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Autumn Internationals 2022

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Do you know how many wins Wales have managed this calendar year? That's the reason Welsh fans are up in arms about the coach, the WRU, the URC, the structures and everything else inbetween.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,245 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Only one win in each of the 2020 and 2022 6N too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,644 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers




  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    That one is easy. We never had an easier draw in the years that they “turned up”. They made the SF in 2019 and 2011. In 2019 they faced a French team that hadn’t turned things around yet and were focusing on 2023 while we had NZ who were the best in the world at the time. In 2011 we faced each other. That was arguably the Welsh close to their peak and Kidney bottled his selection. So of those years where they advanced and we didn’t we never had an easier draw.

    We did have an easier draw in 2015 when they had SA and we had Argentina. But we lost the spine of our team so neither of us progressed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,733 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Wales are not developing many good players. You look at the u20's and they have been dire. Scotland have been dire at u20 level too.

    The fans in Wales aren't supporting the regions. Whatever the problems are it's apparent that the union is not being managed well.

    Wales have a good record at the world cup. Better than ours. But, Wales are poor, with the 6nations coming you'd wonder how they'll go? I think they'll be lucky to win 3 matches. I can't see them win the tournament and the pressure on Pivac must be huge.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    This is something that I’ve never fully understood about people comparing us to Wales. Their Regions are a lot less successful or competitive than our provinces. Their national team can get up for big occasions at times but are horribly inconsistent (remember their 10 in a row losses vs Oz or losing at home to Fiji and now Georgia). They have come in the bottom half of the 6Ns table a few times over the last decade or so. That’s only happened to us once and our coach was sacked for it. The Welsh record against SH opposition is way worse than ours.

    Given the choice between a consistently competitive side who don’t let you down very often over a side that can lose to Fiji and Georgia at home while coming 5th in the 6Ns every few years but do manage an extra trophy and an extra round in the RWC (without winning it) then I know who I’d go for myself. Especially when you factor in the performances of the provinces to boot.

    I often wonder if those that talk about trophies being the only measure are people who just watch rugby on Wikipedia and not actually watch games. Because those same people would invariably be the ones calling for coaches heads if we had some of the years and/or performances that the Welsh have had over the last decade. They’ll happily ignore the actual rugby (where Ireland have been more consistently competitive) in favour of what Wikipedia tells them.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,965 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    With the regularity you criticise Ireland and Leinster (even in victory), I'm pretty confident if we lost to Georgia (repeat: Georgia!), you'd be absolutely slating us.

    Personally, I think this is a reversion to the mean for Wales, and put's into context that their 2021 6N's victory was... let's say "jammy".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,644 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Wales have a squad that has long needed some turnover of out with the old and in with the new but they just dont have anything coming through.


    They will eventually have to bite the bullet but its probably going to get worse before that happens especially at this stage of the WC cycle.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,987 ✭✭✭TheRona


    Let's not forget that Wales should have won the series in SA in the summer.



  • Subscribers Posts: 42,004 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    thats not saying much these days.....

    in this calendar year they've been beaten by Wales, New Zealand, Australia, Ireland and France.

    and that Wales win was over a very much south africa A team



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Should they? SA selected a much weakened side in the second test because they had won the first and backed themselves to win the third. Had they lost that first game then they wouldn’t have gone so weak in the second. And even against a much weakened SA they only scraped the win. They were behind until the 79th minute. They got well beaten in the final test. You could argue that they should have won the first test, but when you cough up 4 yellow cards you don’t really have any right to complain about losing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,959 ✭✭✭Shehal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,987 ✭✭✭TheRona


    Well NZ generally have SA's number, so that's to be expected.

    Ireland and France are #1 and #2 in the world, and both scraped wins against SA.

    My point is that you can take whatever you want from these games, but I wouldn't write Wales off. I don't think there's any team out there that is looking unbeatable at the moment.



  • Subscribers Posts: 42,004 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    agreed, theres no team out there looking unbeatable at the moment.... but wales are ranked 9th in the world currently and id rather play them than any of the 8 team ahead of them, in a RWC QF


    scotland will definitely fancy their chances in murrayfield in Feb



  • Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭tmc1963


    ''...at the moment''

    Always important to fully read something to avoid looking a bit over excitable and one-eyed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,169 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Worth noting that since 2019 (the period in which Wales won a GS plus a 6N Championship while Ireland won nothing), Ireland actually won more 6N games than Wales. I'd be fairly certain Ireland's record outside the 6N is far better too. 2021 is very much an anomaly without which Wales' record would be awful.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    This. In the last 10 years Ireland and Wales have both won 3 6Ns titles including 1 Grand Slam. They’ve the exact same number of trophies.

    However in that same period the average finish from Ireland is 2nd. The average from Wales is 3rd.

    9 of those years we’ve been in the top half of the table with 1 5th place finish (which will be 11 years ago in a few months). 7 of those years Wales have been in the top half of the table with 3 5th place finishes.

    We have finished ahead of Wales 6 times in the last 10 years. In the combined totals of the last 10 years we come out on top across the board. More wins, more points, better PD.

    2013 is a major outlier for us and drags down our average over the 10 years. And as above, that’ll be 11 years ago in a few months. In the 9 years since, all of the above obviously then shift in Irelands favour (especially as 2013 was one of Wales’ title wins). And all that despite the jammiest of titles to ever have gone a sides way in 2021.

    And this is just the 6Ns. In the RWC Wales have gone all of 1 game further than us once in that time period. But they have struggled outside of the tournaments. We’re at a 64% win rate vs the big 3 SH teams compared to their 30% in that time. We have beaten all 3 of NZ, SA and Australia more than we have lost to each of them over the last 10 years (56% vs NZ, 67% vs SA and 71% vs Australia). The opposite is true for Wales (0% vs NZ, 43% vs SA and 38% vs Australia). And of course they lost at home to Georgia!

    Add in their Regions fortunes in that time period (2 trophies to our 9 as well as their general lack of competitiveness) and it’s clear that we outperform Wales more than not. Which you wouldn’t get from some comments here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,733 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    You're a right prick! Why would you bring facts up? Why? It's not right!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Wales are running on fumes and the trend line for performance has been down for years. International results display that and those exceptional days when they win big and over perform are rarer and rarer. Every team goes through doldrums but the game itself is in real decline in Wales and eventually this will tell.

    And I'm not sure that you can take anything from results. Some are close games but as we know in Ireland there is a big difference between winning close games and losing them. We were losing close games against France and against the ABs for many years, what I'd take a way from that is that you are losing close games and the rest of the time you're being well beaten. Getting from there to winning close games consistently and not losing badly when you lose is a fundamentally different place to be in sport. For a start teams going out onto the field with real confidence (rather than hope) that you can beat whoever the opposition is, not just on the day but on any day.



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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Would another loss in Cardiff in February be a shock defeat or just consistent with the last decade?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm never confident about that fixture, but I'll be disappointed if we don't trounce them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,733 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I'd be stunned. We won't murder them but....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,770 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Wales' 1/4 win in the last WC was solely down to Vahaamahina doing Vahaamahina things. France were comfortably the better team up to that point.

    We get shat on for our issues winning at the 1/4s, which in terms of failing to perform, I agree with. That said, the circumstances have all been unique to themselves. 2003, if Humphries DG goes over, we win the group and likely beat a **** Scotland in the 1/4s. 2007, nuff said.. 2011, Kidney fucked up selection against arguably the best Welsh team ever imo, and that was tight game that wasn't unwinnable for us. 2015 we got destroyed winning against France, and Joe messed up not starting Fitzgerald in the centre vs Argentina. 2019 was a definite black mark, 2007 esque bed ****.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,644 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    The moment being a figment of your imaginative construction apparently



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,772 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    It would be a monumentally shocking defeat. Suspect we will start heavy favourites.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,987 ✭✭✭TheRona


    2015 Ireland also played with 15 men against France, when they should have been down to 14 from 30 seconds in. Swings and roundabouts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,830 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Weren't Ireland already through at that point? So even down to 14 and losing that game we would still have been in the 1/4.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,987 ✭✭✭TheRona


    Yes, Ireland was through, but would have had NZ instead of Argentina in the quarters had they lost to France.



  • Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭tmc1963


    Finn Russell is the best 10 in the NH (if not the world) at the moment - understand?

    If you think he is not - that's fine - keep behaving like a Wales Online Cyclops.

    ....if he is not, who is in your view?

    Post edited by tmc1963 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,959 ✭✭✭Shehal


    I'd say recent history between the two would downgrade it from a shock to a surprise but yes it would be a surprise as it would take a substantially better Welsh display than what we've seen in 2022 for them to win unless Ireland have another bed **** like they did in 2021.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,533 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    At the risk of being called biased... it's very clearly Johnny Sexton, or maybe Romain Ntamack.

    It absolutely is not Finn Russell.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,644 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Finn Russell should be prime minister he is such a good OH. The best OH in the world.

    I completely agree with you.


    There is clearly nobody better than him.


    You sir are a highly intelligent individual.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Is this sarcasm? It can be hard to tell sometimes on here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭tmc1963


    It was clearly JS for many years but not now - I'll go with what the lads who've played 10 at international level for top ranked teams are saying.

    Ask yourself another question that may help clarify your thoughts - on Saturday 7 October 2023 do you want to play the Scotland team that started last weekend or the one that started v Australia or Fiji. I know where I am on that!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah, but you must realise that there is a massive difference between being considered Scotland's best out half and the Northern Hemisphere's best out half?

    Johnny Sexton is now, and always has been, a better out half than Finn Russell.



  • Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭tmc1963


    Re my 'conversation' with Lawrence.

    Apologies to other posters - I thought I was talking to an adult with some knowledge of rugby.

    Having said that - does anyone else here actually watch the Top14?

    I watch all 3 leagues (and SH rugby) - I genuinely fear for the English game and unless the Welsh embrace the URC properly they deserve to be even more marginalised.

    IMO the top URC teams and the best Top14 teams will utterly dominate the HEC this year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,830 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    If Leinster play Racing in a knockout round I will be absolutely delighted to see Finn Russell starting at 10, as he remains an utter liability when the pressure comes on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,533 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


     do you want to play the Scotland team that started last weekend or the one that started v Australia or Fiji.

    If the question is whether Finn Russell is better than Blair Kinghorn, I don't think you'll find much argument here.

    The problem with Russell is that he is very talented in attack and deeply flawed in every other respect. He's not on the same overall level as the really great OHs at all IMO.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,959 ✭✭✭Shehal




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,772 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    That's Jonathan "WPOTY nominee and dream team member" Sexton, to give him his full title.

    There is also a reason Russell was dropped out of the Scottish team, and its that he can be a massive liability far too frequently.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,733 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Russell is brilliant! Or dour! Just doesn't be top level consistently. I worry about playing Scotland, on their day they are tough. Remember Hogg dropped the ball for a certain try not so long ago. They score that and who knows? We shouldn't take them lightly. With Russell they can be brilliant attacking. But Hastings could be their lad. I think he's a good player.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,772 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    They score that and we wouldn't have won the 6N (and Heaslip knocked it out of his hand moreso than him dropping it), but it was the difference between beating Scotland by like 33 points and 26 points.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No one is saying take them lightly, but we're considerably better than them in virtually every facet of the game.

    I think if I was doing a combined 15 of the teams, the only Scots I'd take over our players are possibly their wingers, and that's it. They have a smattering of good players, but a lot of very average players by international standards.

    We have nothing to fear from them; if we turn in a 7/10 performance for us, we beat them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Would Wales dropping out of the URC and joining the Premier improve things for them? I know part of Welsh rugby always wants that so politically it's probably an open door, and as long as Welsh club rugby deteriorates some kind of grand gesture is always attractive to the suits.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,733 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    What would England gain? Those regions are poor sides and would clog up the bottom of the league. Welch finances aren't inspiring either! Low attendances and things not looking to improve. If the wru cut 2 teams and invested in 2, they would probably have 2 good sides! They can't sustain 4 regions.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The English wouldn’t take them given the structural issues in the premiership. They’re trying to get it down to ten, and I suspect that franchising is inevitable in the long run. Even if the Welsh consolidated into two regions, that’s two premiership clubs that would get shafted, and the English owners would never go for it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,770 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Wales have foundational structural issues in their setup. From what I've read, the inability of the WRU to administrate the professional game separately from the amateur one is a huge one. Rugby in Wales is in serious danger of becoming non-viable imo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    It would give the English extra matches. The English swing between two different view points.

    They wanted 14 teams because they want a 26 fixture regular league season thinking more games means more tickets sold and more income.

    They are now wanting to cut to 10 to split sponsorship and rfu funding less so each team would get more.

    Some would think that the four Welsh teams would give them the best of both worlds. RFU funding split amoung 10 teams and a 26 fixture regular season.

    The Welsh think fixtures against the English would solve their attendance issues. It won't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,644 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Very insightful to think that the league which is falling apart at the seams, is being led by a recently promoted cheat, is hemorrhaging players and hasn't had a team in the last 4 of europe for the last 2 years wont be competitive either this year.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,644 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers




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