General British politics discussion thread

Tom Mann Centuria · 22-11-2022 5:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119907707#Comment_119907707

I'm offering up several voices across the media who also think Starmer's speech was Conservative with a big C. If I'd have listed off the names I dare say I'd have been asked to show proof, so to preempt that I provided the evidence first.

If there's another way you'd like me to show others opinions that support mine, I'm happy to listen. By all means edit the post to remove the tweets, I'd do it for you but I can't work out how to remove tweets from posts (hence double Farage earlier)

ancapailldorcha · 22-11-2022 6:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119907727#Comment_119907727

Polling would be better than dumping tweets, no? As for "Conservative with a big C", why is this only the case when it's Starmer? Corbyn pledged to end free movement but that's fine because it was Corbyn. Corbynites would rather spend their time criticising him that Suella Braverman and that's the problem right there.

22-11-2022 6:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119904641#Comment_119904641

Surely bit of a dishonest critism there,when left not been in power,by your metric what has stramer achieved in the last 20 years politically?

It's not a trope lad,if you think labour are going to offer substantial difference to average person in UK under centrism,your going to be left down(literally near perfect definition for tory-lite would be centrism),

like it's clear they will win next election,just yous have painted yourself into a corner of desperately wanting electoral success irregardless of whether it delivers effective change and just seems pointless to me anyway

ancapailldorcha · 22-11-2022 6:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119907952#Comment_119907952

You reduced centrism to nothing more than burqa bans. If that's not disingenuous, I don't know what is.

The Corbynistas have done nothing but wail, moan and shelter antisemites. Starmer has turned the party from the wreck he inherited to something that might actually win. Momentum is withering away and the sooner it dies, the better.

New Labour did a lot, good and bad. The Labour left have done absolutely nothing but whinge and collect their paychecks.

PommieBast · 22-11-2022 6:44pm

@Capt'n Midnight

Or the PM can appoint a few hundred lords to swing the vote. A threat that hasn't been used. But this government would use the precedent or ignore as it suited them.

I think a threat simular to that was used in the run-up to the 1909-10 budget, the one that eventually lead to the 1911 Parliament Act.

Tom Mann Centuria · 22-11-2022 6:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119907933#Comment_119907933

Yeah, crazy left wing problem. Corbyn got a free ride from his critics, amazing just how quiet the right of the party were when he was leader. Didn't hear a peep from Alan Johnson, Tony Blair, Alistair Campbell, Peter Mandelson etc. etc. etc. daily, on every media outlet going. I won't provide the evidence of just how quiet they were.

On the matter I presumed we were discussing, I'll change my post if you prefer to:

"Lots of people in the media think Starmer has an air of the Conservative about him when it comes to immigration". Some of those voices would be seen as usually friendly toward Starmer.

I've no idea on their opinion on Corbyn because they didn't mention him, as they probably feel it wasn't relevant when discussing a speech by an entirely different leader.

22-11-2022 6:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119907969#Comment_119907969

The burka ban being most profile law introduced in France (country yous brought in) in recent years....perhaps perfectly highlights what centrism.is about....appeasing right ring conservatives,while pertaining to want progress and appeal to left,but the time is never just right,and therefore allow only miniscule progress,hence how we have decades where nothing happens,and life gets worse for millions....to simply dismiss and label any critism as disingenuous is in itself disingenuous

Realistically new labour have simply done same and collected their wage cheques last 12 years.....while pertaining to be an opposition,while not wanting to substantially change things.....your going to end up,same as here with 2 big parties deceiving people into thinking they are different,and I don't see any Vincent brown type persona emerging in UK to hold em to account

ancapailldorcha · 22-11-2022 7:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119908021#Comment_119908021

It doesn't. You're just cherrypicking. I could just as easily reduce left wing thought to antisemtism.

So collecting wages is fine when it's the left but not the centre? Funny that.

22-11-2022 7:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119908157#Comment_119908157

I'm really not,show to me a substantial issue,where centrists faced down conservative elements and implemented anything progressive......

I suspect,you'll run out of examples,long before I do....thus proving,centrism punches left/progressive and kisses to the right/conservative elements...under the guise of compromise/pragmatism,of which it is neither

Except of course,I neither said,nor implied it was ok/wrong for left to simply collect wages??,but if your going to critise left for something centrism is doing,it just seems irrationally partisan

ambro25 · 22-11-2022 8:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119908021#Comment_119908021

You really should look up laïcisme in France.

To those with little insight into French society and politics, no doubt that burka ban looked like a sop to the right wing.

Bothering to learn about France’s ancient ban on any and all ostentatious displays of faith in public buildings, civil services and such-like (and associated, non-trivial body of case law, mostly concerning *Christian* articles of faith as it happens) may prompt reconsideration.

To most French people -of any political persuasion- that burka ban was seen as France upholding its multi-centennial, fundamental principle of laïcisme. As I recall, the French Supreme Court agreed, and all.

Here’s the thing: generally speaking, nobody in France objects to people practicing whatever religion they wish, in the sanctity of their homes and churches, mosques, temples, etc. Just as generally speaking, however, nobody in France likes to have other peoples’ religion, be it the same or different to their own, shoved in their face either.

When you can reconcile those fundamentals of French society, you’ll get it 😁👍🏻

Capt'n Midnight · 22-11-2022 8:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119907974#Comment_119907974

Thanks , wasn't sure exactly when they made the threat.

breezy1985 · 22-11-2022 8:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119907969#Comment_119907969

Your absolute blind hatred of Corbyn makes otherwise insightful posts sound like Eskimohunt rants.

Its not fair to say they done nothing. Corbyn brought back in a lot of young voters who grew up with the idea that Labour were all about privatisation and bombing innocent children in Asia. He also put some real Labour issues back on the table that Starmer can build on.

Yourself and Blaaz are both being ridiculously black and white.

ancapailldorcha · 22-11-2022 8:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119908259#Comment_119908259

That's just a snide comment about me and another poster.

I don't like dishonesty. I don't see why I should tolerate it from the left or the centre when I don't tolerate it on the right. Had those young voters actually voted, we'd have maybe avoided Brexit and I'd be eating my words. Of course, that didn't happen. You cannot effect real change from the stage at Glastonbury.

Corbyn achieved nothing. It's really that simple. He had two elections, one where Theresa May said the unsayable and one where Boris Johnson just said three words over and over again, sometimes from a fridge.

The country voted for Brexit and then for the Tories twice. I wish it didn't but it did (via its broken electoral system). We are where we are. The British never saw freedom of movement as anything other than a negative because nobody ever made the argument for it. The left and the unions were always suspicious of it for various reasons while the right were openly hostile for reasons that are obvious.

I'd be happier if Starmer struck a resolute note in favour of the EU but that means handing power to the Conservatives at the next election on the back of Labour seeking to undo Brexit. I just want sensible government at this stage. I held my nose and voted for a devout Corbynista. That they'd rather enable the Tories than do the same says everything I need to know about them.

breezy1985 · 22-11-2022 8:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119908328#Comment_119908328

I held my nose and voted for a devout Corbynista. That they'd rather enable the Tories than do the same says everything I need to know about them

I don't think going all in to reverse Brexit is the position of Corbyn supporters in general. And ya he didn't get elected well many Labour leaders didn't but I bet they are forgiven.

I'm a hardcore Corbyn supporter but I agree with you on the positions Starmer has to take on Brexit. The UK needs Labour as soon as possible and I'm happy to make the best of whatever type of Labour Starmer creates because it will be a hell of a lot better than the opposition.

As for "holding your nose" to vote for Corbyn I had to vote for Kate Hoey.

ancapailldorcha · 22-11-2022 8:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119908383#Comment_119908383

My gripe with Corbyn (and the Labour left) is a simple one: Brexit. They bleat on and on about how bad austerity is, how crap a lot of minimum wage jobs are, inequality and so on. They're not wrong but then so many of them go on to welcome something like Brexit which continues to impair the UK economy. He went from being a Eurosceptic to giving the EU 7/10 in an interview. The biggest issue in a generation and he and his advisors decided to keep quiet and sabotage Alan Johnson's Labour Remain campaign. As I recall, a lot of people had no idea what Labour's position was on the issue. Then, on the 24th June, he's first to call for the invocation of Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty. You care about the poorest in society or you don't. It's that simple.

I had to vote for Barry Gardiner. Still regret it but Brent is as red as blood. As for Hoey, a Polish lad at work (of North African) descent said that she was extremely helpful to his family when it came to securing his mother's citizenship. Just going to leave that there.

breezy1985 · 22-11-2022 8:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119908476#Comment_119908476

Corbyns performance before the vote was poor. It was clear he was forced in to campaigning for remain. I wasn't surprised but it was a huge let down.

Absolutely hilarious though that you then sign off with praise for the most pro Brexit Labour MP in the country. A woman who literally sailed down the Thames with Farage to scream about Brexit. But ya she helped one lad. I'm sure Corbyn has a few of them stories too.

ancapailldorcha · 22-11-2022 9:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119908535#Comment_119908535

Well, I could have gone on about her supporting Brexit, getting friendly with the DUP and so on but does anyone here need to be told that again?

breezy1985 · 22-11-2022 9:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119908564#Comment_119908564

I don't think anyone other than the two of us wants to being going on about Corbyn anymore either.

purplepanda · 23-11-2022 12:49am

I'm currently looking at London area Electronic Engineering / Technician vacancies & have applied for many Level 5 / HND qualified positions. Some of the employers are trying to force wages down to £12 per hour or less which is so low a wage that you won't be paying back anything ever towards the student debt costs. One employer offered £10 p/h for someone with SMD soldering experience!

Another employer offered £15 p/h agreed an interview date with me & then failed to confirm the time of day, then messages back asking for a Zoom meeting 2 days after the original interview date. WTF? A total timewaster so I withdrew the application. That single vacancy has had 85 applications just on Indeed when I last checked.

I don't know about other sectors of the economy but Electronic Engineers & Technician jobs certainly don't need any overseas workers given visas due to shortage of applicants. Yet there have been news reports on BBC Radio 5 over the last 18 months saying there is a shortage of workers with engineering qualifications.

I usually work with shop-fitting & electrical / cable wiring contractors because the money is better & vacancies are easier to find. I'd rather do EE but not at any wage lower than £15 p/h.

It's perhaps very different in other trades & professions, but in this sector the employers are certainly addicted to cheaper overseas imported labour.

Podge_irl · 23-11-2022 7:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119908328#Comment_119908328

I'd be happier if Starmer struck a resolute note in favour of the EU but that means handing power to the Conservatives at the next election on the back of Labour seeking to undo Brexit.

I do not think that is true anymore. One very plausible criticism of Labour is that they have clearly not followed with the changing mood re Brexit at all. They are squandering an opportunity to set out a sensible stall on how to deal with it. The latest doubling down by Starmer on the UK's overreliance on immigration shows that they are still at an absolute loss about how to handle the issue. It is one area where they should decide on showing leadership rather than trying to divine what their prospective voters want.

ancapailldorcha · 23-11-2022 9:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119909804#Comment_119909804

Any sort of Brexit regret needs a strong foundation. It's one thing to say that more and more people are seeing it as a mistake. Quite another for them to want to go through the whole drama of another referendum and negotiations with the EU. Doubly so if the Tories remain as they are now. There's no point in any of it if they just decided to rip the UK out once again.

As for immigration, I've always seen free movement as a good thing. Many people don't sadly. Labour can't rely on Scotland for votes so this is the result. A lot of people, especially in post-industrial areas are particularly hostile to it. You can justifiably blame the media for that but it doesn't change this simple fact. If the worker shortages continue, this will hopefully change but for now it is what it is.

Podge_irl · 23-11-2022 9:58am

I never suggested anything about another referendum or rejoining. Labour’s response to brexit continues to be dreadful and they have no idea what they want to stand for. They make the exact same mistakes the brexiteers so in terms of ruling out everything necessary for the closer market deal they clearly know we need.

immigration has also retreated from being a primary concern of voters in the U.K. What Starmer should be doing is laying out what is necessary for a return to economic stability and growth and that means not obsessing about immigration. No one asked him to either - it’s an absurd self inflicted own goal.

The status quo does not work but all labour have managed to do is point this out without putting forth a single credible way to improve it. They also refuse to accept the reality of the trade offs required that we all know about. It is not a serious position. It is a massive black mark on them.

ancapailldorcha · 23-11-2022 10:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910004#Comment_119910004

That's the only reason to start talking about the EU though. Why else would you bring it up?

Immigration has lost its salience. We can see this in Farage's desperate floundering about the people in dinghies and Sunak's equally pathetic virtue signalling. That can easily change though. If it's an own goal, it's one that won't have any political consequences for him.

Labour have put forward credible ways to improve the status quo. This just gets ignored constantly. Starmer has stated that he wants to do away with the House of Lords for one thing. Gordon Brown is also carrying out a review and he's likely to follow through on at least some of its recommendations.

A Labour party review of the constitution by former prime minister Gordon Brown is set to recommend banning second jobs for MPs, beefing up the Electoral Commission and extending further devolution to both the English regions and the parliaments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

https://www.ft.com/content/4cbeeb1e-29b4-4294-af15-23ec4a7d4f8a

Podge_irl · 23-11-2022 10:12am

None of those things has an impact on the giant elephant in the room that is their relationship with the EU. And that is why I bring it up - positive notes about the EU to me mean embracing them not as the enemy and starting discuss cooperation and all that entails. Discussing what relationship the U.K. wants and needs with the EU and the trade offs to their beloved sovereignty that entails.

Labour have failed dismally to address this. In fact they have largely hamstrung themselves with ruling out elements that would leave them largely where the tories are stuck today. The Lords is not the main problem facing the U.K. (or anything close to it)

Also his immigration statements will have a consequence because he either follows through on them and causes significant damage or he fails to follow through on them and is breaking a policy. It was also an issue that simply wasn’t important and he’s giving it more oxygen. It was utterly idiotic to bring it up.

Labour still clearly live in fear of having a proper position on the UKs relationship with the EU and it is not a tenable position to maintain.

23-11-2022 10:18am

The penny is even dropping with the telegraph and I was surprised about the lack of pushback in the comments

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/11/23/incredibly-tories-have-squandered-another-year-brexit/#comment

Gerry T · 23-11-2022 10:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910048#Comment_119910048

Anyone a non paywalled version of this ?

pixelburp · 23-11-2022 10:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910068#Comment_119910068

Are you on desktop? Cos if you're quick with the Escape button on the keyboard you can stop the page loading before that PayWall takeover appears.

pixelburp · 23-11-2022 10:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910048#Comment_119910048

I clicked "Most liked" and this was the top comment:

Brexit is in the hands of a remainer parliament. Its like giving running shoes to an agoraphobic. They don't want to use it. Or have no clue. Remainers will of course blame Brexit but the blame lies with this woeful government.

This is the level of delusion, denial and malevolence in the heart of UK'ers still clinging to the myth of Brexit. This is why the main parties still dance around the subject - because there are voters who want Brexit, some kind of Brexit.

23-11-2022 10:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910068#Comment_119910068

Sorry, I thought there were a few free articles per month

23-11-2022 10:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910079#Comment_119910079

Yes, that is true. But what’s interesting (if you view telegraph comments as representative of Tory grass roots) that there is an acceptance now that Brexit has not worked (though the blame is apportioned toward its management rather than the concept) and that any brexit related aspirations are now dead (given that we’ll have a labour government in two years)

it means the UK is moving through the process. Only when it’s got past this acceptance stage can real consideration be given by the government of what the future relationship with the EU should look like

there are of course some for whom Brexit was the end rather than the means, but I think that that number will dwindle as the UK languishes

General British politics discussion thread

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