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So "X" - nothing to see here. Elon's in control - Part XXX **Threadbans in OP**

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  • Registered Users Posts: 478 ✭✭CptMonkey


    So what does this mean? I’m not up on the programming side of things?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,876 ✭✭✭bokale


    Just think of it as many applications that work together to provide the functionality as opposed to one massive application(monolith) doing it all.

    So he is going to start turning the ones that aren't needed off. 80 per cent of them. Hmm..



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    It doesn't really mean anything.

    "Micro services" are how modern online properties are built.

    Simply put , instead of building one big monolithic block of code that has to be opened up to make changes , you instead break all the functionality up into multiple Micro Services so if you want to make a change to a specific part of the website you only have to open up that single micro service which simplifies coding and testing and reduces risks etc.

    So Musk saying "We're turning off the micro services" makes utterly no sense whatsoever.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,500 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Hahahaha. This man is an idiot. Anyone who idolises him is a fool. Musk is railing against something on which he knows nothing. No, worse: he's showing what an archaic dinosaur he is and obviously hasn't worked in IT since his days at PayPal et al.

    At best there's an argument these MicroServices aren't doing anything but i highly doubt it. We run about 15 at the moment and our frontend apps about 6 or 7 of those. None of them are indispensable though. Some only do 1 thing for the frontend so again, at best you could argue we could do that one thing in another service - but that's getting pedantic. And it can be a massive undertaking.

    What a dinosaur. Maybe he thinks all the code should be in one giant main() function and anything beyond that is affectation. I'd not be surprised. Monolithic code is insanity. Maybe he thinks MicroServices are built by blue haired feminists?

    Hahahaha.

    Oh god it's laughable.

    Post edited by pixelburp on


  • Posts: 266 [Deleted User]


    Has he eliminated the use of unilateral phase detractors yet? The side fumbling issues were becoming very problematic.




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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,500 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Well, that's what you get.

    So I'm guessing what happened: IT dinosaur Musk decided to micromanage the Twitter tech stack, decided he'd play CTO. Probably demanded an audit of all the services running, took out a red marker and ordered the Devs to turn off stuff he didn't understand - or nobody remains around to explain what they did.

    I'd not mind but I doubt switching off individual MicroServices had any quantative effect on the bottom line.

    I'd laugh only the idea of Twitter going further down the shítter is great for humanity. As to Musk, to invoke the wisdom of the crowd:




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,118 ✭✭✭Royale with Cheese


    He probably just got a list of all their services, ranked them by the amount of traffic going through them and then ordered the bottom 20% to be switched off.

    Then sat back and admired his own genius.

    I would really really love if Elon had 2fa enabled and somebody who had access to their live systems just logged him out.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,500 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I presume this will be fixed and they'll switch the 2FA services back on, among all the other aspects of Twitter that just broke. Surely Musk isn't such a fool to at least revert his rash decisions? Oh god, no. He'll probably just get the developers to duct-tape the dead services into the remaining live ones - Sunk Cost n' all that.

    This is why we have a CTO folks, and they tend to operate with autonomy. And why Helicopter Management is not a good thing, no matter how many kazillions the boss made with electric cars.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Cordell


    He really is a tool but maybe that's the tool needed to fix Twitter.

    What Twitter doesn't need is the incompetent Android app team, which according to the Twitter engineer own admission is poorly written, bloated and ridden with tech debt. And he spent 6 years working on it:




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,500 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I wouldn't call that incompetence: point two about Tech Debt is very important here. What it says is that Twitter leadership emphasised fast delivery over good delivery. Which, TBH, is a fairly common approach among tech companies of late - the thinking that you constantly iterate and release, and the ideal that you include bug fixes and improvements as part of that natural momentum.

    But what inevitably happens is Tech Debt[*] gets shunted down the priority lists as Management ask for more "stuff". The pressure to deliver a certain level of MVP means you fall foul of the whole "you can have it fast, good, or cheap - but you can only pick two". And if they're waiting for Network Responses ... then it sounds like their backend needs improving. Little the Android team can do if they're waiting for responses from Slow servers. Again, this is something we experienced in my own tech-stack, and working with the backend team we managed to identify slow resposnes that made the frontend "Feel" faster. But the frontend could only do so much magic before we had to push the backend team to make it better.

    [*] For those who don't get it: Tech Debt is basically the accumulated "we'll fix or make it better later" tasks that come with delivering items at a certain speed, or based on a certain deadline. So you get it working first, then at an agreed point in the future, go back and make it better. Good tech management will give runway to do this - a bad one will just let the Tech Debt accumulate - as this developer notes. Eventually there'll be so much TEch Debt it's just functionally impossible to go back and rewrite code 'cos the live stuff has become a mess of "making do".



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,288 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    You have just described every application in production today. Every application contains poorly written code, technical debt etc its a fact of life. These applications often represent the best smart, experienced people can do given the hardware, software and business environment, They know where the problems and what the fixes are, its just that don’t have the means to fix it.

    When you bring in a new set of engineers the first thing they’ll do is rewrite the application, oh it won’t be described as that! It will be paying back technical debt, bug fixing, refactoring etc… And yes some of the issues will disappear to be replaced by new issues now being worke on by under pressure inexperienced engineers.

    When you don’t know what it takes to run these complex environments it really is better to leave it to people who actually do, as Musk will now demonstrate over the coming months and maybe a year or two before he comes up with some excuse to throw in the towel avoiding any recognition of his own stupidity for spending real money to buy a house of cards.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Cordell


    It's not important who allowed an Android app, which is supposed to be a thin client, become bloated and overloaded with tech debt for 10 years and going to the point it can't be fixed without significant effort. What's important is that this shows incompetence and inept leadership and management and complacent engineers. And don't assume I haven't worked with systems with similar or greater complexity. And also don't assume I haven't seen the same :)



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,500 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Not assuming anything; but "incompetence" is a needlessly hostile accusation to put at the feet of the developers, when many of these scenarios are complex and not remotely black & white. Self-analysis is the hardest of all, and it can be difficult to find the time or headspace to step back from an existing pipeline and re-assess one's own structure. Much easier in SMEs than corporations for sure.

    The developers' arguments to Musk seem like perfectly reasonable explanations why the app remains a problem - but Musk's response, and demonstrated management style thus, don't give any indication that there'll be an attempt to arrest this culture, be it accidental or deliberate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,437 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    yeah because he has done a bangup job so far. Imagine firing an employee that contradicted you when you were wrong.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    How long before Musk does a John McAfee and buys a compound in Belize and then goes on the run before saying if he dies he was actually murdered.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Is it? When a team's product becomes worse year after year for 10 years going, then what's that called? I think in the corporate world things became too cozy, incompetence and inefficiency and bad performance is not called out early and this too often results in small things getting piled up in a big disastrous event instead of being fixed when they need to be fixed.

    He is a tool and a horrible person, I always admitted to this. But maybe this is what needs to be happening, those engineers who instead of being proud of their work feel the need to have a public go at that very work and at their CEO may be not the right engineers needed to turn Twitter around as to make is profitable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,437 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    you think contradicting elon is having a go? how very thin skinned of you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭jimmybobbyschweiz


    That Twitter employee admitting he has done a poor job the last few years says it all and the irony certainly seems to be lost on him by the great points he seems to think he is making.

    It's the same as people thinking Twitter was not a cesspit before Elon took over when Twitter was Trump's platform of choice for years before Elon was ever involved! It just needs to disappear as a company at this stage.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Cordell


    It's a shame that people remember John McAfee as a nutcase and not as the brilliant and visionary engineer that he was.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,437 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




  • Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭jimmybobbyschweiz


    It's what he is saying;

    "I have worked on this the past few years and am therefore qualified to say it is a crock of crap".



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Isn't that always the case though?

    You can have had a lifetime of amazing work and achievement which you can flush by a single (or in McAfees case , many) act of stupidity.

    Like the old joke goes -

    A man goes into a pub in a small town and, for whatever reason, gets introduced to the clientele. There’s Farmer Jack, Barman Jim, Maurice “Dancer” and Sheep shagger John. After a few pints, the visitor’s curiosity gets the better of him and he asks John what’s with the nickname.


    “See this pub?” asks John, “I built it, but they don’t call me Pub builder John? I’m the local doctor, I saved Barman Jim’s life once when he choked on a peanut, but they don’t call me Lifesaver John. Every year, I supply a huge Christmas tree for the village green, but the don’t call me Christmas Tree John.

    “But you shag one lousy sheep…”




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,500 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I don't entirely disagree with you - but it can come down to culture. And, for that matter, something as simple as who's still there after those 10 years. Easy to say "...call it out early", but what do you do when the original architects from tech to management have moved on and a bunch of developers inherit a PoS codebase? Depending on the culture it could be next to impossible for even the gutsiest new developer to put their oar in and say "we need to stop adding stuff and fix this app".

    I've been there and just with a recent US corporation I worked for, can think of a couple of internal tools that fit that bill. Absolute atrocious pieces of shít apps but for a host of reasons "fixing" them was next to impossible. Not least because those with the largest hats in the company had the "it works, doesn't it?" and that kinda ended those conversations.

    Mind you. Getting into a spat with Musk was the wrong move by those developers - and may cost them in any future interviews if they now get a reputation as the type to air their dirty laundry in public. Equally though, I can see why a disgruntled developer might have had enough of Musk waving his díck about in public and barking about things he doesn't know or understand. That in of itself might charm other companies. As I said, Musk shouldn't be doing the CTO's job, and doing it so badly. TRying to shame Twitter's tech department isn't going to instil loyalty or enthusiasm



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Yes, he did. He said that we did these 3 bad things, and we did them for years on end, so much so that the solution to fix our bad job is basically start from scratch.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,437 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




  • Registered Users Posts: 40,437 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    he was criticising decisions made to prioritise velocity over quality. he didnt make those decisions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Some large corporations are profitable enough to afford that kind of "culture" but Twitter isn't. And even for those large ones, it comes a time when that culture come back to bite them in the arse. And indeed Musk shouldn't be doing the CTO's job, that is, if only Twitter had a competent one :)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Cordell


    He still did a bad job even if it wasn't his decision to do a bad job. You don't stay for 6 years in a team doing a bad job as directed from above and still call yourself a good engineer.



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