Accountability amongst the upper echelons of the Civil Service

03-11-2022 1:50am #1

There is none. Think the cervical smear scandal,the Hep C scandal, the monumental cock-up that is the HSE, the collapse of the forest industry in Ireland, the failure to rein in the banks, and then the arrogant refusal of Robert Watt to come before the Accounts Committee of Dail Eireann, but rather to attend by video...from just a few metres away, proof if needed that these people consider themselves immune to accountability.

Now, we do have piss poor politicians, and despite its failings, the HSE mostly delivered during COVID, the education system turns out well-qualified graduates, and the social net is commendable.

But overall, why is there no accountability?

Hermy · 03-11-2022 8:39am

Is it just down to voter apathy, an electorate that doesn't demand change in sufficient numbers, instead voting in the same politicians election after election, resulting in a complete lack of appetite for systemic change?

Jim2007 · 03-11-2022 9:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058270183/accountability-amongst-the-upper-echelons-of-the-civil-service

Why should there be? Civil servants are no different to the employees of any other organization. You want accountability go hold your elected representative to account. In that respect what have you actually done to do that?

Visited them at their local office to express your views?
Campaigned against them at election time?
Donate to candidates you feel represents your views
Join a party and actively participate in politics

or just sit behind a keyboard and vigorously type to the limit voter view on social media that in reality accounts for very little in a general election.

Accountability requires you to do something physical beyond typing on a keyboard. And if you are not willing to do that then you only have yourself to blame for the lack of accountability.

03-11-2022 9:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119827130#Comment_119827130

You're making a hell of a lot of assumptions.

I have lobbied politicians on a particular topic, and over the issue they say to a man" I'm getting this in the neck over this from my constituents". They know what's happening is wrong, but also say "have you ever heard of a senior civil servant being fired or resigning?".

All that I can say is there there isn't a TK Whitaker amongst any of them. What was that about turds rising to the surface?

Here we go again

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2022/1102/1332847-hse-doctor-organ-retention-babies/

03-11-2022 10:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119827016#Comment_119827016

Thye mandarins quietly strangle any attempt at reform

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/reforming-the-civil-service-1.45664

Larbre34 · 03-11-2022 10:12am

As Michael McGrath said this morning, in relation to Eoin O'Broin's civil servant comment; civil servants must be free to advise as they see fit at the time. The decision to act, or not, on that advice, is a matter for the elected Government and the Dáil.

As others have said, the accountability is your ballot and that little HB pencil, yet we have a solid 30% of eligible voters who never do.

Whats the betting that the correlation between that 30% and the cohort of society most disadvantaged by direct Government decisions, is strong? It would make interesting study for sure.

03-11-2022 10:14am

The buck stops with the Minister. Not the civil servants. The Minister has the power and the final say in all decisions. The civil servants can only advise.

So any elected representative who tells you

"they know what's happening is wrong, but also say "have you ever heard of a senior civil servant being fired or resigning?"

is fobbing you off.

Jim2007 · 03-11-2022 11:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119827200#Comment_119827200

So you have done one out of four things and clearly not enough voters agree with you enough to make the politicians take action.... there is still more to do if you are actually that concerned, but most are not.

03-11-2022 11:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119827246#Comment_119827246

Can you elaborate?

03-11-2022 11:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119827521#Comment_119827521

What are the other three things>

03-11-2022 11:54am

THe thrust of O'Broin's comment was that McCarthy was too orthodox and out of touch. Fair point. Does McCarthy have to get involved in CPD? I spoke with a former and very familiar politician and asked him why politicians get elected to Dail Eireann with the best of intentions and aspirations, but achieve very little. He said its the fault of top civil servants. They want to maintain the status quo, and will thwart change at every opportunity. He quit in disgust.

HerrKuehn · 03-11-2022 12:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119827246#Comment_119827246

Unfortunately TD's and ministers for all their self importance are basically sales people. It is a real struggle to change the state sector and the reason for that is down to the employees at all levels.

HerrKuehn · 03-11-2022 12:21pm

A great example is the HSE hack, Richard Browne was the acting head of cyber security as they were searching for a suitable candidate at the time. They couldn't find a suitable candidate, doubled the salary and appoint Richard Browne as head. So, he was in charge when the attack happened, gets a promotion and double salary.

blanch152 · 21-11-2022 11:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119827650#Comment_119827650

Ineffective politician blames someone else for his failures. Quelle surprise.

awec · 21-11-2022 12:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119827238#Comment_119827238

As others have said, the accountability is your ballot and that little HB pencil, yet we have a solid 30% of eligible voters who never do.

Is it?

Genuine question, but how many elections have led to a shake up in the civil service?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119827130#Comment_119827130

Civil servants are no different to the employees of any other organization.

Don't think this is true.

In a private company, it is extremely unlikely that a new leader would come in and keep the exact same people and the exact same structures underneath him. Private companies have re-orgs all the time, especially when leadership changes. If a particular leader or structure is ineffective, it is changed and they are replaced.

I think the OP has a point that there is limited accountability in the civil service. In theory, ministers should be coming in and structuring their departments to meet their priorities, in reality I don't think this happens in Ireland. We change the people at the very top (ministers), but the system underneath stays the same. Perhaps the biggest example of where this system is broken is the Dept of Health.

Though I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

Augme · 21-11-2022 12:27pm

A system where a Minister can hand pick who he likes doesn't sound appealing though. Job's for the boys and corruption are the first two things that immediately jump to my mind when I imagine that scenario.

AndrewJRenko · 21-11-2022 12:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119827781#Comment_119827781

Browne has/had nothing to do with HSE. He’s head of the NCSC.

This is a great example of people who are happy to blame civil servants for everything despite not having a clue about what those civil servants do.

awec · 21-11-2022 1:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119901067#Comment_119901067

He didn't say Browne had anything to do with the HSE. He said Browne temporarily was in charge of the NCSC when the HSE hack happened, then got his salary doubled and made permanent.

awec · 21-11-2022 1:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119901020#Comment_119901020

There has to be a happy medium as we see all too often governments struggle to introduce any sort of reform or modernisation in our public services.

Changing the person at the very top, and keeping everything underneath exactly the same? We can hardly be surprised when it's so difficult and slow for government's to get anything substantial done.

Augme · 21-11-2022 1:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119901211#Comment_119901211

What's the alternative? Have no one in the role?

Augme · 21-11-2022 1:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119901238#Comment_119901238

From my experience there's always a massive lack of political will to get anything done though.

awec · 21-11-2022 1:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119901267#Comment_119901267

Getting your salary doubled when there's no competition for your role is quite something.

Augme · 21-11-2022 1:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119901306#Comment_119901306

The fact there was no competition for the role at the original salary says a lot though.

doc22 · 21-11-2022 1:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119901306#Comment_119901306

They needed to appearantly double the salary to get the right candidate(properly qualified candiate). There was a competition for the role and funny enough the best person was the internal man. I don't think the gov will be breaching set payscales again.

21-11-2022 2:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119900819#Comment_119900819

Nonsense.

This discussion a bit too close to the bone for you?

AndrewJRenko · 21-11-2022 2:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119901211#Comment_119901211

Stop rewriting history. He didn’t mention NSCS at all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119901306#Comment_119901306

There was a competition for the role at the original salary. No one who knew their arse from their elbow applied.

eggy81 · 21-11-2022 2:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119827627#Comment_119827627

Did you not read above. If you haven’t done everything short of starting your own political party and running in opposition to the politician or party you feel aggrieved by, winning that election and opening an enquiry into said public service member, finding them guilty of some sort of offence or mistake and having them held accountable accordingly then you are to blame for lack of accountability.

Thems the rules. Hop to it.

blanch152 · 21-11-2022 5:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119901389#Comment_119901389

I have interviewed an awful lot of people for fairly senior public service jobs and to say that 99% of the outsiders who apply don't have a clue is being generous to them.

Podge_irl · 21-11-2022 8:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119900929#Comment_119900929

From my experience, junior to mid (and even reasonably high) level roles in the private sector are very much the same. It simply is not that common to get fired for strategic reasons.

The difference comes at the higher levels - e.g. in charge of a business unit. In those scenarios you know the risk in the private sector, however they also get paid a premium that the equivalent people in the civil service simply don't - be it in salary or stock. Call it a risk premium, but they are better set up to endure periods of unemployment following a restructuring. I don't imagine introducing similar levels of pay and benefits into the higher echelons of the civil service would get much support though...

21-11-2022 11:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119902646#Comment_119902646

A clue about what? A clue about the subject matter, or a clue about how to play by civil service rules i.e. don't make waves?

MrMusician18 · 22-11-2022 9:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119900929#Comment_119900929

You cannot really have wholesale reordering of departments every time a minister changes. If you did, literally nothing other than navel gazing would be achieved. Civil service provides the continuity required to actually run a country.

Accountability amongst the upper echelons of the Civil Service

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