General British politics discussion thread

Tom Mann Centuria · 23-11-2022 10:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910068#Comment_119910068

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fbusiness%2F2022%2F11%2F23%2Fincredibly-tories-have-squandered-another-year-brexit%2F%23comment

Here you go.

Pete_Cavan · 23-11-2022 11:11am

Using another referendum as a reason for the UK to deviate from the current course is disingenuous at best. The Brexit referendum did not confirm what changes would or wouldn't respect the result of the referendum and just about everything was on the table immediately after the result.

Since then, just about every Brexit supporter has come out and said that "this is not the Brexit they voted for". As nearly all Brexit promoters have disowned this Brexit, there is clearly space to pivot without the need for another referendum.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Tories broaden their view on what constitutes Brexit before Labour does. Starmer seems to allow policy be dictated by focus groups which can become out of date very quickly. His stance has also given credence to Tory boasts that they "got Brexit done", when really he should have been ripping those boasts to shreds. Tories change direction like the wind, they could easily offer something different for the next election while Starmer is still flogging the "make Brexit work" dead horse.

23-11-2022 11:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910227#Comment_119910227

I think you’re right, but I don’t think that the British public will put into government a party whose position is that brexit just needs to be ‘done harder’. Not given what is likely to be a long lasting malaise in the British economy and lasting issues with cost of living and public services. I don’t think the public is stupid enough to do that. IMO, public opinion long term is far more likely to swing behind closer integration than greater isolation.

Gerry T · 23-11-2022 11:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910081#Comment_119910081

No problem, the "esc" key did the trick ! good to know @pixelburp

ancapailldorcha · 23-11-2022 11:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910027#Comment_119910027

What has Starmer said that fits the current governmental narrative of the EU being the enemy?

Podge_irl · 23-11-2022 12:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910354#Comment_119910354

Nothing. I have a higher bar for what I want from Labour then "being better than the current incarnation of the Tories".

He has produced not one policy idea to actually improve the UK's economic standing or their relationship with the EU. They have ruled out the return of freedom of movement and even gone further to suggest that the UK needs to get off its reliance on foreign labour as if its a drug habit. They make bland platitudes about "getting Brexit to work" which is the kind of nonsense that got the country into this mess in the first place. They are afraid of alienating parts of the support (which I think does a massive disservice to their support tbh) and thus won't actually put any concrete plans in place for what their view of the UK's relationship with the EU should be.

Can you tell me how a majority Labour government would approach the relationship with the EU? The WA agreement and NIP? Because these seem like important things to know.

Also choosing now, unprompted, to discuss about how the UK needs to get off its reliance on foreign workers and concentrate on British industry, which is nativist at the best of times, in the wake of bombings of asylum centres is deeply callous.

23-11-2022 12:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910464#Comment_119910464

To be fair to labour, no party in opposition, whatever their colour, lays out key policy positions, whether tax, brexit, social issues etc this far from an election. They don’t need to at this stage. Cameron was the same in opposition

Podge_irl · 23-11-2022 12:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910501#Comment_119910501

I will grant that, but only to a point. They have not even laid out the bare bones of a policy position. They are dangerously close to just agreeing with all of May's original red lines, saying they'll make it work and ending up back in the same inexorable position that the Tories are in now.

In the face of 60%+ of people saying Brexit was a mistake they can't even suggest closer alignment with Europe.

I applaud the suggestions on voting reform and Lords reform. But they are absolutely not the single most pressing issue facing the UK right now.

breezy1985 · 23-11-2022 12:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910004#Comment_119910004

If Labour start talking about easing immigration or allowing freedom of movement then immigration will very quickly be the primary concern again when the tabloids make it so.

They are being vague so far but why wouldn't you be when you are way ahead in polls and it's 2 years to an election. It does absolutely nothing to be going into detail right now.

Podge_irl · 23-11-2022 12:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910668#Comment_119910668

Saying they won't bring in freedom of movement or align with EU standards but will improve trade agreements with the EU also makes them seem like fantasists. Its not possible and they will either need to renege on what they are currently saying completely or waste years failing to procure anything.

It is not serious politics or leadership.

breezy1985 · 23-11-2022 1:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910698#Comment_119910698

I hadn't heard them say they will not align with the EU. All I heard was no return to SM or FoM which isn't the same.

rock22 · 23-11-2022 1:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910763#Comment_119910763

Do you think they will agree to align with the EU but will not want to re-enter the SM? If so, how does this help with either the economy or with EU/UK relationships?

ancapailldorcha · 23-11-2022 1:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910464#Comment_119910464

It's not nonsense. The UK has a notorious productivity issue and has done for a long time. It's lagged behind Germany, France and the USA for so long it's become normalised. Third level education costs a fortune after the trebling of fees by the coalition government a decade ago.

We won't know what Labour's actual policy will be until a manifesto is released. However, if you honestly think Starmer is as bad as Suella Braverman et al, there's no point in continuing this.

breezy1985 · 23-11-2022 1:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910816#Comment_119910816

I think secretly they want to re-enter the SM but can't because the phrase "re-enter the single market" is toxic in England despite what people here think.

Alignment makes trade a lot easier just look at NI currently. On UK/EU relations all you have to do is stop pretending the NIP is a problem, the EU are the enemy and converse like adults. Relations will be massively improved by simple having normal politicians in charge again.

ancapailldorcha · 23-11-2022 1:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910892#Comment_119910892

Exactly.

We've just had objective proof that sovereignty is a lie. The future is the single market and customs union, ideally EU membership once the Tory party grows out of this grubby little anti-woke and racist crusade it's mired itself in.

I think Starmer would happily rejoin the EU tomorrow if it were an option. It isn't and he needs English votes. Scotland has been won over by the SNP. Why would they go back to a Unionist party now? Wales, the midlands, the north and the cities aren't enough to win. They just aren't. Letting the perfect be the enemy of the good will just mean that the Tories get a fourth term.

Sam Russell · 23-11-2022 1:52pm

The SNP will probably win all the seats in Scotland. Labour may need to make a deal with them but that can wait till the votes are counted.

Meanwhile Labour must win back the Red Wall and win the Blue wall, and they need different policies for each, and the fudge needs to speak to both parts.

ancapailldorcha · 23-11-2022 1:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910934#Comment_119910934

Naomi Smith of Best for Britain, a campaigning group has said that the Red Wall collapsed some time ago. The Blue Wall is trickier, particularly with the Lib Dems being a more tolerable party to many in the Home Counties. That risks slipping the vote but maybe a Davey-Starmer pact is possible similar to Blair's pact with Paddy Ashdown.

Podge_irl · 23-11-2022 2:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910831#Comment_119910831

I don’t. I think that’s an utterly pathetic bar to set.

23-11-2022 2:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910998#Comment_119910998

Indeed. It’s a pathetically low bar

Seth Brundle · 23-11-2022 2:09pm

It is lovely to watch the vile Braverman being led into a corner with this...

https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1595374559523471368?t=8TuX4lMSU2joO9BL4HMJQQ&s=19

breezy1985 · 23-11-2022 2:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910934#Comment_119910934

On current polling Labour won't need the SNP but it's a long way to the next election.

As always its the Tories more likely to need a coalition if they can even get that close (obviously no one will work with them anyway)

ancapailldorcha · 23-11-2022 2:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119911019#Comment_119911019

It is until you realise that this doesn't make one bit of difference whatsoever.

Seth Brundle · 23-11-2022 2:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119911137#Comment_119911137

Oh I'm not imagining that she will change but it it good to point out to her that her (and her predecessor) have created environment that unwelcoming to those who seek help

Ahwell · 23-11-2022 3:05pm

Suella Braverman trying and failing to explain the fallacy of the "safe and legal routes" for asylum seekers to enter the UK...

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1595387725703675906

Interesting that it was a Tory MP exposing how unsuited she is to any role in government, especially her current one.

23-11-2022 3:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119911287#Comment_119911287

Admitting also that if you ask for asylum upon arriving in a small boat, you become a legal asylum seeker.

flatty · 23-11-2022 3:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119906784#Comment_119906784

Of course there is. The erg are the last rump of a dying breed. If the EU holds, then at some point the UK will rejoin

breezy1985 · 23-11-2022 3:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119911367#Comment_119911367

"At some point" is way beyond the next election.

23-11-2022 3:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119911464#Comment_119911464

I would not be surprised if the election after this next one is fought in a large part over the UK’s relationship with Europe. I don’t think rejoining will ever happen, as the EU would likely demand adoption of the Euro, but definitely single market etc will be back in the debate

the speed at which brexit (and it’s failure) has shifted from being a largely taboo subject to being openly discussed, along with potential responses, is remarkable. Really only since the mini-budget. Probably because the narrative has shifted quickly from fairytale economics to realism, and that realism necessitates engaging properly, for the first time, with what have been the brexit outcomes

Tom Mann Centuria · 23-11-2022 4:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910998#Comment_119910998

It's does get slightly tedious having to refute things you never suggested.

serfboard · 23-11-2022 4:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119910126#Comment_119910126

"Only when it’s got past this acceptance stage"

Led me to thinking - what are the five stages of grief for Brexiteers? Denial, depression, anger, acceptance and bargaining (with the EU)?

General British politics discussion thread

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