Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

effectively the swiss and the uk want the same, they want to take out the free movement pillar and the court of justice . neither will get that but they have the same idea.

could you explain why you think the swiss have a chaotic governace. i would suggest it works very well.

i would say in both cases it was joe blocks that votes on weather to be in the eu or not .

the sentiment of swiss people is very similar to the british people. the main difference is that Switzerland works while the uk doesn't .

For the EU, Switzerland is a tricky customer. In 1992, the country voted “No” to joining the European Economic Area (EEA); in 2021, it unilaterally broke off negotiations on a framework agreement with the EU. When it comes to economic cooperation, Switzerland always says “Yes, great”, but when the question turns to greater political integration, or even membership, it says, “No, thanks.” This has earned it a reputation for cherry-picking in Brussels.

Many Swiss see things differently. They like to consider themselves a freedom-loving, independent people who are willing to stand up to foreign masters (and commission presidents) William Tell-style. “Switzerland is too rich and too stable to want to join the EU,” says Fabio Wasserfallen, a professor of European politics at the University of Bern.

the difference is the swiss do referendums all the time and understand the implications of it. henceforth they voted against the end of free movement as they undertand the cost of it. but if they could iam pretty sure they would end free movement

there is real experts here, who know much better but i would guess the friction between eu and switzerland and eu and uk is pretty much the same right now. most here only look at the uk issue.

which is why the eu hits both with the horizon stick.

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A closer relationship with the UK definitely suits the EU and they would definitely be open to it. There's no "backsliding" on the part of the EU; this has always been the case. If the Times story suggests any "backsliding", its on the part of the UK.

But that closer relationship is very unlikely to be the Swiss model; the EU thinks the Swiss model works poorly even with Switzerland, a country that knows what it wants. It would be disaster with the UK.

But my point is that these questions aren't even mentioned in the Times story. How the EU might react isn't seen as sufficiently relevant to merit a mention. Which tells us that the Times story is one faction of Tories talking for the benefit of another. They don't care how the EU might react; the story is run to see how the Tories react. This is still a purely domestic negotiation — indeed, still a purely intra-party negotiation. The idea will die on its arse because, if the Brexit movement were capable of agreeing about Brexit, it would have done so long ago.

Yup. I suspect the idea actually being floated is a phytosanitary agreement, similar to the one Switzerland has. This would considerably alleviate the impact of the NIP which, it is finally dawning on the Tories, is something they need to do. But they didn't want to say that in as many words because, once they float the idea of a phytosanitary agreement, it is kind of hard not to go ahead, and they're not sure they want to go ahead. Plus, newspapers don't like running stories with "phytosanitary" in the lede; readers stop reading. So, vague language about aspects of the EU-CH relationship, which in journalese very quickly turns into a Switzerland-style deal.

No Tory faction wants a Swiss-style deal. It would involve a climbdown on FOM that they are just not ready for. Even though who see it as either desirable or inevitable would probably rather that the task of actually climbing down would fall to the coming Labour government.

Thanks for that. It is not good but the article describes things that countries got exempted rather than "backsliding", or ignoring sanctions. I believe similar has been happening with UK & its sanctions.

It is not principles. I honestly think the EU will not have capacity right now for another "Brexit" type process with UK while you have what is close to state of war with Russia, a potential trade war with China brewing, and Turkey making military threats on the regular against EU members (I am not totally convinced those are hollow). It is not 2016 any more. The EU is dealing so many external (and internal) challenges and threats now it is hard to keep track of it all.

I suppose it is partly about the UKs "clout", in that I don't think the UK is going to be able to shout above all that and demand action on what they want unless they are going to start some more trouble and aggression with the EU themselves (which would be exact opposite of a request for a "closer relationship"!).

If the UK knows what it desires as regards this closer relationship (no sign of that as yet, still a lot of arguing going on among different factions) and comes to the EU with something very worked out that isn't the same "have cake and eat it" proposals that seek to completely shaft the EU/member states for its own benefit am sure you are right, it is just I cannot see a big time consuming negotiation like 2016 to end of transition happening again.

have you lived in switzerland

did the swiss ever vote for to join the eu

do the swiss have a real agremment with the eu or did they leave eu treaty talks in 2021

i don think it 120 contratcts i think its 119 conrtacts as one on medicine has already run out ,

and as far as i believe the eu kicked switzerland out of horrizon in 2020 AFTER they left the negotiations and they also dont let the uk in . its not just about paying. i belive they both would pay but are not allowed to pay.

https://sciencebusiness.net/news/switzerland-ditches-eu-treaty-talks-leaving-question-mark-over-research-ties

How is that a Swiss-style deal? Switzerland don't have an agreement on Horizon. They previously did have some access as an "associated" country, but they don't anymore, same as the UK. Calling that a Swiss-style deal is the same as calling it a Thailand-style deal, or a Ghana-style deal

as far as iam concerned , and i could be wrong , there is also no real swiss eu deal at present , negotiations on this stopped 2021 after 7 years ....

while this is not a hard brexit, where all would have stopped form one day to the next , its in a way a slow swiss EEA exit now ,as the eu will not renew any outrunning bilateral agreement. so in my mind, to talk about a swiss style deal after may 2021 is silly .

i forgot switzerland is not even an EEA member so more the end of barrier free entry to the single market.

You are incorrect. Negotiations on a potential future agreement were terminated in 2021. They were also terminated in 2018, before being re-opened. And they have been re-opened again this year.

More to the point, the termination of these negotiations are in no way a signal that the current status of Switzerland-EU relations will be rolled back. And that relationship is nothing like the UK one, and there is zero prospect of the EU faciliting such an arrangement. Any claims of a "Swiss-style" deal are absolute nonsense statements floated by arch-Brexiters to try to paper over the cracks (or gaping chasms) of the disaster they brought upon their state.