What Happened To Bottles?

squonk · 18-11-2022 9:37pm #1

I notice a lot of breweries here have switched over to cans recently. I do guess they’re easier manage than bottles, Easier transport, stack and probably more sturdy and convenient overall.

The thing is thought that the cans are now smaller than the original bottles. I bought a few stouts recently in cans, like The trouble brewing one which comes in a 440ml can. Worse still though is Galway Bay now shipping cans but they’re 330ml. Not going to lie, I like a pint and these smaller cans don’t really cut the mustard. Particularly for buried at sea which is a favourite. I’m now dreaming of the days I could buy this in 500ml bottle. I think now I didn’t know I had it so good. SuperValu seem to still have some bottles but they may be old stock. GBB are particularly annoying as they only want to sell you slabs of cans now via the website and I don’t think It’s a great move on their part.

So what’s behind this can business? Is it minimum alcohol pricing or higher production costs or price gouging or a combination of all three in some cases?

ballyargus · 18-11-2022 10:01pm

I think most of us like our pints. I'm no fan of the shortarsed cans either, 440ml or 330ml - they're just wrong

L1011 · 18-11-2022 10:32pm

Cans are cheaper and actually more environmentally friendly unless you have the systems for bottle return. Works well in Germany etc where they have dominant regional breweries but its not practical for a small indie/craft.

If you want bottles or specifically want 500s Galway Bay still do bottles as well as can, as do Kinnegar albeit they have a lot more in can. Rye River have a solid bottle range, some stuff is not easily/ever found in can but also some cans are not bottled.

squonk · 18-11-2022 10:37pm

Cheers. Yeah I thusly get the enrolments benefits and I’d gladly buy bottles over cans if given the opportunity but for sobering like buried at sea, it send to be going can only as the bottles are much harder to find. I have no issue with cabs but I’d prefer a 500ml can replacing a 500ml bottle rather than what is actually happening where 500ml bothered are being replaced by 440ml a or, even worse, 330ml cans.

18-11-2022 10:41pm

I’ve stopped buying the vast majority of craft beers because I’m not prepared to pay the prices being charged for a 440ml can.

I’m all for supporting local and trying new beer, but it’s a discretionary spend, and I now find myself either picking up 8 cans of Beamish or 6 bottles of something like O’Hara’s or Galway Hooker.

walterking · 18-11-2022 10:44pm

Much cheaper for smaller breweries. There's also a company that provides mobile canning service and use a full can label rather than a printed can. (Bevcraft in Mullingar)

The weight of glass and the fact it has to travel from the UK or Europe is also a factor.

Ardagh have a large beverage can manufacturing plant in northern Ireland, so local supply available of cans.

squonk · 18-11-2022 10:47pm

Dead on Dr Phibes. I’ve found myself also lining through the selection in places like SuperValu and passing up the tiny cans because a. I’m not going to enjoy them as much as a 500ml bottle and b. They cost nearly as much anyway. Like you I’m all for supporting local breweries but it strikes me as price gouging. They’re cutting their costs by using cans but also shrinking in volume at the same time. I think stuff like this will kill the craft beer at home scene long term.

i don’t drink much or often these days but still like my craft beer but I order direct from those breweries doing beer I like in 500ml volumes and that’s fine but I do have some favourites that have gone down the short can route. It’s kind of sad really. I’m just not going to justify that purchase really.

L1011 · 18-11-2022 10:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119892198#Comment_119892198

Bevcraft/ICC are probably the reason so many went from manually filled, manually capped bottles over to cans.

Also, I believe there was a very influential rep for one of the can supply firms (an Ardagh rival, whos name escapes me) who arranged buying in second hand lines from breweries in the US that had expanded to reduce capex costs for those going on site. This is a vague memory from reading an obit for said rep in some publication, though.

the beer revolu · 19-11-2022 11:27am

I'm just glad there wasn't the Internet when 500ml cans a bottles becane the standard. Imaging all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over being "done out of" 68ml, compared to a pint measure.

But funny how 500ml is completely acceptable now.

I suspect that there are people who without ever checking the price per ml or comparative abv, refuse to buy 440ml can just because they are "smaller"!

Also, would a 660ml can be much more favoured than a 500ml can. If not, why not?

I really can't get my head around what's so special about 500ml over any other serving size.

I completely understand any one deciding that 440ml of a given beer is too expensive for them to buy. We all have price considerations. But the price of the beer is the price of the beer. It's not that price because of the serving size! Beer comes at many price points.

I genuinely don't understand the issue.

Can someone show me a 440ml selling for the same price as a 500ml of the same beer in the same shop? If someone can show me this, I'll shut up.

squonk · 19-11-2022 1:35pm

It’s not the can size, I’d take a 568ml can if I got it but 500ml is an ok compromise. It still mostly fills a pint glass. 440ml doesn’t and 330ml absolutely doesn’t.

To be fair I do see that the live isn’t increasing too much with the cans. I had a look at one of the GBB beers on an offie site and a 330ml max is €2.50 which breaks it at about €3.80 for 500ml which is maybe s snag price increase but these days what hasn’t gone up!

really it cubes down to convenience. I’d rather open a bottle watching a movie and get a pint glass out of it than having to open 2 cans. It’s just down to preference I suppose.

the beer revolu · 19-11-2022 2:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119893555#Comment_119893555

Ah, it's the pint glass thing! I know other people who refuse to drink any beer out of anything other than a pint glass! I really don't understand that either. You really wouldn't consider a different glass if drinking a 330ml bottle or can?

I'm the opposite. I'll drink my beer out of almost any kind of glass apart from a pint glass. I hate them. I don't find that they add anything to any beer. Granted a pint of nitro stout looks nice but I'd still rather a half!

irish_goat · 19-11-2022 5:06pm

One thing is that you can fit twice as much beer on a pallet of cans as you can a pallet of bottles. That makes a big difference even when transporting across Ireland and only multiplies if you are exporting.

BeerNut · 19-11-2022 5:11pm

There's something similar at work in my beer fridge.

squonk · 19-11-2022 6:54pm

Agreed. They’re very convenient for transit and storage but it’s still the case that as the volume goes down, the price per ml goes up. It’s just not a good development

AAAAAAAAA · 19-11-2022 7:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119893184#Comment_119893184

500ml cans kind of make sense though from a metric perspective though, that's the main size used in Europe. You could excuse it a bit on that ground, but the 440ml ones are just such an obvious shrinkflation measure.

Thelonious Monk · 19-11-2022 8:42pm

You can buy pint cans of some stuff here in London. I get pint cans of Stella sometimes.

I always thought the 440ml was a British oddity so why they started using them for Irish craft beers is just unacceptable to me! I am not going to pay 3.50 for a 440ml of some Irish craft beer, it's a total rip off.

I'm not the only person I know that feels this way, there's a market there for 500ml Irish craft beer cans that many of us would appreciate.

squonk · 19-11-2022 9:26pm

Yeah it looks like a US pint I’d 471ml so I can see those 440ml cans being their equivalent of our 500ml cans really which are a bit under the official point measurement. It was mentioned in an earlier post that US lines are being used here now so maybe they’re set up for 440ml cans? It or much sucks though as we are losing quite a bit in the transition but paying nearly the samd price. Personally I’m voting with my pocket but they must be seeing enough of the dinky cans seeing as they keep changing them out.

i know it suits she prone but you really can’t get into a beer properly just driving 330ml at a go. Fair enough if it’s a heavy hitting high alcohol beer. That’s different but dinky cans just ruins the experience for me.

DelmarODonnell · 20-11-2022 12:04pm

Easy solution, just open two 330mls for your pint glass. Can top up the pint glass at around the 3/4 mark and you've a full pint glass again.

I really can't see the good argument for going for cans of Beamish instead of craft beer purely out of convenience for the amount of liquid contained in the can. I enjoy a pint of Beamish out and about if there is no selection of independent Irish beer on tap. However with Heineken's price increases for publicans and past history of strong arming them for tap space etc, I will be avoiding in future.

squonk · 20-11-2022 1:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119896834#Comment_119896834

Sorry but that’s also the expensive solution. At say €2.50 for a can you’d be talking €5 for just over the pint. That’s steep for enjoying a tipple at home and topping up isn’t ideal either.

the beer revolu · 20-11-2022 3:10pm

You are all a very strange bunch, indeed😉

DelmarODonnell · 22-11-2022 2:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119897273#Comment_119897273

€3.80 for 500ml as you said yourself, when €2.50 cans are taken into consideration! if it's bottles of stout you are looking for, O'Haras is usually 2.50-3 euro.

loyatemu · 22-11-2022 4:00pm

TBH if I'm sitting at home drinking a 6.5% IPA I'm not too worried about the extra 60ml, I'm certainly not going to go "balls to this, I'm getting a proper sized can of Bud". If you want to get drunk there are much cheaper options than craft beer. Lidl & Aldi's craft offerings are all still 500ml bottles and are cheaper to start with, so there's a decent alternative.

Having said that, I don't know why 440ml has become the standard rather than 500.

neris · 22-11-2022 4:05pm

The small brewers went with the 440ml cans so they could sell into the uk and something to do with taxes or duty being charged on them

BeerNut · 22-11-2022 5:48pm

They went with 440ml cans so they could look like Alchemist, Trillium and Tree House. It's a fashion that came in with hazy IPA and, like hazy IPA, hasn't gone away yet.

squonk · 22-11-2022 6:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119907506#Comment_119907506

To be fair I think once you go above 6% I’m happy with the smaller cans of that actually. Certainly in the 8+% cohort. I’d be gay enough with a smaller volume of that. It’s nite expensive anyway so par for the course. It’s just the lower alcohol beers I find annoying in smaller cans

Macy0161 · 23-11-2022 3:48pm

I actually thought they went that way as that was the canning lines available?

I personally don't mind 440ml, probably enough for me most of the time, and fits much better in the beer fridge (before you get into bottle/ can conditioned beers). Not a fan of 330's though - 1 not enough, 2 too much!

I would think any price differential has evened itself out over the last few years - people are comparing prices to 2, 3 or 4 years ago. Wicklow Wolf got stick for going from 3 500ml to 3 440ml for a tenner at the time they moved from Bray to Newtown, but the cans remained at that price point a long time to be fair to them - longer than I would've expected the bottles too anyway.

irish_goat · 23-11-2022 5:00pm

Most canning lines can be configured to take a different size can. A lot of Irish breweries have Wild Goose machines from Colorado where the standard would obviously not be 330/440ml.

Personally, I will rarely buy 330ml cans of session beer on a regular basis unless they work out good value. The 500ml bottles of Lidl Crafty or even bottles of Scraggy Bay will always work out better value for me than the 330ml cans ever do.

23-11-2022 10:35pm

I didn't mean to kick off a debate, but for some of us less serious beer drinkers there is a point where value for money comes into it. It's a bit like knowing a €12 bottle of wine from Dunnes is better plonk than a bottle of €9.99 Chateau CircleK, but being told that you are still wasting your money and should instead visit your local offie for a bottle that's probably a bit better for €19.

Like it's correct, but you reach a stage where the €12 stuff is grand enough. And I find that with craft beer. I'd prefer to buy a good red ale or stout in Supervalu or Lidl than go looking for something in an over-saturated display of 440ml cans in the local offie. If I do visit one of them, then I'm looking at the 500ml bottles - O'Hara's, Kinnegar, Galway Bay, Galway Hooker, Wicklow Wolf. If there's a deal on then even better.

The 440ml and 330 ml cans just aren't going to work for the middlebrows.

walterking · 23-11-2022 10:37pm

Rye River (McGargles) gave their financials yesterday and said they will be moving further into cans rather than bottles due to the rising costs of bottles and the associated costs in transporting them.

squonk · 24-11-2022 8:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119913586#Comment_119913586

Thanks! I think you’ve managed to really convey what I was getting at in my original post.

absolutely I won’t travel 20 miles to pick up an obscure IPA from somewhere but like more varied beer than the staples offer however I don’t drink a lot of it but want some element of value for money as well, even though I know I’m paying more for the craft stuff.

so yeah, essentially I’ve no issue with brewers cutting their production costs and using cans per se, just don’t go down the chocolate bar route and just give less for the same price or an even higher price while you’re at it.

I definitely think for some of them there’s a bit of smart alecary going on. They know they’re established and have a following so decide to up their prices along with dialling back tge quantity and people will accept it. I don’t think it’s acceptable. It’s not much different from Heineken’s price stunt st the end of the day, although your average craft place isn’t sponsoring everything under the sun like Heineken do. Same principle though.

magicbastarder · 24-11-2022 8:19am

They cost nearly as much anyway

just curious as to how big a price gap there is?

€2.50 for a 500ml bottle would scale to €2.20 for a 440ml can. which could be 'nearly as much'.

loyatemu · 24-11-2022 10:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119913595#Comment_119913595

for the end user as well - cans are easier to store and when you've drunk them you can feck them in the recycling bin. Bottles have to be dragged off to the bottle bank.

Hodors Appletart · 24-11-2022 11:31am

yeah I wish more of the German lager producers would get on board with tins tbh

L1011 · 24-11-2022 11:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915053#Comment_119915053

Germany has very solid takeback and reuse (as opposed to recycle - on the face of it hugely beneficial environmentally although there are more transport costs involved) so I'd doubt there'll be any change there. The export market is just a small portion of the total sales.

Diageo and C&C are both equipped for takeback/reuse of pint bottles but rarely sell these at retail to begin with, let alone have a retail method of return. I've sent some very heavily used, scuffed white along the haunches, bottles of Macardles to recycling after I've had them at home.

If Rye River did local takeback and reuse they'd get plenty back based on how quickly they sell out of bottles of the main range in my local Centra - but I don't think you'd invest in that for a few local towns!

Marcusm · 26-11-2022 8:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915069#Comment_119915069

Does anyone in the pub trade even do take back/reuse in Ireland anymore? When I was a teenager I worked in pubs and can remember sorting the bottles back into crates separating the Stag and Ritz ones as they had tinfoil in them. Speaking with Germans I see that it’s usual for a family to take crates home and bring back the empties swapping over. I much prefer a canned beer but I really don’t get why the in-trade is not pushed more in the reuse element.

L1011 · 26-11-2022 8:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119925789#Comment_119925789

I know Diageo do for pint bottles, I'm fairly sure C&C do for pint bottles also. I'd have to defer to someone actually working in the pub trade for others.

Coke definitely used to, C&C/Cooney for their small bottles also.

Gusser09 · 26-11-2022 8:39pm

330ml cans are excellent. I much prefer them to 330ml bottles. No bottle banks to be visited. I wish heineken amd some of the better breweries would start doing them.

squonk · 27-11-2022 9:56am

Yeah I think they’rea good alternative to the 330ml A airtight. It’s just replacing one medium with another. I can’t see the mainstream guys doing that though. I think a lot of people just like holding a bottle and, also, bottles feel substantial whereas a can seems dinky. I think they’d open themselves up to a lot of flak and it might not be popular. I think this might be one area where the craft folks are kind of leaping ahead of the a population as a whole. Most don’t seem to have an issue with cans.

Incidentally I also see the majors are getting in on the short arse game as well. I had a few bottles of carlsberg over the summer that were 300ml and not the 330ml you’d expect. Some of tge good looking supermarket deals on carlberg too were for those 300ml bottles. .

the beer revolu · 27-11-2022 11:27am

I don't think 33cl would work for mainstream beers in Ireland.

I've observed some really odd attitudes towards beer formats - particularly people who will under no circumstances drink draught beer. My local has no bottled beers and I've seen people faced with this order wine rather than draught beer. I suspect people like this would also refuse cans.

mikeecho · 27-11-2022 5:53pm

15 odd years ago I was in Mooregate, and did a tour of the Duvel brewery, arrived unannounced and the only English speaking tour they had going on that day was a vip type tour for a British vintner's group.

We (the Irish) were asked why they never get the Duvel bottles or crates back, they were a bit surprised that we didn't have a deposit scheme.

Anyway, currently having a 5% Heineken 440ml can from up north, tis grand, a lot nicer than the 4.5% Irish stuff.

loyatemu · 28-11-2022 9:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119926925#Comment_119926925

Carlsberg has been 300ml for years, in multipacks at least.

330ml cans are the norm on the continent, every café and kiosk in France sells 330ml cans of Kronenbourg and Heineken.

Macy0161 · 28-11-2022 12:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119930041#Comment_119930041

Not sure about Carslberg, but supermarket bottles of bud must have been 300ml for 10 years plus?

What Happened To Bottles?

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