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Cycle to Work dealer upping advertised price.

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    #32
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Just for clarity sake, e-bikes are not illegal

    Unrestricted ebikes that can be electric powered only (not assist) and are not speed limited are illegal.

    Buying from this crowd means you have money to waste, you are happy to break the law and you don't care too much about warranty's. "I could be enough of a thorn in their side to make them reconsider." is just a silly position because they can just as easily ignore you.



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    #33
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,554 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    My BIL can make his own purchasing decisions. I just gave him a few options.

    sure, but people's reactions here aren't going to be strictly limited to the questions you ask.

    the '1000W motor restricted to 250W means it will last longer' is like buying a ferrari and keeping it under 50km/h to reduce wear and tear. and i suspect if they do deliver it restricted to 250W, they will make it child's play for the purchaser to remove that restriction.



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    #34
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,894 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119893084#Comment_119893084

    They own let's cycle so that not true. It's price gouging. The only legitimate explanation is they add on expecting it to be a middle man company (which are also legally dubious but that's another story). Them claiming it's VAT is BS but so long as they aren't actually double charging and it's only BS then it's just stupidity. Reading round some of the site though, it's all a bit weird.



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    #35
    CantGetNoSleep
    Registered Users Posts: 7,251 ✭✭✭CantGetNoSleep


    Yeah but mind is clearly made up



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    #36
    ...Ghost...
    Registered Users Posts: 3,670 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119893197#Comment_119893197

    I'm not buying from anywhere and would appreciate you don't try to paint me as some renegade e-bike law breaker 😂.

    If I was inclined to be a thorn in their side, I wouldn't restrict my contact to them directly. Plenty of outlets to show up a company not taking care of their customers. From the little bit of research I did, I found they were above average in customer care despite their BS on the website. My BIL is well aware that buying online is riskier than buying from B&M shop.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119893240#Comment_119893240

    Perhaps it's easy to remove any placed restrictions, but the customer and person using the e-bike is responsible for its use. Your analogy is not accurate. You are comparing speed with power and they are different things. I get what you mean though....but if the price is basically the same on a product with a 250W, 500W, or 1000W motor....all limited to 250W, why would anyone buy the 250W version?

    The same is true for EV home chargers. There was no difference between a 16A or 32A unit in the vast majority of units. But the 32A unit could be or would often be limited to 16A by the cars OBC. If the car could take 32A, but the EVSE was only a 16A capable unit, the car would only charge at half the speed. It was seen as prudent by those in the know that one should always buy the more capable unit, even if their current EV could not draw more than 16A. It's the same reason many owners, owners have 6^2mm SWA installed where 4^2mm SWA would be more than enough for the 32A (7Kw draw). Future proofing and reducing stress on the system is not a bad idea. Having the ability to unlock more later can be a great thing.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119893262#Comment_119893262

    That's interesting. I didn't know that. Thanks.

    Their site a bit of a mish mash alright.

    Stay Free



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    #37
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,894 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    A few things, first, because we can't verify you are who you say you are, you need to email hello@boards.ie or message one of the site admins to get verified before you post again.

    Second, if this is the genuine company, nothing about that post fills me with confidence if anything goes wrong. Either way, if you are a reseller, then you are still the seller and all the obligations that go with that, including being the only entity a buyer has to deal with if there are issues.



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    #38
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,554 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    @ pogosupport - do not post in this forum any more until you get your clearance from the head office. if you attempt to post again before that you will be banned.



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    #39
    seanin4711
    Registered Users Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭seanin4711


    skeptical about BTW tbh.

    i feel bike shops have ok frames but add lower tear components sora etc and add in a lot of padding to their 1300 price tag to maximize their take.

    Much prefer go down the 2nd hand route and there are definitely a lot of bikes available and bargains to be had if you know what you are looking for.

    Seen a very clean alu frame/carbon fork with full ultegra and DT swiss wheels for 450 as an example.

    Buy & Bring to local Bike shop and spend 50 quid on a service, job done.



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    #40
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,415 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661048#Comment_120661048

    Shops don't do that. They get bikes supplied with the components from the likes of Maddison in the UK and other dealers who are agents for the manufacturers.



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    #41
    cletus
    Registered Users Posts: 7,991 ✭✭✭cletus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661048#Comment_120661048

    Bike shops aren't building up bikes for sale on the BTW. If you order a bike from a bike shop, it comes with the build specced by the manufacturer.

    I'd be very surprised if downgrading of components was happening wholesale in bike shops around the country



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    #42
    ...Ghost...
    Registered Users Posts: 3,670 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    The issue is all prices are hiked BECAUSE of the grant. POGO have just gone a step further and increased the cost for anyone using the BTW scheme. I would order a bike from them using the BTW scheme were it not for the extra they charge for going through the BTW scheme. No other place charges extra for using the scheme...the price is the price. I would like to see POGO fix the anomaly they have created and come back here to tell us.

    Stay Free



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    #43
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,554 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    they're not coming back here unless OKed by head office - any account belonging to a business has to be approved first.



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    #44
    Paddigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Not exactly the same scenario, but my LBS won't sell via BTWS where certain middleman companies are used by the employer to administer the scheme for the simple reason that the middleman charges a hefty fee which it forces the retailer to bear. Essentially eating into whatever margin the LBS would otherwise have enjoyed on the sale. Possibly not an issue for some shops that deal in volume, but clearly not worth the hassle for this particular LBS, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are plenty more like it. The alternative, of course, is to up the retail price for BTWS sales using that middleman until the LBS would make what it otherwise would.



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    #45
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,554 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    AFAIK decathlon also won't deal with those middlemen. their margins are probably extremely small.



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    #46
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,894 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662714#Comment_120662714

    People do get there is technically no extra cost for using the scheme as its self reported. POGO are just running tight margins and can't deal with middlemen who are , technically, illegal, despite several government bodies using them.



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    #47
    seanin4711
    Registered Users Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭seanin4711


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661198#Comment_120661198

    i would be very surprised if it wasnt



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    #48
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,010 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664576#Comment_120664576

    How are they illegal?



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    #49
    cletus
    Registered Users Posts: 7,991 ✭✭✭cletus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120665753#Comment_120665753

    So are you suggesting that routinely, around the country, bike shops are taking bikes from manufacturers with, let's say, 105 components, stripping them, and rebuilding with Sora or Claris level components?

    This, despite the fact that manufacturers will clearly state what level of build any given bike comes with?



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    #50
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,894 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120665848#Comment_120665848

    The legislation is quite clear that the company buys directly from the bike shop, these middle men taking a slice are not in line with the legislation.



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    #51
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,010 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669835#Comment_120669835

    The Revenue rules state "There are no restrictions as to where the employer can purchase the goods from."

    https://revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-05/05-01-01g.pdf

    What's the difference between buying from a middle-man, and buying from a retailer who got the bike from a distributor, in terms of the legislation?



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    #52
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,894 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669946#Comment_120669946

    Vouchers are not allowed which is effectively what a middle man is.



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    #53
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,010 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Certainly, vouchers aren't on the list of permitted products, but no one is really buying a voucher, they're buying a bike, at the end of the day.



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    #54
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,686 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120670713#Comment_120670713

    But the problem is the voucher is part of the transaction process and that’s where the grey area comes in to play.

    Technically your salary deductions, and the invoice your employer pays to the 3rd party middle man are for the voucher. The transaction between the 3rd party and the bike shop is separate, especially since they’re charging a commission to the bike shop. And then the redemption of the voucher is another separate transaction, between you and the bike shop.



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    #55
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,415 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120665753#Comment_120665753

    It would take more time than it's worth for a shop to be doing that. Why would they be taking the time to strip a bike down, recable it, possibly with internal routing too. The price of getting a whole groupset,even a lower end one to put on the bike in the first set would not be beneficial remotely enough. They'd barely cover any of that cost, even if they can sell the groupset they've removed. They often then have the issue of bikes that come with no series parts, so they'd be left with partial groupsets


    Plus you can easily look up the spec of most bikes online and see what a particular frame comes with. You'd often have the claris and sora frames being in completely different colours to the tiagra and different again as you go higher.


    If you're in the business of selling second hand bikes and little else, or you're service is custom builds it makes sense but otherwise it's just a non runner



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    #56
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,894 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    If you raise the invoice you are the company to deal with in regards statutory rights to the consumer for warranties etc.



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    #57
    ...Ghost...
    Registered Users Posts: 3,670 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682825#Comment_120682825

    Thanks for getting your account verified.

    If I buy without using the BTW scheme, do I pay the price advertised on site?

    If yes, do I receive a receipt from PogoCycles with VAT included and the total price being the same as the advertised price on the site?


    Example; You have advertised the following bike for €1,599 https://pogocycles.com/products/engwe-m20-electric-bike?variant=46732206702915

    If I buy this today from you, do I pay €1,599 total? Do I receive a receipt for €1,599 including VAT?


    You seem to be saying that the manufacturer issues a billing receipt, but I wanted to check with you directly, as this is not my experience when I buy from the like of LightInTheBox who are also a reseller, but issue the receipts directly.

    engwe.JPG


    Stay Free



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    #58
    0ph0rce0
    Registered Users Posts: 3,949 ✭✭✭0ph0rce0


    I was looking at another model there before but noticing the BTW add-ons in the FAQ confused me. Maybe I'm thick.

    I can go through the cart and pay the price say 1000 euro on the site by card. Says taxes included and shipping so I assume that includes VAT etc... plus some shield packing assurance which you can remove.

    But if someone is trying to save a few quid and use the BTW they get extra charges added on.

    Surely then after adding the admin charges and vat, the couple of quid savings say from a 20% taxpayer was going to save on the bike which is the whole reason for it just gets eatin up with the admin and vat charges. No 🤷

    Therefore you're not really gaining from it.

    I could be completely wrong. 😂 So confusing.



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    #59
    standardg60
    Registered Users Posts: 4,706 ✭✭✭standardg60


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682825#Comment_120682825

    But you're charging 23% tax on an amount that already has a 23% tax on it, so really you only pay the difference between the two.

    The manufacturer is paying 356 euro vat and you're paying 429 in the OP's example, a total of 785 on the bike if bought through the scheme?

    Doesn't sound right.



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    #60
    ...Ghost...
    Registered Users Posts: 3,670 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120685757#Comment_120685757

    So, you are acting as an affiliate, but you take payment from the customer and also offer support online. That’s a very messy setup.

    My business worked with voucher companies for several years and while I was the service provider, the voucher company (groupon or living social etc) were the recipients of the funds from the customer, gave receipts to the customer and were the first point of contact relating to the purchase.

    would it not make more sense for Pogo to take greater ownership of the sale? If you pay the manufacturer (which you do anyway) then you could invoice the customer and add the VAT of the base price, rather than adding VAT twice for BTW customers.

    Stay Free



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    #61
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,554 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i still fail to understand how you can state that the cycle to work scheme would have additional taxes.

    why would the cycle to work scheme accrue taxes than a non-cycle to work scheme purchase would not?



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