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General British politics discussion thread

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    #7472
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119888898#Comment_119888898

    Here you go :

    https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/education/2021/02/11/lessons-from-history-france-s-wealth-tax-did-more-harm-than-good/


    The super tax on wealth, before it was abolished, raised 2% of revenue. Where should the remainder come from?

    When you say tax more, you do realise that you are only hurting ordinary people, even targeting their pension funds and the property they own.



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    #7473
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889475#Comment_119889475

    Paywalled.

    No sources for the rest of your claims? The idea that taxing yachts and mansions hurts working class people is beyond daft.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #7474
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889551#Comment_119889551

    If the rich don't stump up the taxes, as shown by the French experience, who will? Is there another group of people between ordinary and wealthy I am unaware of?

    I'd have thought it was quite simple logic.

    If the wealth taxes are not sufficient, the burden falls on the ordinary middle class and poor.

    That's why public spending needs to be reined in and black holes like the NHS needs serious reform so it provides value for money.



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    #7475
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889593#Comment_119889593

    So nothing then. Same as ever.

    Various sorts of wealth can be taxed. The mistake is taxing money in an account which can be moved. Taxing mansions, yachts, owned land and so on makes much more sense. The energy companies are profiteering from the war in Ukraine. Where are they going to go, exactly?

    Neoliberal soundbytes are not an argument. This is the ideology which caused the financial crash. We know its poison. Snarky comments do not change this.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #7476
    Slideways
    Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭Slideways


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889601#Comment_119889601

    I’ve got to say, I’m mostly a reader of this forum, rarely comment as I Don’t feel what I have to offer would meet the high standards required here.


    I agree with most of what you post but the aggressive way you deal with anyone who differs from you is frankly absurd. If you talked to people like that in person it wouldn’t be long before you woke up with a crowd around you. Some simple manners cost nothing.



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    #7477
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119889624#Comment_119889624

    I'm just a bit tired of the same soundbytes getting trotted out again and again by this poster. Fair enough about my manner but it gets a bit frustrating when the answer to every scenario is to screw over working people in favour of billionaires who often don't contribute at all.

    It's why I ask for sources. Austerity in the UK is linked to over a hundred thousand deaths and this user is calling for much more of it. People rely heavily on the NHS and we've the trope that it's mismanaged being wheeled out with not even a few sentences backing it up.

    Sure, I could maybe be politer but it's hard when engagement is never anything more than pithy phrases. I could be wrong. Maybe gutting the state is the answer. It would be nice to get a cogent argument at the very least though.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #7478
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 25,672 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119888863#Comment_119888863

    That was an absolute nutbag sht show of a budget from a PM who was too useless to last 2 months.

    You can't claim it's that same thing as every non austerity budget.



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    #7479
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,690 ✭✭✭serfboard


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119887950#Comment_119887950

    The agenda is pretty simple really.

    "The fact that you are worse off now, is not the fault of us oligarchs, plundering the country and making off like bandits to our tax havens - it's those people's fault!". (Those people previously being EU immigrants, now switching to asylum seekers).

    And there are two sad facts about this. One is that people believe it, and the other, that people like Pritti Patel and Suella Braverman, whose families benefited from previous immigration policies, are so keen to ruthlessly pull up the ladder behind them - "Me and my family are here and we're fine - but you can fúck off".

    And then you have the consequences of this immigration policy on a poor crathur like Tim Martin - who has had to close some of his pubs because he can't get enough staff. I wonder has it dawned on him yet that this is precisely the situation that he donated money to bring about?



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    #7480
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,486 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119891088#Comment_119891088

    Yes, you make a good point. The right wing press can hardly thrive going forward in a situation where they themselves and their Tory pals are being blamed for the country going to hell. The only solution is to try and create a massive diversion and claim that foreigners arriving in dinghies on the English south coast are somehow the reason that your lives are so miserable and that you haven't tuppence in your wallet.



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    #7481
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,227 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Maggie had North Sea Oil,Corporation tax at 35% and all that lovely national infrastructure to sell off. The UK still exports fossil fuels,but imports just as much so neutral. All the infrastructure was sold off so no silverware to raid. The UK is closing the stable door by increasing taxes on the energy companies after the spike


    She also made sure the power stations had 18 months of coal stockpiled before starting the fight with the unions. Gas came on line so the miners union was consigned to history and plans for new nuclear plants were abandoned.

    The 30TWh Rough Gas Storage facility was closed in 2017 to save just £75m a year, wind has replaced gas and there aren't any unions to break up. If you are going to channel dead leaders, make sure the circumstances or actions are similar.

    Hornsea-3 windfarm will be up and running before Hinkley-C for a 1/3 of the cost per MWh. But the autumn statement says they are going ahead with Sizewell-C which will cost at least £70bn and will be late. ( I haven't looked up the details but am assuming it will be £30Bn cheaper than Hinkley-C , stopping HS2 would likely save most of the £100Bn it will eventually cost, poor people don't use trains in the UK ) Hornsea-1 and possibly 2 will likely have ended their 15 year CfD pricing before Sizwell-C comes online. It will then be competing with wind with a capacity factor of 47% at market prices. Hornsea is off the coast from Teeside where they have the infrastructure and already use 15 TWh of hydrogen a year.

    You play the cards you have, not the ones you wished you had. Not the ones someone else had.



    The UK could do with culling HS2 or Nuclear power to balance the books. Trident is another £100Bn project. It's purpose is to destroy 75% of Moscow. Maybe they should offer Putin £25Bn to take early retirement after cutting back on Russia's nukes?

    https://obr.uk/ - this is stark.

    Over £100 billion of additional fiscal support over the next two years cushions the blow of higher energy prices – but the economy still falls into recession and living standards fall 7 per cent over two years, wiping out eight years’ growth. Over the medium term, around £40 billion in tax rises and spending cuts – in roughly equal measure – offsets higher debt interest and welfare costs and gets debt falling as a share of GDP. But at 99 per cent of GDP at the forecast horizon, debt is roughly £400 billion higher than forecast in March and interest costs close to historic highs



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    #7482
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 25,672 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Starmer promising to abolish House of Lords.

    Bold statement with the finish line so close after all these years. Would have thought it to be more of a second term pledge.

    Fair fks to him.



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    #7483
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119896008#Comment_119896008

    Would the HoL get to debate the bill that would abolish them?



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    #7484
    PommieBast
    Registered Users Posts: 2,716 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119896008#Comment_119896008

    A close relative of mine is in the HoL so I'll ask them for any inside gossip on this, but I really don't see it happening even in a 2nd term.



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    #7485
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Oof, the Client Journalist reaction should be interesting, if predictable. As will all the little Englanders out there.



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    #7486
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,372 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119896008#Comment_119896008

    What's the point of promising to abolishing the upper house? Is it just a vote-getter? Would it not lead to less scrutiny of legislation, something the Tories seem rather fond of?

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #7487
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 25,672 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119896310#Comment_119896310

    He says it would be replaced by an elected house so it would be more scrutiny than the current bunch of jobs for the boys lords.

    Its not a vote getter as it will mostly only appeal to Labour voters. That's why I'm surprised as this will be a nice distraction for the Tory media. The Lords will be the new blue passports, spitfires, inches and bulldogs cause to champion.



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    #7488
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,372 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    So not just throwing it out but replacing it with something else - thanks, that makes more sense.

    But yes, it will be a hard sell given how attached people can be to old established institutions, even if said institutions are of no particular benefit to them.

    Post edited by Hermy on

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #7489
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,298 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Blair promised the same thing and never did it.

    It really is 1997 all over again.

    Starmer doesn't mind knighthoods I presume.



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    #7490
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119896386#Comment_119896386

    It'll play well with demographics and locations most disenfranchised with the myth of English democratic institutions.

    Mind you, how often has our own governments proposed senate reform and it never happened? Even if the HoL reads leagues more rotten and archaic.



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    #7491
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,645 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The question on abolishing the HoL is what replaces it?

    a) Nothing - that puts too much power into the HoC.

    b) A Senate like structure with elected senators, probably based on the existing dozen or so regions with a STV voting system. Perhaps with fixed terms, like the USA Senate. That would work, if they copied the USA with six year terms, with a third up for election every two years. How many Senators? USA have just one hundred - would the UK need more?

    c) A fixed number of Lords (called something else) picked by the HoC or HoL from existing members of the HoL. Sounds like a sop to the HoL.

    I would think option b) is the one I would go for, with 12 members from each region.



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    #7492
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119896603#Comment_119896603

    The House of Lords has impeded a series of abysmal government agendas. It has its virtues but I do think it needs to be replaced with a Senate or something similar. The last thing I want to see is a US-style Senate. That's been an unmitigated disaster over there and it's the last thing we need.

    There are a few ideas. It definitely needs to either be elected in a wholly different manner to the House of Commons though not with PR-STV as that's how the Commons should be elected or unelected. If unelected, different bodies representing industry, science, the arts, culture, religious groups and so on could nominate appointees who could be approved in the House of Commons. The public could have the ability to remove anyone with a recall petition of 100,000 signatures. Alternatively, the public could vote for candidates proposed by these bodies at regular elections.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119896464#Comment_119896464

    For what it is, the House of Lords works quite well. The problem is the democratic deficit and I do support abolition and replacing it with either an elected upper house or something similar to what it is now with more checks and balances.

    In 2010, all three main parties were for reform but it just fizzled out. I think the climate now is wholly different. The monarchy remains popular but its support is ebbing. That's the monarchy. The Lords has much less of a base on which to stand. The main issue with abolishing it is a bit like the BBC - you need something to replace it.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #7493
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 25,672 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Starmer's plan is for an elected house with practically the same powers as now.



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    #7494
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119896829#Comment_119896829

    Has he offered any detail on how it is to be elected?

    Honestly, I both agree and disagree with Ian Dunt on this:

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1594093311739904000

    If I could change one thing right now, it'd be PR-STV for the House of Commons. I'd also prefer to abolish the monarchy over the lords.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #7495
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,645 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Well, the HoL must be abolished ahead of the Monarchy, just because.

    King Charles could go a long way to removing all the grace and favour stuff, and reduce the Civil List to very little, both in beneficiaries, and amount they get. He could also hand over much of the riches of the Crown and personal stuff to the State. I think that would be popular.

    If the HoL was elected, and had much of the current powers of legislation revue, plus oversight of the HoC, then I would see that as a huge improvement. Fixed term tenure would be good, and overlapping tenures would allow continuity.

    Blair did move the Law Lords into the Supreme Court, so that was step one.



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    #7496
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 25,672 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119896875#Comment_119896875
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/19/keir-starmer-i-will-abolish-house-of-lords-to-restore-trust-in-politics

    On the powers of the House he just says it shouldn't replace any functions of the Commons. So I assume that means no US style senate.

    Ide be very anti monarchy and FPtP as well but this is probably the only currently achievable one.



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    #7497
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,564 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Watch his face, this is pretty epic.

    https://twitter.com/jemmaforte/status/1594271852934959105




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    #7498
    Tom Mann Centuria
    Registered Users Posts: 10,986 ✭✭✭✭Tom Mann Centuria


    Firstly, I would like the Tories to lose the next election and never gain power again.

    Secondly Starmer, Reeves and Streeting don't appear to me to be much, if at all better, but it's the party you vote for and hope their influence is short lived.

    Their selection process for new MPs is also crap. Ian Byrne, voted MP of the year barely survived a clearly factional trigger ballot and there have been others in recent months too. Here's Michael Crick's (certainly no friend of the left) take on the process. If you're anointed from 'on high' you get the advantages others don't.

    https://twitter.com/tomorrowsmps/status/1594288084786597888?t=REx8mIQQxBj5S8X9_cHHnw&s=19


    Post edited by Tom Mann Centuria on

    Oh well, give me an easy life and a peaceful death.



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    #7499
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119900885#Comment_119900885

    It's no less corrupt than it was before. The Corbynistas were more than happy to have anyone in the centre removed when it suited them.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #7500
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 25,672 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119901006#Comment_119901006

    Its also better than the old system of being unable to to block a sitting MP which leads to the likes of Kate Hoey who seemed to be generally hated in her own constituency.



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    #7501
    Tom Mann Centuria
    Registered Users Posts: 10,986 ✭✭✭✭Tom Mann Centuria


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119901006#Comment_119901006

    I wasn't really making the left/right point as Crick pointed out in that twitter thread. Andy Burnham and Angela Raynor supported Ian Byrne by the way. I consider both of those party loyal rather than left, right or centre. Factionalism isn't always left and right (as Blair and Brown so ably showed us)


    On the point you raised I'm sure there were examples of sitting centrist MPs being deselected or faced trigger ballots I just genuinely can't think of one. Or centrist MPs removed? Can't think of any of those either.

    Oh well, give me an easy life and a peaceful death.



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