Qatar World Cup

How did I misrepresent what @Sleepy is arguing? He’s not trying to argue that what he’s doing isn’t wrong, he’s arguing that anyone else doing the same thing is just as guilty of wrongdoing as he is.

The underlying premise of the argument is fundamentally flawed. What’s worse is attempting to justify his own breaches of his principles by claiming he does it out of necessity.

That doesn’t make his actions any more excusable to the next moral crusader who takes their self-deprivation and martyrdom to the next level in order to maintain they are morally superior to everyone else beneath them, based upon a standard which suits them which other people don’t recognise as having any legitimacy or authority whatsoever.

No poor effort at all. What I was saying is that @Sleepy can justify his actions to himself, then by that same standard so should anyone else be able to do the same thing, rendering his condemnation meaningless. The only reason it’s not is because Sleepy applies a different standard to himself. That doesn’t explain why his actions are any different, they just are, somehow.

The real reason is of course because Sleepy wants to condemn anyone going to the World Cup as supporting ideas and holding values which they do not. It’s like saying to anyone “Well if you REALLY cared about human rights abuses, you wouldn’t do this, that or the other”. It’s entirely possible for people to go to the World Cup for whatever their reasons are, while simultaneously holding the belief that Qatar has an appalling Human Rights record. To suggest otherwise is just silly and self-serving.

You may have missed the earlier posts where he justifies things like buying a phone or having to travel to these countries for work, out of necessity - a justification which is entirely unnecessary IMO, because I don’t care to judge him for doing so, because I don’t make the same associations he does in the first place because he feels guilty about it, and we’re all guilty of wrongdoing.

As for the idea of pointing out anyone’s hypocrisy, I’ve always found that trying to reason with people generally has a more positive and productive outcome than attempting condemnation and humiliation which doesn’t convince anyone of anything.

I guess YMMV.

Human Rights Watch has no presence in Qatar, they phone up people and stitch together a press release from unrelated quotes.

Dr Nasser Mohamed is Qatari by birth, but he lives in California

The only thing that the Qatari police do clamp down on heavily is prostitution. There is no desire to copy Dubai in that regard.

As for slaves, there certainly are people working in Qatar doing work that you would not do and for pay that you would not accept. But then you are one of the privileged minority in this world.

Do you understand the 6,500 number? Let me ask you three questions:

• over what timeframe;
• out of what population; and
• is that number higher or lower than would have been expected if these workers had stayed at home.

I'm happy to get into that analysis with you if you wish.

Gay people are not arrested in Qatar, that's just BS, there is probably no place in the world where you are more likely to see two men holding hands than the Arab world. The death penalty should be taken off the statute books, but that often takes time. In Ireland there was almost half a century between the last execution and the death penalty referendum.

The regime in Qatar is not repressive - it is not a liberal democracy for sure, but then neither is 90% of the world.

I can’t stand these football ‘experts’ who think they know everything about football but know sweet f a (sorry)

Having got that off my chest I’m backing Italy to win it and it goes without saying that Haaland will win the Golden Boot, I would expect Salah to net a few too.

😁😁

If you are looking for Brewdog, The Shamrock tavern in Doha have Brewdog on their menu.

So you have your doubts on your previous declarations :)

It's absolutely disgusting this is happening, but I will be watching every moment of it, it's the world cup like. I didn't choose Qatar to host it, just like the players and coaches, don't feel guilty about watching it.

Qatar can try to wash their image as much as they want with shite hawks like Beckham but the dogs on the street know this is a bought world cup by a backwards **** hole human rights abusing dictatorship.

No, not applying different standards to myself, I'm recognising that different actions can be judged differently:

Working in Ireland without a mobile phone is a very difficult thing to do and tbh, I've only learned of Fairphone as a result of this thread. When my current mobile dies I'll be asking work to source one of their handsets to replace it. I'm not going to judge anyone for the fact they have a mobile that likely has component's which haven't been ethically sourced when I wasn't even aware myself that it's possible to choose a better alternative until recently.

Likewise, if someone is sent to visit Qatar or the UAE for a work trip by their employer I'm not going to judge them for it: it's not of their choosing and it's possible they're not in a position to refuse without losing their job.

Choosing to visit these countries for a holiday, to support a sports team or to go work there as an ex-pat aren't the same thing imho. It's a decision one has freely made to ignore human rights abuses for one's own entertainment or because it's financially advantageous to do so. It's easily avoided.

I just want to watch football, i will switch off any woke broadcasters wetting themselves to be "seen" as highlighting issues

https://benderslikebeckham.com/

I will never hear the end of this.

The blame of this lands squarely on Jack Warner and Platini. Warner held the most influential position in FIFA due to the size of his confederation and sold Qatar the WC. Not even Blatter wanted Qatar win as he knew it would bring the house of cards down.

What?

For sure, different actions can be judged differently, and different people are bound to have different standards, so your judging your own and other people’s actions by your standards, is no different than them doing the same thing.

The only person tying themselves up in all sorts of anxious knots is yourself, and that’s not a criticism of you personally at all btw, it’s an observation of your commitment to your principles that you’d go so far as to ask your employer to provide you with a fair phone which costs about the same as a second hand iPhone… which is fine, you do you and all, but other people who don’t feel the same guilt about their actions aren’t likely to follow your lead. That’s all I’m saying.

I’ll admit it, you had me for a second there 😝👏👏

Accommodation has arrived. Two giant cruise ships have docked at Doha:

You have your numbers incorrect.

There are 3m people living in Qatar, and approximately 10% or 300,000 are Qatari.

Everyone else, Arab, Asian, European, whatever, is a transient worker. If you are not Qatari you cannot live in Qatar without a sponsor, which effectively means without a job. If you lose your job you must leave.

So the only permanent residents, the Qataris, number 300,000. There however are many families, mainly Asian and Indian, but also some Europeans who have been in Qatar for generations, normally under the sponsorship/patronage of an influential Sheikh.

You suggest that the Qataris have no history of playing football, but you are perhaps not aware that there is a vibrant professional league. The final of their equivalent if the FA Cup, called the Emir of Qatar Cup attracts huge crowds. The 2022 final was limited, due to Covid, to 30,000, but it sold out. Finally, you may not be aware that Qatar are the current Asian Cup holders. They beat Japan (former World Cup hosts) in the final.

Qatar Stars League - Wikipedia

Emir of Qatar Cup - Wikipedia

2019 AFC Asian Cup Final - Wikipedia

I don't think the stadiums will be empty, though dead rubber group games between lesser supported teams will, as always, be unattractive.

There will be a huge number of visitors flying in from Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Oman, Kuwait, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Turkey and Lebanon. Many will be staying with friends, and also many (especially from the UAE) will be flying in and out on match day.