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UK Championship Barbican York, 12th - 20th November BBC, Eurosport

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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Thought everything ronnie said in that interview was just about spot on tbh. He's right that there's no manual to teach young players how to deal with the pressure of playing big tournament matchplay. I suppose you can adapt and get better at it over the years but there's so many talented players that just never really do. Not sure any coach can help you with it either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭Sweet Talkin Romeo


    My predictions for tonight:

    Sam Craigie to beat Ryan Day 6-2

    Mark Allen to beat K Wilson 6-3

    done a €5 dble on Allen @ 9/10 and Craigie @ 5/4



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?



    He’s wrong and he’s a hypocrite.


    He worked with Steve Peters for years to learn to deal with pressure. He worked with Ray Reardon on match play. He had a huge amount of help from both and would be an also ran without them.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 18,824 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Yeah I thought that myself as well when he said pressure never affected him! This was the same fella who did that famous conceding early v Hendry. And counting the dots on a spoon, or with his towel over his head another time.

    Ronnie never gets pulled up on such contradictions because he has played the ‘mental health’ card.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    And left marks in his head with his finger nails playing Ebdon.


    He was a shambles before he worked with Peters.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Not sure if you watched the discussion, but they were quite specifically talking about players performing on big stages in front of packed houses. Ronnie may have been stalked by many demons over his career, but that was never one of them. Murphy asked him what advice he would offer Zhou and he said none because it's basically something that is innate and can't be coached. Now, maybe that's debatable but I'd say there's something in that and i could list a number of talented players who underachieved because they could never do themselves justice in finals or one table set ups.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Players definitely struggle with it. Ronnie did too for a while, especially at the crucible. Then he worked with Steve Peters to get over it.


    This idea that it can’t be coached is nonsense. Lots of players never get coaching and that’s why they underachieve.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Anything can be coached including dealing with pressure

    Player's also adapt to playing under pressure trump for example

    The idea that Ronnie would be an also ran without coaching is untrue

    Post edited by kirk. on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭Sweet Talkin Romeo


    😁

    "never seen it happen in a match" said Dominic

    pretty sure i've seen that sorta shot (bounces up onto rail, slides up, and into a pocket) quite a few times, back in the day - late 80s/early 90s, perhaps



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,465 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    Alex did it against Jimmy in the UK back in the 80s.

    You'd try to do it yourself, rattling the jaws with huge pace, but have to watch you'd not get banned from the club after too many attempts.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭Sweet Talkin Romeo


    wouldn't concern me Arthur- never play it 😁

    WD Mark!!

    just think how good he'd be if he wasn't on comms/punditing and playing with the crowd/fans (fair play to him for that!)



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    O'Sullivan was talking about champions - davis, Hendry, Higgins, tiger woods etc, who all had that ready made and arguably, innate, will and know how to win. And that's not something you get from any coaching manual. You can of course pick holes in his own mentality but then I'd argue those defects were manifestly due to multiple external factors and never to the occasion or opponent with the exception of Ebdon who he let torture him for one reason or another. Ronnie was just 18 when he rocked up in his first major final and battered hendry. Hard to imagine anything even remotely comparable happening in the near future. I hear people talk about Kyren Wilson as a future world champion, yet just 2 years ago Kyren turned up in a final against ronnie and was pretty much beaten before a ball was even struck. Judd I always thought had it from the off, just his flaws were of a different nature.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Ronnie won the UK at 18 and then consistently underachieved until he started working with Reardon and Peters. He’s a prime example of how “talent” can be nurtured by getting the right coaching. It’s beyond ridiculous that someone who worked so hard on his flaws comes out with a “you either have it or you don’t” line.


    Tiger Woods, Ronnie, Federer, Schumacher etc. DID NOT win because they were the most talented or have a winning mentality that’s a complete myth. They won because they put in the work on their flaws. Hard work and a willingness to do the right thing is a talent in itself I suppose




    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Talent plays a huge part. Youre 90% of the way there with it. I dont buy this work hard achieve anything mentality. Some people are just more gifted at certain things.

    Also the top guys you mentioned there, and throw in any of the top sports people really - they can all be a bit of a cnut when it suits them.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Talent is the difference between Messi and Fillipo Inzaghi - hard work is the difference between Inzaghi and me.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    So you reckon if you trained more you could've played for AC Milan and won the Champions League? And if you were Italian you could have won the World Cup?!

    Or if you played ore snooker you could make the tour? I played hours of snooker every day for about 5 years during school/college. Didnt get a call from Barry Hearn....



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    That is basically Malcolm Gladwells assertion, isn't it, the so called 10,000 hours rule. Supposedly, 10,000 practice hours is the magic number for pretty much any average Joe to achieve proficiency in any activity. There was actually an Irish guy who took up golf to prove this a number of years back, regular columns in newspapers about him, but trail seemed to go cold after a while. I honestly believe I'd have been at least my own club champion if there was anything at all in it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    You'll find your level with hard work

    Talent is the prerequisite for the highest level



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    I certainly would never seek to downplay the input of Steve Peter's, clearly it has been critical, and I'd say probably close to half the tour have or are engaging with a sports psychologist which is a very encouraging development, but when a guy rocks up at a world championship having barely lifted a cue in the past year and saunters to the title without losing a single session, I'm happy enough to ascribe the majority of that to pure talent.

    But i feel this is all a tangent from what O'Sullivan was trying to say anyway. He was talking about pressure but a specific type of pressure. There are many and varied kinds and he suffered from quite a few of them, but performing in front of packed houses on the biggest stage wasn't one of them. As he said, his first appearance on tv, a packed house for the Cockney Classic on itv. He was 14, rattled in a 75 in his very first frame, looking like he owned the place. Not everyone has that in their make up.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?



    I am saying that if I had worked as hard as him and had the same coaching, the yes. But not for Italy.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Yeah its a load of bollocks. Proficiency is different to expertise.

    Hendry hadnt done anywhere near his 10000 hours when he won his first trophy. And theres loads of players who have played more than 10000 hours and have never made a 50 break.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Gladwell actually seems a nice guy and I've read a couple of his books which can be readable and entertaining. But i believe he has a tendency to take a position and then proceed to compile examples to fit his conclusions. He can make valid points but I wouldn't say he's always scientifically rigorous, and that 10,000 hours thing is a prime exhibit. There's a book called The Sports Gene by David Epstein which deals with the whole nature v nurture question that is very good and does a job in debunking Gladwell. Truth is it's a very complex subject, way beyond Gladwells attempted simplifications.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Playing for 10,000 and training for 10,000 hours is completely different. this is the point I am trying to make! Playing a few frames at the club isn’t practice or training. Actively working on the mental and technical sides of the game are.


    Selby is a prime example of hard work and proper training. Ronnie won more because he’s more talented, but he worked just as hard

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Of course it helps but does not mean that if you really try hard you can play for AC Milan!



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Regarding soccer, some of us grew up in an era when lots of great players came from this country. Brady, O'Leary, McGrath etc. Before that Giles, Shay Brennan, Liam Whelan. Those guys would say they learned the game in the unstructured environment of street football, just basically kicking a ball morning, noon and night. There are dozens of qualified coaches, academies, centres of excellence nowadays and yet i can't see we produce players of that quality anymore. Not since duff or keane anyway, I think. Just seems curious to me.

    With snooker, i can see that playing numbers have taken a huge five, club numbers have shrivelled so it's almost inevitable we'd be seeing less talented prospects. With soccer, I can't see a comparable explanation, though.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    I never said that. I said if I had trained in the right way: worked hard with the right coaching.


    The importance of talent is way overrated.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,835 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    But AC Milan have hundreds of kids on the books, all training the same amount with the same coaches etc. How come only 1 or 2 will make it?

    The importance of talent is way underrated.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,824 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    I thought I was in the soccer thread - I was chalked and ready to go. I thought I got a kick and was transported to the wrong thread. Then thought I better find some way to blame the Qatari’s.

    But as the man says ‘I ain’t really bovvered mate, it’s just a hobby really, you know’

    On the snooker talent issue the four I think of that revamped their game/mind to get the best of their talent in no particular order.

    1) Dennis Taylor / got the specs - plus his mother died and it gave him a different focus

    2) Peter Ebon - went from the fast swashbuckling ponytailed potter - to a methodical slow style - with a cueball head on him

    3) Mark Williams / was going to retire when he tried sight right - revamped his technique - it clicked for him straight away

    4) Ronnie O’Sullivan - was once the great underachieving player in snooker -obviously ‘personal issues’ then Reardon - Peters- helped him at various stages. Plus Ronnie completely revamped his cue action.

    Post edited by gormdubhgorm on

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,824 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Big turning point frame there Trump gone 3-2 ahead. Murphy broke down at 47. Excellent cueing and some outrageous shots from Trump under pressure.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Underrated? People yammer on about to constantly. It’s actually insulting to people who work incredibly hard to blame their success on talent.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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