Russia - threadbanned users in OP

Quote: "us estimates

40K civilian killed aswell,they've paid an horrendous toll.....and it's only going to escalate from here,as it moves from skirmish to pitches battles to dislodge Russians from entrenched defensive positions" Unquote.

Had Putins original 3-day plan worked, and he had taken Ukraine, the current figure of 40'000 civilians dead would pale into insignificance (and I don't mean that disrespectfully) by comparison with how many civilians Putin's hordes would have killed since February? 100'000, 200'000, 300'000, 400'000, 500'000??? Take your pick. And I'm talking about the civilians, and not the military. As for the battles with the entrenched Russians, so far, all things considered, the Ukraine military has done remarkably well, given the nature of war itself. Their strategies will be talked about for years and included in military academy teaching.

Quote:- "Meaningful peace talks are needed badly imo,otherwise we're looking at a civilian catastrophe next year and a likely breakdown in civil life,which will cause a lurch into civil war conditions with Wagner group likely killing with impunity aswell in the occupied regions", UnQuote

It may help if you shared your thoughts on what would be involved in these peace talks. Personally, for me, peace talks only when Ukraine looks for them. Breakdown in civil life...well so far, the only breakdown in civil order is where the Russians / Wagner are in occupation, and both the Russians and Wagner group have been killing with impunity since day one. So what's new there? Definitely no breakdown in Civilian life in the Ukrainian liberated areas

Collaborators: - Since the dawn of mankind, collaborators have met murderous ends during wars. Remember what the French resistance did to collaborators? Even the women who had German boyfriends.? Public shaming by cutting off their hair? Even nearer home, here in Ireland? The Quisling's? But whatever the Ukrainian resistance or even civilians have done, it pales into insignificance compared to the horrors Putins murderers have done in Ukraine, and it's going on now this minute, and will go on until the last Russian has left Ukrainian territory.

Spill over into other Country's? Yes, had Putins plans worked, I'm pretty sure that there would be multiple wars going on now, especially in Country's bordering Russia, and maybe further afield. How about East Germany? Alaska? (yes it's on Putins list) Now thats serious refugee figures you would have, not to mention a recession that would make the present on like a storm in a teacup. And how about conscription in the west? Yup. That would be a possibility too, had Putin not been stopped. We in the west owe a dept of gratitude to Ukraine for stopping Putin.

The war in the Balkans bears absolutely no comparison to what is happening in Ukraine, and where one country illegally invaded an independent sovereign state. The war in the Balkans started when the former Yugoslavia split up along religious / ethnic lines after the death of Tito. Both Croatia and Serbia, do not have civil strife now, in Bosnia there is still friction between the ethnic / religious groups, but the war is long finished. This civil war you speak about is not going to happen in a liberated Ukraine.

Sanctions:- Yes the sanctions are working, and biting deeper all the time, with another round being planned, and due to kick in soon Why are the Russians trying every trick in the book to get them removed? And on a more personal note, my friends there tell me that for ordinary Russians (and not just the oligarchs) they are feeling the shortages in the shops, with it becoming more and more like the old USSR era shortages. Back to the USSR GUM stores soon.

NATO:- When the time is right for NATO / US to put boots on the ground, they will do so, for now, strategically they are happy to keep supplying Ukraine with ever increasing amounts of the armament's that they need.

Peace Talks:- Quote "At no point have I said, nor suggested anyone accept Russia's position,nor is it a precondition of a peacetalks....any functioning adult can see this reality. Unquote.

Yet you imply the thousands of deaths that will occur unless there are peace talks. So the humanitarian Crisis blackmail bit...When posters speak about the civilian death toll as justification or used a lever for peace talks, I'm always suspicious about their motivation. Where's the guarantee that there won't be thousands of deaths even with a peace agreement, given Russia's history of signing treaties, and breaking them even before the ink is dry? And this is well understood by any functioning, or even non-functioning adult. Russian agreements are less than worthless, Russia now urgently needs breathing space, to conscript and train more soldiers, to replenish its armaments etc. And any "Peace" movement from the Russian side is to be seen in that light.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm all for a peace talks, but only when Zelensky agrees to them, and not before. It has to be Ukraine's decision, without pressurization from 3rd parties. You will only have peace in Ukraine when the Russians have left, and not before.

You actually think Putin will agree to your peace plan???

Putin is an expert at normalizing atrocities, we're at that point, it's war crime after war crime, day after day, and the world has been conditioned not to care.

Most people are bored with ukraine now, the interest is in the cost of living which russia is hoping will work. I don't support russia but ukraine has to compromise, they are not nato member and the West is only supporting ukraine for its own Interests, if it was located further east they couldn't care less. Nato will want a settlement and they provide the weapons so it will happen.Ukraine will get their territory back eventually but not in the near future that is just reality. Russia as a country will fail due to its size and diminishing population but not yet.

Briefly, (unlike my last post, where I went into detail)

(1) Russia is not to be trusted...ever.

(2) as I mentioned earlier, Russia speaking about peace talks, is a scam. They are feeling the pressure, at every level. Getting weapons from Iran, N Korea, etc, Recruiting men from Syria, Africa, Afghanistan ( ?? ) prisons.etc. Scraping the bottom of a very deep barrel. This winter is Putins last shot, and he knows it. All your thought's about what Putin will do during the winter....maybe he will, but I cannot see it. The hi-tec equipment you mention considering he is having to cannibalize his aircraft to keep them in the air, tanks which saw service in ww2...and the list goes on. Cracks are starting to appear in Putins Russia, cracks which do not bode well for Vladimir. Zelensky is not Putins only worry now, he has ones closer to home. A rapidly developing unhappy home population is another one.

(3) Ukraine has no manpower shortages, on the contrary, they as many as they will need to get the job done, Even if that figure is a million, they have the Nrs. They have the weapons suppliers, and the quantities and quality, with more and more even higher tec weapons on the way. Plus, the logistics to put the whole package together. And they are being financed to a high level. Most important, morale, they are fighting for their families and Country. There is no stronger incentive

(4) Why would the west give Zelensky nuclear weapons? Why would they need too? Putin is the only one talking about nuclear weapons, and even his friend (supposedly) China, has told him to turn down the rhetoric. The west has more than enough conventional weapons to sort out Putin, and very quickly at that.

Eeehh,,,, NO! Only in Putin's corrupt mind. Time for someone to put down the vodka bottle and go to bed. Actually there are a few here tonight that seem to be vodka posting.

Just stop posting this nonsense.

Fighting an insurgency for 8 years? An "insurgency" only made viable by Russia. Without Russia intervention the "insurgency" would have collapsed within weeks. The irony is that Russian intervention achieved very little, hence this current war, BECAUSE Ukraine was united against it.

Russia pounding civilian targets, cities, will not win them the war. That's been proven time and time again in history. Countless countries have been hit far, FAR, harder and failed to break in historical conflicts, what Ukraine is suffering is horrendous, but nowhere near breaking point. Russia is doing this because it's floundered on the actual battlefield and continues to do so, and is resorting to Nazi Germany terror tactics.

It didn't work then, it won't ultimately work now.

Who would have thought it. A modern Ukrainian army trained by the west, trouncing the antiquated Russian army with a fraction of the annual budget. How embarrassing.

The point about strikebacks on Russia soil is irrelevant. It doesn't matter. Russia is the aggressor, Russia is the one that needs to feed a war machine that's not officially at war, fighting against an entire nation, and frankly, proven to not be capable of waging a real war after losing their opening gamble.

I don't know what your obsession is with these mythical Russian defenses. Smacks of Hitler ranting about the impenetrable Atlantic Wall. We had posters here claiming that Ukraine could never take Kherson because of the topography. Sorry to rain on your parade but the Russian army is a rotten, corrupt disaster and it's being exposed by an army minuscule in size with very limited western support.

And now Ukraine needs nuclear weapons to break the deadlock in your imaginary campaign? Ukraine should surrender because of the danger of civil war, despite the fact there's absolutely zero fracture within Ukraine, because the entire country is united against Russia? Seems impartial.

Finally, Belarus. Ukraine should surrender because your vague, erotic, far-flung fantasy of civil war in Ukraine, might affect the dictatorship in Belarus, thus causing a refugee crisis.

Seriously, put down the crack pipe.

A positive show of strength 5 NATO carrier groups and escorts patrolling the waters around Europe.

The Gerald R Ford is the newest US carrier.

Unity against 1 brutal and thankfully weakened enemy.

I live in an area where many Russians have arrived for holidays they are cold creatures its in their eyes.

Repeating the same nonsense does not make it true. Why would Ukraine compromise? The tide has turned against Russia and the West continues to back Ukraine.