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Little changes we can make to normalise cycling and encourage its uptake

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,397 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    you know that removing the bollards would essentially remove the cycle lanes though. you're talking about removing cycle lanes based on a theoretical possibility which you haven't provided a known example of in this country yet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Can we post lots of photos of cars on footpaths to appreciate that irony?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,993 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I can't find a recent photo or video showing what they've done in Barrow, UK.

    But it seems they replaced parking with cycle lanes.

    https://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/19613981.parking-spaces-two-barrow-roads-near-bae-removed-make-way-cycle-lanes/



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,993 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    The examples given mostly don't have bollards.

    You'd have to ask why hard bollards were installed on only key points on those routes. Maybe it just a poor design chocies, or there was another reason like parking causing congestion.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,560 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    But examples I have driven on personally are parts of Main Road, Tallaght Village, and also Wellington Lane (photo below). And for added irony, where is the cyclist in this photo?

    There looks to be room on either side of the Ford pick-up (which is a wide vehicle). I don't see why you think "traffic barely has room to pass each other, and is left with no room to pull into the side"

    Also, are you expecting me to defend the person on the bike or what? If you need a little gotcha moment, well done, your ma must be so proud of you! I'm sure if I bothered looking, I'd find plenty of cars up on footpaths too but I'd rather go and have lunch!

    I'd love to see an ambulance trying to get through Wellington Lane at morning or evening rush hour. Actually, I take that back, no I wouldn't. Because someone might die.

    There are two lanes there, both of which are still fairly wide - why would an ambulance not be able to get through?



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You can see how little room there is in that photo for cars to pass each other.

    At least though there is a gap in the bollards for the left turn.

    In some areas the bollards are so continous you are almost on top of the left turn you need to take which makes cycling more dangerous than it need be as the driver is concentrating on looking for the gap between the bollards to move left.

    I really think the people designing these cycle lanes never actually cycle themselves at all, it seems to be a case of sticking them in to get the likes of the men posting here off their backs, I have a certain amount of sympathy for the officials but when you make the roads more dangerous for cyclists and motorists and experienced cyclists wont even use the lanes provided,well, what is the point.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,397 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    aren't many of those wands designed to be driven over if necessary anyway? i wonder if there's a protocol in place for emergency services to do so if the need arises.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    These are the two roads mentioned in the article. Have a look and please explain how there's not room for a cycle lane there.






  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Some are easy to lift up, some residents who cant drive into their driveways because of them are just removing them themselves.

    The point is two way cycle lanes should not be installed if it means leaving no room for drivers to pull over to allow Gardai and emergency services to pass.

    Many of the roads the cycle lanes are bollards are installed on were perfectly safe for cycling, I have cycled for many years happily sharing road space with cars and personally I hate these cycling lanes. Hate having people cycle towards me at full speed, hate having them speeding up behind me in the confined space, absolutely hate being hemmed by by groups of lycra wearing males, dont like having to wait for children on trikes and scooters to let me pass.

    The cycle lanes are actually putting me off cycling, thats the truth of it.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,397 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    those roads - as in the two street view images - are bizarrely wide.

    also worth mentioning that the journalist in question talked to 'dozens' of residents, but doesn't state whether she contacted the ambulance service in question for their view. usual 'your job is to put your hand out the window to see if it's raining'.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    What cycle lane bollards have stopped residents driving into their driveways please?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,397 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i would also much prefer if the bollards weren't necessary. but without any policing of motorists parking in or using cycle lanes, they're a necessary evil in many cases. and yes, some might be badly designed but they'll probably be addressed.

    e.g. look at griffith avenue. many people around the area were outraged when the bollards went in, but many were probably the same people who parked over the cycle lanes when all there were was paint. i'd love if griffith avenue could get away with just paint to demarcate the cycle lanes, but that simply doesn't work as it's not policed and people know they can park with impunity.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If you live on a busy road you have to wait until there is no traffic approaching from either direction before you can reverse into your driveway.

    If you have to watch out for drivers, cyclists and pedestrians walking behind you and the space you have to access your driveway is impeded by cycle lane bollards then you would be tempted to remove them.

    Do you ever try to see anything from others point of view.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,993 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I think those photos are before the cycle lanes. No idea what it looks like now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,993 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    They also used an old Photo which shows nothing. Probably because they couldn't find any online to cut and past.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You asked for an example, I gave you one.

    Now you're trying to pick holes with the example given despite clearly having no knowledge of the route or what its like at busy times of the day. The bollarded section goes on for approx 2km and the photo angle makes it look a lot wider than it actually is. There is no room for anyone to squeeze by anything.

    Accidents and emergencies don't just happen after rush hour is ended. If an ambulance needed to get through at rush hour, or god forbid, a fire brigade, it would be a total clusterfcuk. Its just by the grace of god that it hasn't happened yet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭Unrealistic


    You've spent much of this thread advocating that people who aren't comfortable cycling in a hostile environment would be better off not cycling on the roads at all. By the same logic would a driver who is not comfortable reversing into a driveway, without illegally removing safety equipment designed to protect vulnerable road users, also be better off not driving on the roads at all?

    Any standard bollard installation is still going to leave a whole lot more room than you would have reversing into space in a multi-storey car park. It's a pretty basic driving skill.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    you haven't provided a known example of in this country yet.

    Seriously?

    Your fellow cyclists regularly post links to all kinds of articles from all over the world with not a peep out of you - but when I give you an example from the UK, this is your reply?

    That's just weak.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,993 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    In fairness you haven't provide a UK example that easily checked either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,993 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    Its an example of each local authority just doing their own thing.

    The majority of it is pretty wide in fairness. If they replaced it will flappy bollards further apart and only where need it would solve it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭Unrealistic


    @Robot22 The point is two way cycle lanes should not be installed if it means leaving no room for drivers to pull over to allow Gardai and emergency services to pass.

    Do you apply that logic to all road allocation or only to cycle lanes?

    Would you, for example, advocate for on street parking to be removed from one side of this street as that would be necessary to leave "room for drivers to pull over to allow Gardai and emergency services to pass."


    What about this street? Ban all traffic from it except emergency vehicles because there is no "room for drivers to pull over to allow Gardai and emergency services to pass?"


    Although, on second thoughts, you'd only need ban cars and larger vehicles. Those on motorbikes and bicycles would still have enough space to pull aside and let an ambulance past.

    Or maybe, as your focus was on two way cycle lanes, we should just take on an example which has been proven to work over decades of real life experience. The Dutch, and other countries, design cycle lanes so that the emergency services can use them to reach emergencies more quickly than they would be able to by road. Done properly, cycle lanes lead to quicker response times, not slower ones.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    You have to watch out for other road users with or without bollards. What difference do the bollards make?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,560 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    You asked for an example, I gave you one.

    You did. Your example pictured a large vehicle driving along with space on either side of it. I see nothing that would supports your claim that "traffic barely has room to pass each other, and is left with no room to pull into the side"

    The bollarded section goes on for approx 2km and the photo angle makes it look a lot wider than it actually is. There is no room for anyone to squeeze by anything.

    So Google's Streetview is wrong because it has distorted the view of the road? So have you an example of where Streetview isn't broken?

    Accidents and emergencies don't just happen after rush hour is ended. If an ambulance needed to get through at rush hour, or god forbid, a fire brigade, it would be a total clusterfcuk. Its just by the grace of god that it hasn't happened yet.

    Would the ambulance or fire brigade be stuck because of a few plastic wands on the road or because we have far more people driving around doing short local trips that could easily be made on foot or bike? Nah, you're right - its the inanimate object at the side of the road, not the roads filled with fatter cars driven by people who couldn't be arsed walking.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,560 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Read that back to yourself (preferably out loud) and then think about what you're just read. Does anything occur to you?



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,689 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Unfortunately, they are needed because neither Irish drivers, cyclists or pedestrians obey simple rules. The reason so many of these threads descend into rows is that bad behaviour on the road is endemic among all users.

    Reference is made to Amsterdam but the biggest surprise to me when there were cyclists who actually stopped at traffic lights to allow pedestrians cross, and the one time I tried to cross a road in the wrong place, I got blasted out of it by cyclists and motorists alike.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,397 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    any examples? when asked to prove something, and a fellow cyclist comes up with a single example from a different jurisidiction, i would take that as as much evidence as i took your example.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,397 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    anyway, it seems quite simple. what everyone arguing with the 'cyclist lobby' here seems to hate is not cyclists, but bad parking. for many of the things being complained about (wands, access for emergency services etc.), bad and illegal parking is the culprit. i'm sure they're on the motoring forum giving out about bad parking as passionately as they do in threads about cycling. lobbying their TDs and councillors, etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,689 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    This isn't the cycling or the motoring forum, it's the commuting and transport forum, so why would they be over on the motoring forum giving out about bad parking and driving when they are not over on the cycling forum giving out about cyclists.

    Bad behaviour is endemic to Irish road users. That applies to pedestrians, cyclists and motorists. Glorifying or criticising the behaviour of one group over the other ignores the overall cultural issue that applies to all.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,397 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    that was intended as somewhat tongue in cheek, but was trying to make a serious point that many of the pro-cycling measures have been taken to protect cyclists from poor driving and lack of enforcement of road traffic law. and many motorists regard them as anti-motorist.

    regarding your 'all road users are badly behaved', taking that at face value, it's almost trite to the point of patronising to point out that badly behaved pedestrians aren't within an asses roar of being the same problem as badly behaved drivers.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,387 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    Only one mode, and group actually putting others in real danger though. Cyclists breaking lights rarely actually injure people in the real world. Pedestrians jay walking rarely injury people in the real world. Motorists on the other hand...

    just fwiw the majority of my travel is by car, including my commute. I park and cycle, as despite the lack of infrastructure and driver behaviour, it's still preferable to sitting being traffic for longer than it takes by bike.



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