median salary in stimulus, not half or doled out in breadcrumbs. That kind of stimulus could reshape the Asian economy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    "Above the poverty line" is temporary.

    That money will exhaust quickly. The fundamental causes of the poverty problem will remain untouched.



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