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Are we getting value for money from our state institutions (RTE, civil service ect)?

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2

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    #32
    eggy81
    Registered Users Posts: 2,067 ✭✭✭eggy81


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915800#Comment_119915800

    What are you lolling at. You literally never agree with any fault anyone finds with anything related to public service here. It’s like nothing can ever be improved upon.



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    #33
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 40,229 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119917340#Comment_119917340

    The conspiracy theories.

    Considering this whole thread is based on ones figments, it's fairly tough to improve on a fantasy.



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    #34
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 14,292 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Isn't the hiring process completely transparent in the irish public sector?

    How would you get into a government department from knowing people?



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    #35
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    The Irish Examiner has learnt that HSE staff in the mid-west region have expressed concern at how people who were taken on as temporary community welfare officers (CWOs) last year outside normal recruitment procedures were given new positions as clerical officers last month.

    It is understood at least three people, who are closely related to long-serving HSE staff, have got jobs through this process.

    “There is incredible bad feeling among staff at the moment. Morale in the HSE Mid-West region has hit rock bottom over this,” said one employee who wished to remain anonymous.

    Community welfare officers, who are in the process of switching employment from the HSE to the Department of Social Protection as part of major reform of social services, feel particularly angered over the issue as they were not permitted to apply for the vacancies at clerical officer level.

    “Some long-serving permanent staff would have liked the opportunity to relocate to another area in order to stay within the employment of the HSE but were not allowed to do so,” said another HSE worker.

    Many existing HSE staff were incensed last summer after it emerged that temporary vacancies which arose in the HSE in Limerick and Cork were largely filled by spouses, children and friends of senior HSE employees without such positions being advertised publicly.

    Like this. I wont list the names of the workers given the jobs but if you check they're still there. Neither have the procedures changed.



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    #36
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119916752#Comment_119916752

    I think you're coming from a different point of view, thereby missing the central thesis of my argument. First of all do we agree that public services suffer from employees giving family members jobs as priority over the general public?



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    #37
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 14,292 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919061#Comment_119919061

    there is no way you can offer family members jobs in the public service - are you actually being serious?



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    #38
    DellyBelly
    Registered Users Posts: 3,071 ✭✭✭DellyBelly


    In answer to your question I would yes we are....



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    #39
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919142#Comment_119919142

    Hmm not sure where you're getting that from. Let's rephrase. Do you think someone interviewing a family member such as a son or daughter and awarding them a position in public service has chosen the best candidate?

    Let's use real world examples. What are the chances of the sons and daughters in the extract below all being the best person for the job? Do you think that me disagreeing with this story below means that I think no relatives should work in the same organization. No, what I think shouldn't happen is family members being involved in the hiring process of other family members. That is fair no?

    Three weeks ago, this newspaper revealed that the children of four managers in a Cork office and three children of managers in Limerick were appointed to non-advertised positions despite a national moratorium on recruitment.

    This weekend, the Sunday Independent has learned the children of another three senior managers in Dublin were appointed to clerical grade-three positions on a temporary basis to aid in the administration of the Back to School Scheme. However, these people are still in their posts over a year later.

    The individuals involved in the Dublin office are: Eoin Tighe, son of regional manager Rita Tighe; Grace Whittle, daughter of superintendent Joseph Whittle; and Mark Mulvihill, son of senior manager Noel Mulvihill.



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    #40
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 40,229 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919198#Comment_119919198

    Article from 2010?

    What exactly are you up to here? The forum is current affairs.

    😕



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    #41
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919218#Comment_119919218

    Google is your friend here. 2022.


    Irish Rail has settled a series of claims with a former procurement manager for an undisclosed sum after she made allegations of nepotism and bullying at the State company.

    Suzanne Murphy claimed she was passed over for a permanent role despite being promised one at interview at a time when she said two family members of senior company staff with less experience than her were given permanent contracts.



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    #42
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    And thesis from the National College Of Ireland, School of Business. 2022.

    The aim of this study is to determine the existence of nepotism in Ireland today and it also looks to investigate whether it is an ethical practice or not. To achieve this study a survey consisting of fifteen questions relating to nepotism was issued as a data collecting method. They survey was distributed to a small population of seventy-two people whereby all of the responses were used and analysed to contribute to this study. As this research is both quantitative and qualitative in nature, one interview was also conducted in order to gain a better overview of the overall research topic. The results of the research revealed that nepotism does in fact still exist within Ireland, but the hypothesis of whether it is ethical remains unproven due to the interpretive nature of this study.




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    #43
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 40,229 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919271#Comment_119919271

    Google is a search engine.

    That case relates to some unfounded claims by a lady which turns out had nothing to do with her division.

    Under cross-examination by Ms Burke, Ms Murphy accepted that this colleague did not report to the same line manager in procurement as she did.

    “Mr Conlon could not have discriminated against you by promoting [the colleague],” Ms Burke said.

    The company didn't give her fair procedure in her termination, so they paid up.

    Are you just furiously googling Nepotism to try and back fill you claims?



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    #44
    Dodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,288 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    I see people are mixing up civil service, semi state companies and private companies that at one time might have been one of the others again. Easy enough to do I suppose

    FWIW the rules relating to recruitment in the civil service and general public service (local authorities etc) are very strict. There’s exams, interviews (with multiple people) and the higher up you go further rounds such as presentations, job simulation etc etc. panels are formed and people assigned off that

    You can argue that has its own issues but it certainly removes all the nod and wink stuff that some here are talking about and there’s no way a family member would be allowed interview another.

    For the record, former public servant, now in the private sector



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    #45
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919339#Comment_119919339

    B you have said on this forum that you have no problem with this sort of nepotism. So Why are you still talking and asking me to provide evidence of something you have no problem with?



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    #46
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919344#Comment_119919344

    Indeed I did mention I have a relative in the civil service. He is generally happy there but there is relatives of higher ups there causing problems. Do you think what happened in the HSE case I linked is still going on?



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    #47
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 40,229 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919361#Comment_119919361

    What Nepotism? There was unfounded claims of Nepotism from a lady who clearly was not able to her job for various reasons.

    And what I actually said was.

    I see absolutely no problem with hiring family members if they are qualified and able for the job and got it appropriately.



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    #48
    Dodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,288 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    No idea about the HSE. Suggest you try and narrow your focus there if you believe it’s happening. Can only speak to the broader civil and public service as I’ve been involved in recruitment there (both sides) and have close family who still work there. Creating panels has issues, but nepotism isn’t one of them

    In general, nepotism exists far more in private sector than public sector. Surely everyone can agree on that?



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    #49
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    It depends on the country. I live in Germany and in the private sector (and especially the public sector) you declare a conflict of interest if in a recruitment position where a family member is applying. Does this happen in the public sector in Ireland?

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919441#Comment_119919441




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    #50
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919429#Comment_119919429

    Jesus B just read this thesis.

    The aim of this study is to determine the existence of nepotism in Ireland today and it also looks to investigate whether it is an ethical practice or not. To achieve this study a survey consisting of fifteen questions relating to nepotism was issued as a data collecting method. They survey was distributed to a small population of seventy-two people whereby all of the responses were used and analysed to contribute to this study. As this research is both quantitative and qualitative in nature, one interview was also conducted in order to gain a better overview of the overall research topic. The results of the research revealed that nepotism does in fact still exist within Ireland, but the hypothesis of whether it is ethical remains unproven due to the interpretive nature of this study.




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    #51
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,400 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    The nepotism that I encountered in the PS mainly related to student jobs - third level students (who just happened to be children of senior staff members) would get these jobs without any advertising or interviews. The attitude was that it was ok because they were "only summer jobs". Yet these people clearly benefitted, student jobs were paid quite generously at the time and also these students gained experience that was denied to others. Some ended up getting permanent jobs after graduation with the experience probably helping.

    This stopped when the financial crisis hit as students were no longer taken on or were not paid. If cheap labour was needed, Jobbridge interns were used.

    In relation to permanent jobs, anyone who thinks that the interview board system in the PS can't be abused is naïve. Frist of all, a lot of the recruitment in the PS does not go through the public appointments service. Secondly, "independent" interview boards can be leaned on to favour a preferred candidate. Ireland is also a small country where a lot of people know each other. I'd say favouritism and lack of objectivity is more of an issue these days than blatant nepotism - things are somewhat more transparent now and it's probably a lot harder to get away with nepotism these days. But if people could get away with it they would do it. It is still regarded a a perk of a PS job by many and they bemoan the increased transparency

    A recent example of nepotism in the Irish PS was the Coombe hospital distribution of Covid vaccines to family members of staff with plenty of clowns on this website justifying it with "would you rather the vaccines went in the bin" nonsense.



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    #52
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 40,229 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919629#Comment_119919629

    The results of the research revealed that nepotism does in fact still exist within Ireland

    Why would I need to read a thesis?

    We all know it exists.

    That student must have been fair struggling for ideas.

    Also since you stated.

    I actually live in Germany now

    What's this "Are we getting value for money" business, surely at the least you mean "Are ye getting value for money".



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    #53
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119916603#Comment_119916603

    as a civil servant id say this is all fair observation



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    #54
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919279#Comment_119919279

    does this state in public sector only or am i missing that vital detail



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    #55
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119919738#Comment_119919738

    Excellent post. I had forgotten the summer jobs thing. Many if not most of the recipients got it through an aunty while poorer students struggled.

    Something I neglected to say is the majority of those in the PS work extremely hard. I worked for the HSE too. I am not tarring everyone with the same brush by describing the issues within the organization. What people don't realise is that many in the PS despise these types of things too.

    I remember posting about the problems with nepotism based vaccine delivery in the Coombe and you had some idiots here defending it. They often stated that we were tarring all of the hard workers in the HSE with the same brush. What they forget is that ordinary PS workers are disgusted by this behavior.

    The gaurds used to be bad for this type of thing too but as far as I'm aware things have improved.



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    #56
    L.Ball
    Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭L.Ball


    "That's not my job nothing to do with me", should be over the door of every public service building so you know what you're walking into.



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    #57
    JayRoc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭JayRoc


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119924189#Comment_119924189

    I've never heard a nurse or fireman say that. Maybe you mean "civil service" but I would still disagree.



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    #58
    L.Ball
    Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭L.Ball


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119924826#Comment_119924826

    Multiple nurses have said it to me over the past year.



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    #59
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users Posts: 9,411 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I saw this story and thought of this thread.

    Iarnród Éireann manager paid €121k 'for doing nothing' (rte.ie)

    Iarnród Éireann manager paid €121,000 'for doing nothing', WRC hears

    A finance manager at Iarnród Éireann has said his duties were "hacked down to nothing" after he made a protected disclosure nine years ago.

    Dermot Alastair Mills said that he now spends most of his working week in a €121,000-a-year job reading newspapers, eating sandwiches and going for long walks.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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    #60
    NSAman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,438 ✭✭✭NSAman


    Of course, there is waste in the CS and also in Private industry.

    The difference is that in Private Industry people tend to be let go, in the CS/Semi-State arena, not so much.

    I don't like pitting people against each other, everyone has a job to do. There are differing views on what "hard" work is.

    I do have some stories from a good friend who went to work for a semi state from private and were absolutely shocked at how little was being done, but that isn't the norm. He left through boredom.

    It is all down to the person. I couldn't work in an environment where I am not contributing and earning my keep, I like to achieve. Others (even in my own business) do not have that drive/work ethic. That's fine but if you start not doing your job, you won't be working with us.

    I'm sure the CS/Semi-States have many people that need to be let go, but unions make this process almost impossible.



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    #61
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 21,051 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119915835#Comment_119915835

    i met an absolute tool of a revenue staffer at a wedding, it was apparent to me that he'd one of the types that gets caught curiously looking up womens accounts

    "how do you spot a revenue staffer at a wedding ?? He'll tell you "



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