"Green" policies are destroying this country

25-11-2022 12:03pm

The financial and technical agreements for the Celtic Interconnector between Ireland and France have been signed off. Should be operational by 2026

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/b4f97-conclusion-of-the-celtic-interconnector-agreements-between-france-and-ireland/

The Taoiseach Micheál Martin, the French Minister for Energy Transition Agnès Pannier-Runacher and Irish Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications Eamon Ryan welcome agreements on the Celtic Interconnector linking Ireland and France

The total cost of the project is €1.623 billion

The electric interconnector has a capacity of 700MW, covers a distance of 575km and will enhance Ireland's security of energy supply and renewable energy imports

RTE news : Celtic Interconnector will lead to lower prices - Ryan

http://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/1125/1338174-ireland-france-interconnector/

JRant · 25-11-2022 12:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919391#Comment_119919391

We'd be better served fast tracking the building those new gas plants IMO. An interconnector looks great on paper but only when there's spare capacity.

ps200306 · 25-11-2022 12:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919391#Comment_119919391

"will enhance Ireland's security of energy supply and renewable energy imports"

Are they going to label the individual electrons coming across the interconnector or just colour them green?

He [Foley, Eirgrid chief] said that this was arguably "the most important Irish infrastructure project for this decade" and it will restore Ireland's connection with European electricity system and marketplace, building 10,000 megawatts of new renewable energy in the next ten years to be exported through France, and makes the business cases for renewables".

I know Green thinking verges on the magical, but exporting 10,000 MW through a 700 MW interconnector sounds a tad impossible?

Not to worry, we have a consultation open about building additional interconnectors. The download from that link confirms that offshore wind is expected to cost about €2.5 billion per GW. Based on the cost of the Celtic interconnector should we also anticipate about €2 billion per GW of interconnector capacity? We're planning to build 30 GW of offshore wind, of which half will be devoted to hydrogen generation, with the rest devoted to our own demand needs and exports. So let's say that in order for excess windpower to not be worthless when the wind is blowing, we'll need maybe 10 GW of export capacity. PEM electrolysers are about €1.5 billion per GW.

Let's see ... quick tot ... that'll be €80 billion for construction of offshore wind, €20 billion for interconnectors, €25 billion for electrolysers, unknown amounts for hydrogen storage, distribution, and power conversion. Would €200 billion cover it? Maybe €150 billion at a Black Friday sale? And this is all to satisfy 5 or 6 GW of actual average demand. Would be nice if the Greenies could be bothered to come up with their own numbers, but does €30 billion per GW of actual demand served sound about right? Might there be cheaper sources of low-carbon power? 'Cos this one sounds fatal to the economy.

JRant · 25-11-2022 1:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919655#Comment_119919655

It's become quite obvious that many are willing to bankrupt not just Ireland but the EU in the drive for net zero. All the while China are building new coal plants at a rate that dwarfs the EUs current emissions.

Somebody please make it make sense because from what I can see it's economic suicide on a scale we've never witnessed before.

KildareP · 25-11-2022 1:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919367#Comment_119919367

A different opinion? You come in, dump a load of links without any analysis, selectively respond to those who challenge your posts, and when eventually pushed for an answer cop out by saying you don't want to get stuck in a loop, that's if you don't respond with a simple "lol".

It's also bizarre that you put great effort into finding lots of facts and figures to portray something you don't agree with in a negative light, but never once able to compare them against equivalent facts and figures for the wonderful alternatives you portray. Surely these wonderful alternatives facts and figures should blow anything else out of the water if they are so great and you'd be more than happy to shout about them from the rooftops?

But no, apparently these wonderful alternatives can't be sold on merit alone, it relies almost exclusively on putting everything else around them down in order to make them appear the least worst option.

charlie14 · 25-11-2022 1:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119918602#Comment_119918602

Lol. What is very obvious is that these "loops" of yours have now become your latest attempts at avoiding inconvenient facts and questions.

It`s transparent and disingenuous, but quite entertaining as well.

25-11-2022 2:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919735#Comment_119919735

when eventually pushed for an answer cop out by saying you don't want to get stuck in a loop

Just on that, I didn't spend more time with that poster as they misunderstand one of the core fundamentals of their entire argument which renders the rest of their content redundant.

It was pointed out to no avail, what can I do 🤷‍♂️

charlie14 · 25-11-2022 2:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919655#Comment_119919655

I cannot see even the crazy figure of €150 Bn coming anywhere close for offshore. That €80 Bn.is based on U.K.average costs and from our latest RESS strike price for onshore we do not do average costs. Especially when it comes to construction. The country is litter with examples of that. Hornsea 1 cost at least £4.2 Bn for 1.2 Gigawatts. That is £3.5 Bn (€4.08) per Gigawatt. For 30 Gigawatts that is €122 Bn. rather than €80 Bn. But it does not stop even there. After 25 years (and in the environment those turbines are going into, they will be in very much rag order by then imo.) more construction costs required. 3 such refits would be required for this offshore part of the plan during the lifespan of a nuclear plant.

But even ignoring what those refits would cost, add in the onshore construction cost for hydrogen storage and distribution plus the cost of hydrogen production and I doubt there would be much change from €200 Bn. And there is where the real kick in the teeth for consumers comes in. With the 50/50 split between domestic supply and hydrogen, whatever the strike price might be, the consumer will be paying double that plus the hydrogen production, storage and distribution costs on top.

Where Foley the Eirgrid chief is getting his exports from is a mystery. Again based on the U.K. average rolling capacity for offshore that 30 Gigawatts would deliver 12.6 Gigawatts in total. 6.3 Gigawatts for domestic supply, 6.3 Gigawatts for hydrogen production. Other than him relying on a green mathematician for his figures (and lets be honest, mathematics is not one of their strong points) where this export figure is coming from seems very dodgy. He doesn`t appear to have a plumber employed either. If he had he would have been told squeezing 10,000 MW down a 700 MW interconnector was like trying to get a 6" sh1t down a 4" sewage pipe.

paddyisreal · 25-11-2022 2:56pm

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/eamon-ryans-bid-to-reduce-dependence-on-cars-is-pipe-dream-that-ignores-the-reality-of-family-life-motor-industry-chief-claims-42172043.html

Lol, poor old Eamon doesn't know if he's coming or going. We should all drive ev actually hold on we should all cycle or walk . It reminds me of the greens promoting diesel cars a few years back, just watch them roll back on EVs also on the next while. The nissan fella is right on one thing Eamon Ryan hasn't a clue if he thinks less cars are going to be needed in the future

The Real President Trump · 25-11-2022 3:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119917247#Comment_119917247

Because a simple fact like barrel lifting costs which is relevant to future energy sources, you misrepresented this and when pointed out did neither acknowledge or apologise for which is exactly what the green ideologues do

Nope, nope you don't get to do that, if you talk of taxes on one side there must be a dividend on the otherside otherwise it's just collective punishment and impoverishment by ideological (religious) zealots

If you're going to advocate for particular (green) policies you have to show they pay off.

Here I'll do your job for ya. Hydroelectric and Geothermal power are both clean and infinitely renewable with no Co2 emissions, they have heavy upfront costs but then provide cheap power for the people. They can do base load, be dispatchable and be peaking plant.

People will not listen to you if you dump rationality when logical / financial / time / resources fallacies are pointed out to you, this goes for all points in all debates and movements,

I'll give you an example from the o&g side, we have proven resources of 10,000 years supply of Natural Gas but it's on Titan, all that gas sounds awesome but the practicalities of it are nonsensical

25-11-2022 3:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119920187#Comment_119920187

according to influential Nissan Ireland chief, James McCarthy

Car salesman says people need cars, what a shocker

Meanwhile whats actually going to happen is also detailed in the article

“However, while a rapid electrification of our existing vehicle fleet is both necessary and essential, alone it is insufficient. The move to a zero emissions fleet is just one part of a more fundamental and ongoing change that is required across the entire transport sector, and it is clear that we cannot expect to rely on technological solutions alone to solve our emissions problems.”

“As was highlighted in a recent OECD study, “Redesigning Ireland’s Transport for Net Zero”, commissioned by the Climate Change Advisory Council - a perceived over-reliance on electric vehicles to meet emissions reduction targets risks locking in further high levels of car-dependency and car-centric systems. The OECD report also considered the Irish transport system through a “well-being lens”, finding that the existing Irish transport system fosters growing car use and increased greenhouse emissions by design – and therefore, can diminish public wellbeing.”

“This report recommends that our EV strategy be embedded within a wider framework focused on increasing ‘sustainable accessibility’, citing the reallocation of road space for sustainable modes, the mainstreaming of on-demand shared services, and communication strategies that question engrained mind-sets around car-use as ‘highly transformative’ mitigation measures.

Furze99 · 25-11-2022 3:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119920187#Comment_119920187

Well the Motor Industry would say that, wouldn't they??

Ryan is right insofar as city dwelling goes, policy should be towards public transport, cycling and walking with significant disincentives for car ownership. Ditto for international travel. People are going to have to adjust their lifestyles back a few decades when foreign holidays and plane flights were rare. Too bad for all the up and coming young city Greens, their wings and expectations must be clipped.

It's how rural Ireland will be dealt with that will be telling. It's clearly much more troublesome to provide decent public transport and whilst cycling & walking are fine for local trips, they don't cut the mustard for a lot of daily rural life.

25-11-2022 3:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119920217#Comment_119920217

if you talk of taxes on one side there must be a dividend on the otherside otherwise it's just collective punishment and impoverishment by ideological (religious) zealots

If you're going to advocate for particular (green) policies you have to show they pay off.

You said I should show how they will be used, I posted the link to the file showing how they will be used and you come back saying I should show how they will be used. Did you want something else other than the govt document which answers your question? The horse and water analogy comes to mind

Anyway, the answer you are looking for has been provided

KildareP · 25-11-2022 3:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119920122#Comment_119920122

This has been your go to response to several different posters on several different occasions throughout this thread.

?Cee?view · 25-11-2022 3:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119920078#Comment_119920078

That's just not these pages. That appears to be Ryan's and the Green's policy.

25-11-2022 3:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119920282#Comment_119920282

Well, yeah, case in point one lad going on about the financial viability of a project versus the actual requirement being for a financially viable company to be over the project. Not understanding the difference between the two results in loops of nonsensical ramblings which have no relation to the legislated requirements.

Thankfully climate change science is making its way into our education system so this issue should lessen over time as people become more educated on the topic

spaceHopper · 25-11-2022 3:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919643#Comment_119919643

It's part of a bigger picture, if we have spare wind generation we can sell it, that funds more wind turbines that means that when there is less with we might still have enough for here. Also we can import power from it when we need it. They'll probably lay data comms along side it too.

spaceHopper · 25-11-2022 3:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119920351#Comment_119920351

It's got nothing to do with LNG or H. We have spare power we can sell it, we need power we can import it. If we have H plants great but is it not better to part of a bigger grid. If we can always sell surplice power then it becomes more cost effective to build wind generation here.

Furze99 · 25-11-2022 3:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119920308#Comment_119920308

Surely is - same for the holy grail of battery storage etc

Batteries = good.

Lithium mining = bad.

Lithium mining outside Europe = good.

Full of hypocrites when it comes to green technology.

Windfarms = good

Windfarms near Dublin = (lets check with voters) BAD

25-11-2022 3:51pm

Speaking of hydrogen, it looks like its about to see a surge in growth as countries all around the world start setting up hydrogen hubs

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/The-World-Is-Racing-To-Ramp-Up-Green-Hydrogen-Production.html

KildareP · 25-11-2022 3:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119920187#Comment_119920187

From the article:

“Our priority must be to ensure that these cars are cleaner, electrified vehicles.”

[...]

He questions why Mr Ryan is proposing another u-turn on EVs plans at a time when other countries are setting higher targets because they see them as key to reducing harmful emissions.

Sounds good. But not so apparently?

“However, while a rapid electrification of our existing vehicle fleet is both necessary and essential, alone it is insufficient. The move to a zero emissions fleet is just one part of a more fundamental and ongoing change that is required across the entire transport sector, and it is clear that we cannot expect to rely on technological solutions alone to solve our emissions problems.”

OK...............

a perceived over-reliance on electric vehicles to meet emissions reduction targets risks locking in further high levels of car-dependency and car-centric systems. The OECD report also considered the Irish transport system through a “well-being lens”, finding that the existing Irish transport system fosters growing car use and increased greenhouse emissions by design – and therefore, can diminish public wellbeing.

Hang on...

I thought the whole point of going electric was because we could (eventually) generate the electricity from carbon and emission free, renewable sources like wind, solar and hydrogen storage. That these would easily replace our existing electrical grid. That we'd have so much of it, in fact, it would be the carbon free version of oil and gas. Why would it increase harmful emissions if we're going to be producing emission free energy to feed said vehicles?

Have they just possibly admitted for the first time above that there isn't a hope in hell renewable generation can actually deliver what we've been told it would? Far from there being so much renewable energy coming from all these offshore windfarms we could be exporting gigawatts of it down all these wonderful interconnectors, with hydrogen storage produced in abundance. Wouldn't know what to do with all this clean energy!

Nope going 100% renewable on the grid has to happen in conjunction with significant reduction in our overall energy usage if we are to meet our targets, i.e. the whole solar/wind/hydrogen energy rush isn't going to be the panacea they've been trying to sell it as!

spaceHopper · 25-11-2022 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119920394#Comment_119920394

Pipes, there is one to England, what's stopping us build more. By the way 30,000mw is 30 Watts, a few light bulbs. 30,000MW is 30GW when we have demand for 6G peak at the moment. We have a 500MW one to the UK with a second 500MW planned, add in this 700MW and we are 1.7GW which is a good chunk of our needs.

25-11-2022 4:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119920457#Comment_119920457

The OECD report was more saying that replacing 1 million ICE's with 1 million EV's was just stupid when we should be looking to get as many out of cars as possible by instead promoting PT & AT options which would have a far greater societal benefit

You can view the OECD report at the link below

https://www.oecd.org/publications/redesigning-ireland-s-transport-for-net-zero-b798a4c1-en.htm

From the OECD site (bolding mine)

Current mobility patterns in Ireland are incompatible with the country’s target to halve emissions in the transport sector by 2030. While important, electrification and fuel efficiency improvements in vehicles are insufficient to meet Ireland’s ambitious target: large behavioural change in the direction of sustainable modes and travel reductions are needed. Such changes will only be possible if policies can shift Irish transport systems away from car dependency. Building on the OECD process “Systems Innovation for Net Zero” and extensive consultation with Irish stakeholders, this report assesses the potential of implemented and planned Irish policies to transform car-dependent systems. It identifies transformative policies that can help Ireland transition to sustainable transport systems that work for people and the planet. It also provides recommendations to scale up such transformative policies and refocus the electrification strategy so that it fosters, rather than hinders, transformational change.

Further review of the OECD report

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-40991351.html

spaceHopper · 25-11-2022 4:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119920548#Comment_119920548

You've lost me, where is the 30000 demand coming from? We currently use about 6000MW. If we have more interconnectors up to 3000MW then we would be in much better shape.

JRant · 25-11-2022 4:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119920342#Comment_119920342

If only that were true. The ability to export more power just means more money in the pockets of investors or energy retailers. Any revenue gained won't be used directly to fund more turbines or interconnectors. Standing charges will have to increase dramatically to fund the electrical infrastructure upgrades required to even get the power from the turbines to the south of the country. New 400kV lines throughout will be required to minimize losses and after seeing the fiasco that was Grid West best if luck with that.

Don't get me wrong, it sounds great and I'm sure Eirgrid have some lovely PowerPoints but they won't be paying for this, we will. Considering the poor job they've done over the past decade in proper planning for the grid I'll take whatever they say with a pinch of salt.

JRant · 25-11-2022 5:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119920625#Comment_119920625

We can store all the hydrogen in yet to be developed storage facilities that don't even exist yet. Spherical storage is best to reduce boil off but nobody has ever stored the amount we are talking about here.

Honestly, Eirgrid and the ESB sometimes forget who they are supposed to be working for. Their remit should be to provide as cheap as possible power with a high availability. The carbon offset by replacing Moneypoint and the other oil plants with CCGT would dwarf almost anything else I've seen proposed and would cost a fraction of the money.

The Real President Trump · 25-11-2022 5:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119920279#Comment_119920279

Yes you haven't answered where the dividend that contrasts the taxes comes from

You've just provided a document about how the taxes will be spent

That should be a very easy answer to give.

Here I'll do your job again, the aluminium smelters in Iceland use geothermal power and then supply hot water for district heating. The kwh cost of delivered heat is like 2c for the people on that system, even before the price increases (10ish cent now) here a unit of gas was 5c, that's a green dividend

25-11-2022 5:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119920861#Comment_119920861

That the answer does not meet your criteria is not my issue. I've given you an answer, don't like it, meh

charlie14 · 25-11-2022 6:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119920322#Comment_119920322

You really do post the most inane nonsense.

How can anyone judge the financial viability of a company responsible for a project when they do not know what the project will cost ?

I would have thought by this stage even you would realise that these projects are State guaranteed. I.E. by you, me and every other consumer in the country who would be paying the end price. There is no financial viability issue for the private companies building these projects.

The financial viability issue is in relation to the State and our economy. Again you, me and every other consumer, and I have yet to see anyone coming up with an answer as to how an even initial cost of anywhere between €150 Bn and €200 Bn for just electricity infrastructure alone for a country with 5 million of a population being added to a national debt of €240 Bn. is financially viable in any universe.

If that is an example of the climate change education system that is making it`s way into our education system then God help the younger generation where mathematics and logic will be " sure whatever you think yourself will be grand"

charlie14 · 25-11-2022 6:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119920612#Comment_119920612

The plan is for 30 Gigawatt nameplate capacity for offshore wind. Based on the U.K. actual rolling capacity that equates to around 12.6 Gigawatt generated. That is to be split 50/50. Half for domestic supply (6.3 Gigawatts) and the other 6.3 Gigawatts for hydrogen to compensate for when renewables are not providing the generation needed.

"Green" policies are destroying this country

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