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Cycle to Work dealer upping advertised price.

  • 17-11-2022 6:35pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,061 ✭✭✭


    My BIL is in the market for an electric bike. His employer is on board for the cycle to work scheme. I was asked to help him find a bike. I found an e-bike on POGO Cycles who advertise the cycle to work scheme. The chosen bike can be ordered for €1,899.00 from the site which includes VAT, taxes and delivery.

    The problem is when going through the bike to work scheme you need to ask for a quote. The quote received lists the following:

    Name of bike: €1,899.00

    Taxes and admin charge: €474.75

    Sub total: €2,373.75

    Discount: €118.69

    Delivery: €37.98

    Total: €2,293.04

    So they are charging an extra €394.04 to use the bike to work scheme. This doesn't seem right.


    Is it normal to see a seller add admin charges and additional taxes and fees on top of the normal price? It seems odd to me.

    After my BIL showed me the invoice, I checked the website to confirm the cart price and then saw they had the following written on their bike to work page:



    "Please note cycle to work quotes would have additional taxes. (my emphasis)

    To Generate a quote, Follow these steps :-

    1) Add the product to your cart

    2) Go to your cart.

    3) Go to bottom of the page and click on "Request a quote"

    4) Fill in the details

    5) You will have a quote in your email

    6) Submit the quote to your HR

    Detailed instructions with images below 

    Reach out to our support team in case of questions"


    So am I right to think this is just price gouging cycle to work scheme customers?

    Stay Free



«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭walterking


    Business to business purchases are normally quoted ex vat (23%)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,061 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    So the quoted price should be around €1,545...give or take? This was my thinking

    Stay Free



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,186 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Exactly, you cannot add vat based on an already inc. vat cost, it's a complete scam which should be investigated.

    The company who purchases the bike must pay the vat but may not claim it back as part of their normal expenditure, so in effect they are the end user and should be paying the same cost as if you'd bought it yourself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 977 ✭✭✭8valve


    Is the employer paying the bike supplier directly, or using a third party company to administer the btw scheme for them?

    Some third party companies are taking 10-15% of the total transaction cost out of the bike sellers profit margin, whether they be an online supplier or local bike shop. Worth noting. This makes them a less profitable proposition for bike shops.

    Buy from a local bike shop would be my advice. However, I may be slightly biased. I work in one.

    If a warranty issue arises, how will an online supplier fix it for you?

    Wouldn't it be easier to call into a shop where the bike was bought and talk to a human?

    Use 'em or lose 'em, folks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,061 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    The invoice was for the employer who would pay it and deduct from the employee over whatever period of time they agreed.

    A shop would be preferable, but I can't find the particular bike in a B&M shop. The Coswheel T20 is the bike that fit the bill.

    Stay Free



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,941 ✭✭✭MojoMaker


    Quite a few references to the business being a 'European business', but yet nothing about it being based inside the EU.

    The UK for example is very much in Europe, and obviously not inside the EU. Taxes (VAT + Import Duty) and Admin charges sound familiar - they'd hardly be that schnakey would they?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,061 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    Listed in D18

    I could order for the advertised price with free delivery, but as soon as it becomes a bike to work scheme order, they tack on hundreds of euros.

    Stay Free



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,989 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Plenty places don't do this and are good to deal with. If you have the option I would look for it elsewhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,186 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Have you actually any evidence that companies are using a third party supplier? I don't see how that would make any sense, and if it was the true the third party would be charging the company and not the bike shop. In any case the OP said the invoice was received directly from the supplier.

    Does your bike shop charge the same price for btw schemes as a walk in?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    ...

    It makes perfect sense because employers only have to set up one supplier on their systems.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 977 ✭✭✭8valve


    Yes, plenty of evidence. Third party BTW administering companies offer their services to employers, to administer their employees BTW schemes, at no cost to the employers. They handle the funds and make the payment to the bike shop, minus their fees, which cuts the payment the bike shop receives for the bikes. Basically a percentage of the bikes retail cost, just for filling out some paperwork and a couple of online credit transfers. Nice easy money for them, big chunk of margin loss for the bike shop.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 977 ✭✭✭8valve


    And yes, we charge the exact same price for bikes for customers using the BTW scheme or walking into the shop.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,186 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Yeah came up as an ad on my search, we don't charge you we charge the shop who then charge you.

    How does anyone fall for this sh!t.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,186 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Fair play so, assume you don't deal with these third parties, or is it a case of volume versus margins?

    At the end of the day the person who ends up paying more in this scenario is the end user and the taxpayer, what's new.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 88 ✭✭MyDarkArts


    Not sure where the need for the quote enters the equation. It's not a requirement of the scheme, so presumably that comes from the employer in this case.

    AFAIK, there's no need for the sale to even mention that it's part of the B-T-W scheme. Just that the payment for the bike is made by the employer, and presumably any invoice/receipt would therefore be made out to the employer.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    They are just scamming and if your company do pay by card they can just ignore the quote and buy it from the website direct.

    Personally though, they look like they are just a forward shipper, nothing illegal, but I'd be going elsewhere as it will be a pain if anything goes wrong.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,895 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    from their FAQ:

    "I created a Bike to work quote and there is an additional charge of VAT in it. Why is that there?We are an Ireland registered company and hence we pay this VAT to revenue.

    None of this amount you pay stays with us :)"

    they only add VAT on BTW purchases? what horse ****.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,997 ✭✭✭Dr Turk Turkelton


    Maybe drop Revenue an email with all that has happened here.

    They could be very interested in the way this company operates.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,300 ✭✭✭CantGetNoSleep


    I would agree with the suggestions of finding a different bike and a different store



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,061 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    It's very messy the way POGO is doing it. My BIL does want that particular model, so will have his employer order it and go from there. Thanks to @MyDarkArts for suggesting an invoice is not needed in this case.

    Stay Free



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,903 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Check this out. Avoid at all costs:

    SECTION 13 - DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTIES; LIMITATION OF LIABILITY

    We are a marketplace which means all products are sold on our website are straight from manufacturers. we shall have no liability whatsoever arising from using the products sold on our website



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,895 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    there are two bikes on the site marked at €1899 currently and both are legally mopeds, not bicycles.

    one of them has a 1000W motor and is listed at 48KG!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,061 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    Stay Free



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,903 ✭✭✭✭ted1




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,895 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    why would you buy a bike with a 1000W motor restricted to 250W?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Aside from they can't legally do that, I mean jebus. Report to revenue (CCPC won't engage) and be glad you dodged it. The tax claims about VAT will warrant an investigation and I suspect their books are a little off.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That place looks as dodgy as ****.

    there’s a “bike” on there with a 1500w motor and a range if 60km in “pure electric” mode.

    they are electric motorbikes and yet you see kids riding these things to school.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,061 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    The bike isn't for me, but there is a very good reason for the restriction of power and speed. First and foremost, anything above 250W motor, or 25km/h speed are illegal under the new laws coming into force, regulating the use of e-things. Secondly, a 1000W motor limited to 250W is only performing at 25% capacity or less, therefore reducing stress on the motor and increasing the life span. Finally, my BIL chose it.

    Stay Free



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,300 ✭✭✭CantGetNoSleep


    Given that there is the price issue that you first raised, potential tax issues, questions around the legality of the bike, and most importantly of all, no warranty (there are a lot of things to go wrong on an ebike), would you not tell your brother in law to reconsider his choice?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,061 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    Original issue: Since posting, I found the reason for the hike in price. As POGO are a reseller, they are using Lets Cycle for the bike to work orders. I don't know the details of the agreement, but it lends to reason that they can't match the €1900 price when Lets Cycle are selling for €2373.

    Tax issue: I see no potential tax issues. Purchased via the website and shipped within Europe, there is no tax liability for the customer and no mention of dodgy dealings in any trustpilot reviews, of which there are many.

    Legality of bike: E-bikes and scooters are technically still illegal until the new legislation passes. He currently uses an e-scooter and is less likely to have a legal issue on an e-bike, so that's not a concern and doesn't prevent countless numbers of people from using these devices on our roads, myself included in the past.

    Warranty: Again, not really concerned here. If there were to be an issue regarding warranty and POGO were unwilling to assist (as is their legal requirement as the actual seller despite their poor attempt to write their way out of responsibility) I could be enough of a thorn in their side to make them reconsider. I've done it several times before when sellers both online and B&M shops tried to side-step their responsibility and pass the issue to the manufacturer. The Coswheel T20 does seem to be one of the more reliable e-bikes out there though. Should small issues arise, we are an extended family with some technical skills at our disposal.

    My BIL can make his own purchasing decisions. I just gave him a few options.

    Stay Free



  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Just for clarity sake, e-bikes are not illegal

    Unrestricted ebikes that can be electric powered only (not assist) and are not speed limited are illegal.

    Buying from this crowd means you have money to waste, you are happy to break the law and you don't care too much about warranty's. "I could be enough of a thorn in their side to make them reconsider." is just a silly position because they can just as easily ignore you.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,895 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    My BIL can make his own purchasing decisions. I just gave him a few options.

    sure, but people's reactions here aren't going to be strictly limited to the questions you ask.

    the '1000W motor restricted to 250W means it will last longer' is like buying a ferrari and keeping it under 50km/h to reduce wear and tear. and i suspect if they do deliver it restricted to 250W, they will make it child's play for the purchaser to remove that restriction.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    They own let's cycle so that not true. It's price gouging. The only legitimate explanation is they add on expecting it to be a middle man company (which are also legally dubious but that's another story). Them claiming it's VAT is BS but so long as they aren't actually double charging and it's only BS then it's just stupidity. Reading round some of the site though, it's all a bit weird.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,300 ✭✭✭CantGetNoSleep


    Yeah but mind is clearly made up



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,061 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    I'm not buying from anywhere and would appreciate you don't try to paint me as some renegade e-bike law breaker 😂.

    If I was inclined to be a thorn in their side, I wouldn't restrict my contact to them directly. Plenty of outlets to show up a company not taking care of their customers. From the little bit of research I did, I found they were above average in customer care despite their BS on the website. My BIL is well aware that buying online is riskier than buying from B&M shop.

    Perhaps it's easy to remove any placed restrictions, but the customer and person using the e-bike is responsible for its use. Your analogy is not accurate. You are comparing speed with power and they are different things. I get what you mean though....but if the price is basically the same on a product with a 250W, 500W, or 1000W motor....all limited to 250W, why would anyone buy the 250W version?

    The same is true for EV home chargers. There was no difference between a 16A or 32A unit in the vast majority of units. But the 32A unit could be or would often be limited to 16A by the cars OBC. If the car could take 32A, but the EVSE was only a 16A capable unit, the car would only charge at half the speed. It was seen as prudent by those in the know that one should always buy the more capable unit, even if their current EV could not draw more than 16A. It's the same reason many owners, owners have 6^2mm SWA installed where 4^2mm SWA would be more than enough for the 32A (7Kw draw). Future proofing and reducing stress on the system is not a bad idea. Having the ability to unlock more later can be a great thing.

    That's interesting. I didn't know that. Thanks.

    Their site a bit of a mish mash alright.

    Stay Free



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    A few things, first, because we can't verify you are who you say you are, you need to email hello@boards.ie or message one of the site admins to get verified before you post again.

    Second, if this is the genuine company, nothing about that post fills me with confidence if anything goes wrong. Either way, if you are a reseller, then you are still the seller and all the obligations that go with that, including being the only entity a buyer has to deal with if there are issues.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,895 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    @ pogosupport - do not post in this forum any more until you get your clearance from the head office. if you attempt to post again before that you will be banned.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,202 ✭✭✭seanin4711


    skeptical about BTW tbh.

    i feel bike shops have ok frames but add lower tear components sora etc and add in a lot of padding to their 1300 price tag to maximize their take.

    Much prefer go down the 2nd hand route and there are definitely a lot of bikes available and bargains to be had if you know what you are looking for.

    Seen a very clean alu frame/carbon fork with full ultegra and DT swiss wheels for 450 as an example.

    Buy & Bring to local Bike shop and spend 50 quid on a service, job done.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,190 ✭✭✭cletus


    Bike shops aren't building up bikes for sale on the BTW. If you order a bike from a bike shop, it comes with the build specced by the manufacturer.

    I'd be very surprised if downgrading of components was happening wholesale in bike shops around the country



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,061 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    The issue is all prices are hiked BECAUSE of the grant. POGO have just gone a step further and increased the cost for anyone using the BTW scheme. I would order a bike from them using the BTW scheme were it not for the extra they charge for going through the BTW scheme. No other place charges extra for using the scheme...the price is the price. I would like to see POGO fix the anomaly they have created and come back here to tell us.

    Stay Free



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,895 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    they're not coming back here unless OKed by head office - any account belonging to a business has to be approved first.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,022 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Not exactly the same scenario, but my LBS won't sell via BTWS where certain middleman companies are used by the employer to administer the scheme for the simple reason that the middleman charges a hefty fee which it forces the retailer to bear. Essentially eating into whatever margin the LBS would otherwise have enjoyed on the sale. Possibly not an issue for some shops that deal in volume, but clearly not worth the hassle for this particular LBS, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are plenty more like it. The alternative, of course, is to up the retail price for BTWS sales using that middleman until the LBS would make what it otherwise would.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,895 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    AFAIK decathlon also won't deal with those middlemen. their margins are probably extremely small.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    People do get there is technically no extra cost for using the scheme as its self reported. POGO are just running tight margins and can't deal with middlemen who are , technically, illegal, despite several government bodies using them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,202 ✭✭✭seanin4711




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,290 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,190 ✭✭✭cletus


    So are you suggesting that routinely, around the country, bike shops are taking bikes from manufacturers with, let's say, 105 components, stripping them, and rebuilding with Sora or Claris level components?

    This, despite the fact that manufacturers will clearly state what level of build any given bike comes with?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    The legislation is quite clear that the company buys directly from the bike shop, these middle men taking a slice are not in line with the legislation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,290 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The Revenue rules state "There are no restrictions as to where the employer can purchase the goods from."

    What's the difference between buying from a middle-man, and buying from a retailer who got the bike from a distributor, in terms of the legislation?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Vouchers are not allowed which is effectively what a middle man is.



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