Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Rent rises - what can the Gov do about it?

  • 22-11-2022 11:47am
    #1
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Reports by Daft.ie that rents continue to rise ever faster.

    The Gov appear to be unable to do anything much to force them down - or even stop them rising.

    The whole notion of 'rent pressure zones' was ill conceived from the start. Why try to stop rent rises by allowing them to rise by 4% a year. Surely it would be wiser to stop all rent rises in the pressure zones - or am I missing something.

    Another problem is evicting tenants for reasons other than non-payment of the rent or failing to comply with reasonable terms of the lease (like antisocial behaviour or causing nuisance or damage). Landlords should be able to evict the non-payers within weeks rather than the months or years currently, but that is another matter. The National Tenancy Register Board need more resources and more teeth, such that it can set rents, eject non-payers, bring order to landlord/tenant disputes etc.

    But above all, the Gov needs to build many more houses and apartments. Buying off the market is self-defeating in itself. Allowing whole estates to be bought by single entities prevents the market operating as it should. The planning system needs much needed reform, and faster decisions, with the judicial revue treated with expeditious speed so that construction is not delayed.

    We all know the solutions - they just do not happen. Political parties urging more houses, but politicians objecting to developments in their own constituencies.

    The long finger just gets longer by the day.



«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,339 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    The current system penalises the landlords who weren't taking the piss in the first place and has been doing so for so long that they're giving up up and cashing out. At the same time, any new to the rental market property can charge top dollar.

    The below market rent units are not being advertised between tenants, they're being filled by word of mouth or from waiting lists kept by letting agents, why would you set yourself up to be inundated with calls and emails when you could cherry pick from a handful of potential tenants? This further emboldened the new entrants to charge top dollar as the archaic system requires 3 advertised properties as reference for the market rent and cheaper ones are not being advertised.

    With the lower priced stock disappearing and all new stock priced to the top of the market, is it any wonder that average rents are rising way ahead of maximum permitted rent increases?

    Even if rent increases were prohibited in the morning, average rents would continue to rise because of all of the other rules. If rent controls are to be applied, they should apply equally to two identical neighbouring properties, until that happens, they landlords being unfairly penalised will continue to leave the market and average rents will continue to rise. Use RTB data to establish benchmark rents on a per square meter basis for areas with an allowance for BER. Use this as the benchmark for all new tenancies and apply a higher rate of tax to rental income above the benchmark rate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 924 ✭✭✭thegame983


    The government want high rents. Their goal is to transfer as much of your payslip as possible into the hands of investment firms.

    They're doing a great job.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,982 ✭✭✭enricoh


    Is it not government policy to increase rents as much as possible?!

    Certainly nothing that has been done in the last 10 years by politicians has done anything to help price rises- quite the opposite.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,260 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    They could start by removing nonsense market interference like rent controls and hap.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,644 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Free market nonsense like this isn't going to help anyone. What's needed is either tighter regulation and enforcement or, at the very, least more homes. If needs be, NIMBY's need to be trampled over. This isn't going away any time soon.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,260 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    You can regulate and enforce till the cows come home, but I don't think that will change anything. In fact it is likely to make things worse, as LLs exit the market.

    The only real solution is to go back to the future (ie the 50's) and start building social housing.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,644 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    True but since building enough social housing - a policy I wholeheartedly endorse - isn't going to happen, this is the next best thing. Germany has a successful and regulated rental sector. I'm sure there are downsides to it as well but since the obvious solution isn't being pursued, this seems like the next best thing.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,298 ✭✭✭✭Danzy



    Even at an unprecedented level it's not even going to cover this years inward migration alone with several years building, nevermind backlogs.


    The 3 big parties have no interest in rent mitigation in reality



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,260 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    The german situation - and I am of German descent, my maternal grandmother moved here during the war - is different for a number of reasons. There is a different culture towards renting. There are also better controls on both sides. Leases are long term and properties are generally bought for pension funds. The properties are let unfurnished, and often tenants even fit their own kitchens etc. This is coupled with it being normal for properties to be sold with a sitting tenant. There are good legal repercussions for non-payment of rent.

    If (and it's a big IF) we could implement all that in one go here it would be great.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,260 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    We shouldn't be housing immigrants in social housing, there should be quick processing of inward migration and then either the immigrants are expected to work and contribute, or are not allowed enter.

    There are thousands and thousands on the housing list. Any positive change would be better than doing nothing. I'm a right wing FG supporter but I hate market interference, rent controls and HAP more than I hate the idea of building social housing. If we are entering a recession, large social housing building contracts are a great idea too.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,086 ✭✭✭afatbollix


    We need more housing stock. That's about it. We might be on the verge of a recession but if they stop building it will only get worse in years to come.


    But that would be seen as a bad thing to help out some builders so would never happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    we have to accept that free market fundamentalism has completely failed, and is now in a state of collapse, yes much greater state interventions and actions is actually the only solution, but we seem to be stuck, and unable to do so, for various different reasons, many ideologically based....

    ..once again our governmental majorly fcuked up during covid, as bond rates went negative, public finances should have been refinanced under these conditions, and significant borrowing done to build, this didnt happen, so.......



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,260 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Agree, building some is better than building none, but building more is better. Start now.

    LOL. Purple haze is a great product.

    (seriously though, I'm not interested in a discussion with someone who states that free market fundamentalism has failed. Free market sales of Tin Foil will be going through the roof!)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    please show us where free market fundamental ideologies are leading to more stable housing markets, providing us with appropriate health care needs, environmental needs, amongst other critical human needs?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What state entities produces the innovative advances in medicines, diagnostic equipment and therpaies over the past 50 years? Or was it mostly driven and developed by the US corporations who pour billions into R+D with R+D budgets the size of small countries' budgets?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,260 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Venezuela, north korea, ussr, cuba, these are all great examples of non free market state run thriving economies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,865 ✭✭✭lisasimpson


    The worse thing that ever happened the rental market was HAP. Shouldnt never have been the job of private sector to provide social housing.

    Also proper enforement of vacant and derelict taxes. Rediculous situation in Macroom for example where Dunnes Stores are sitting on numerous empty apartments above their store never occupied. Also patricks st Templemore half of one side of the street falling into dereliction since tiger years. Owned by a former county councilor yet locals cannot get planning permission within the urban area to build their own family homes



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,644 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    What has this to do with the Irish housing market?

    If ideology doesn't evolve, it gets discarded. It's remarkable how those who make the most noises about the free market almost never support an actual housing market.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    FF were in thrall to the construction industry. The only building they favoured was the building of a tent at the Galway Races - which gives a good indication as to what drove them.

    FG then went for populist aping of their policies to get elected, and followed UK in selling the existing social houses at a massive discount and did not replace them.

    Approximately 30% of housing needs to be social housing with the rent subsidised according to the means of the occupiers. If they do not need the subsidy, then the rent mirrors the open market rent.

    The Gov has set the ration of social housing at 10%. I think that would indicate something. The Gov has built next to no social housing for the last 40 years, and that says something also.

    Draw your own conclusions as to the intent of Irish Governments over those 40 years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,215 ✭✭✭Good loser


    I've told you before (more than once if I remember correctly) that the Councils did continue to provide social housing; the only difference being they BOUGHT houses already built by the private sector rather than BUILDING them. For the simple and obvious reason that this was CHEAPER. The Approved Housing Bodies were also a factor - I am not sure what role they played. I know they bought a 28 unit estate in a local town around 2010.



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    No they built none and bought a few, but nothing like the number required.

    Buying houses that got planning for private ownership is not right as it diminishes the number available for the first time market.

    Also, there was a huge increase in private landlords with buy to let mortgages that relied on rising property prices.

    None of these measures tackled the shortage of supply, and that has led to the current problem of sky high rets and no houses to buy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,215 ✭✭✭Good loser


    You want more Govt interference in the housing market when all the evidence points to them having made a hames of it - especially the rental market. The only worthwhile intervention by the Govt in the rental market is the HAP scheme; the market sets the rent, the tenant finds the accommodation and the Govt fills the gap between the actual rent and what the tenant can afford. There is minimal State interference and little bureaucratic input.

    On News at One Tuesday Bryan Dobson interviewed Prof Michelle Norris of UCD re rentals. Quite the best interview I have heard on the subject for a long, long time. 20,000 small landlords have left the market in recent years. Reasons (1) some are no longer in neg equity and cashed out (2) some find the business unattractive - unlike other businesses they are taxed on turnover NOT on profits i.e. taxed on gross rent less allowable deductions (3) Some years ago PRSI was not paid on the income, now it is significantly increasing the tax (4) She said there had been 6 interventions by the State in the housing rental market in the last 3 years all putting burdens on landlords either on rents or on repossessions. [Incidentally Eoin O Broin only ever refers to the first of these reasons and is never interrogated on it]

    Prof Norris said the first thing to do is [no, not extend rent cap Eoin] stem the exit of small landlords from the market thro action on tax and no NEW regulations should be introduced without modelling/testing for potential impact on supply.

    Effectively no new regulations.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    How many times must we build social housing only for them to turn into dumps like Ballymun, Moyross and other areas by those housed there? They weren't all high rise either in case you want to use that as an excuse.

    Thankfully this is one example of the Government not repeating mistakes of the past.

    If social housing is needed, it must be limited as much as possible and in small numbers, dispersed across all areas.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,215 ✭✭✭Good loser


    ou're all over the place. When the market collapsed in 2008 the LA's and the Housing Bodies were the ONLY substantial buyers in the market.

    What do you mean by 'they bought a few'? How do you know? Do you not remember the problem of unfinished/ghost estates, where the problem was how quickly they could be demolished ? There was a great chance then for the State to go counter cyclical (NOT NOW) but they hadn't a bob and if they did they would have been accused of bailing out builders/developers/banks. Short term ism again which bedevils the housing sector.

    No Houses 'got panning for private ownership'. Builders had to provide some social housing but could sell the rest as they wished and the LA was free to buy as they wished.

    Your third sentence sets out a huge (your word) increase in private landlords as being a PROBLEM. Surely they were helping the problem??



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Government interference has lead us to this point. Maybe they should take a step back and see if it starts to right itself.

    The constant introduction of new standards and controls are adding additional costs to home ownership and rentals. HAP and First time buyer payments are just giving people more money to throw at the problem and increasing costs. The government is competing with the public when it comes to home ownership pushing prices up.

    The amount of money being wasted on social housing with little improvement in the situation is mind boggling. Instead of being ringfenced for local area improvements half the LPT collected is spent on social housing and a significant portion of of the HSE budget is spent on housing.

    The state should just focus on providing low cost purpose built social accommodation, go back to building small flats to help people when they are in need. If the recipients turn it into a ghetto at least they will be easier to police when they are all in one location. The idea of the state providing you with your dream home in the location of your choice needs to end.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Just to look at Ballymun.

    Ballymun was a brilliant development when first built, according to those lucky enough to get housed there. They had lifts and caretakers - just to keep the place well looked after. But when the money got tight, the caretakers were dispensed with, and when the lifts stopped working, the general tone began to tend towards grim.

    When damp began to appear, it was not sorted because money was tight. So more tending towards grim.

    So those who could get out did, and the general level of tenants tended towards being anti-social. Drugs began to appear, and then dominate.

    The DCC eventually chose to demolish the high rise, but could have revamped them as student accommodation for the local DCU, but did not.

    This is the result of lack of funding from central Gov, poor management of local funding, and short sighted housing planning with no vision.

    Social houses are needed by the poorest in society, and generally have needs much more than funding. Social housing, therefore, needs active management, not just provision of bricks and mortar.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The lack of social housing dates back to the 1980s. The whole market collapse was the result of lack of social housing, as existing units were sold off at a discount and not replaced. This led to the continuous rise in house prices, and allowed the private landlords to buy houses on buy-to-let mortgages and based the scheme on the benefit gained from that house price inflation - the rent paid the buy-to-let mortgage.

    In the 1950s and 1960s the State built Ballyfermot, Ballymun, Finglas, and many more estates around the country. When has such a building campaign happened since?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    If the public money flowing from the bottomless public purse into the private market was stopped, you'd quickly see a decrease in prices.



  • Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭jimmybobbyschweiz


    If rents reduce materially, so do housing prices as housing prices have been plucked up due to the yield potential of the property. If it turns out it's 1000 per room per month rent in Dublin, this would be a yield of 7% per annum on a three bed home worth €500,000! The rental market has been used as the funnel to prop up the whole market consequently and the politicians have invented so many schemes to quench supply of rentals while inflating demand in order to keep rents going up, from HAP which is putting a very high floor under rents, to kicking out small landlords from the market etc.

    When the economic prosperity and wealth of the nation has been largely judged by what it is provided for on paper (particularly household wealth which incorporates the value of the extremely illiquid family home), it is in the politicians interest to have a booming housing market as this inflates the paper prosperity metrics which they think voters care about in terms of seeing the economy perform well. It's a con and the actual housing crisis is a political issue, not an economic one.

    Therefore, the way for politics to contribute to the housing crisis alleviation is, quite simply, for it to let the sleeping free market capitalist dogs lie and stay out of it, except to ensure the very bottom have shelter.

    And remember, this has not been an overnight result, it has been the same course FG have taken the last decade.




  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,644 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    But this flow is caused by a lack of social housing. Build proper, fit-for-purpose, managed social housing lile @Sam Russell says and you'd bring down rents in a sensible way, create jobs and probably decrease crime as well.

    By the way, Sam, could you explain this please?

    FF were in thrall to the construction industry. The only building they favoured was the building of a tent at the Galway Races - which gives a good indication as to what drove them.

    I live in the UK and would have thought a government in thrall to the construction sector would be building left, right and centre.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,605 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I don't know what time period you are referring to above, but selling social housing to council tenants cheaply has been a thing since at least the early 1970s.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    It's a vicious cycle. Public bodies won't/can't build. So they pump money into the market from their "bottomless" purses. Which leaves the market in a state which makes it even more difficult to do things the way they should do them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden


    Very well put. The only thing I would point out is that identical properties dont have identical fitouts or service from the owners, so the rental value of one could be higher than the other easily depending on those things.

    People and politicians looking for more restrictions on landlords are the very definition of Turkeys voting for Christmas.

    Post edited by DownByTheGarden on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,260 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    I just don't get why we waste so much money on HAP. Let's build social houses. En masse. But - and here's the crux of it - don't give them away or have rights to purchase for cents on the dollar. You have a social house as long as, and only that long, as you need it. It is not inheritable.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Quote @ancapailldorcha

    [ By the way, Sam, could you explain this please?

    FF were in thrall to the construction industry. The only building they favoured was the building of a tent at the Galway Races - which gives a good indication as to what drove them.

    I live in the UK and would have thought a government in thrall to the construction sector would be building left, right and centre.]

    The benefit for the construction industry is not the Gov building houses - it is by the Gov providing the climate that favours a particular part of the economy. The Gov have not done significant programmes of building homes since the 1970s.

    It is be giving out planning permission and rezoning land so houses can be built in unsuitable locations like flood plains, or where there is no infrastructure like sewers, electricity supply, schools, shops, etc. It is by giving first-time house purchasers a grant that is immediately pocketed by builders of houses who simply add the grant to the asking price. It is by allowing developers to form limited liability companies to build a scheme and then those companies going bust - with no comeback. It is by preventing improvements in building regulations that require decent levels of insulation, minimum accommodation standards. It is by not putting in place a Building Standards Enforcement regime such that standards are adhered to, and certified by qualified practitioners.

    There is plenty of evidence that such tactics were employed that benefited developers, while being paid for by ever rising house prices, and costly refits. The mica problem in Donegal and the fire risk in apartment blocks is evidence of poor standards enforcement.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,339 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    Not sure about the fit out TBH, it's too subjective and open to abuse as a price control benchmark. If you look at countries with functioning rental markets, they typically rent unfurnished with white walls. Tenants are free to furnish and decorate as they wish but must return it in the same condition.

    As for the levels of service from the owners, every tenant deserves a timely response to any reasonable request but in reality, what they should have is autonomy, like with the freedom to decorate. Taking an extreme example, our minimum rental standards require the provision of a microwave, an appliance that can cost as little as €75 or less than 0.5% of the average annual rent for new tenancies. If the microwave fails, and the tenant is waiting a week for a new one, that's poor service but in reality, our regulations are focused on the wrong thing, something like a microwave should be the tenants responsibility, they should be free to choose whatever microwave they want, or none, without having to to figure out where to store whatever POS the landlord provided, same for bed, sofa, and other furnishings. Larger appliances like fridge freezer, cooker, washing machine are probably better on the LL side but the regs should call out what a timely response to any issues should be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden


    Thats never going to happen in Ireland though.

    As you have pointed out you cant go unfurnished here because it is illegal. So you are left furnishing with different quality goods depending on what quality a landlord is willing to pay for, given that normal wear and tear seems to be anything up to cooking on a campfire on top of the coffee table in the living room. Never mind that people in Ireland dont want unfurnished (some do, but not many, especially when they realize they will have to pay for the goods themselves).

    Also response times vary. If a landlord is taking a week to respond because he wont pay for an agency then his service is different to one who pays a fee to an agency to respond in one day. He will need to recover that outlay.

    You might even get a landlord who redecorates one a year compared to one who only does it once every 5 years. For instance we would repaint the walls in our house every 10 years, but in a rental you would get the same wear in only 1 year. We bought 2 identical washing machines 5 years ago. Put one in our house and one in the apartment. Within a year and a half we had to replace the one in the apartment when the tenants left and we had to show the place again. The drawer full of gunk and cracked, filter blocked stuck, door hanging off, and generally filthy. The one in our house still looks and operates like the day we bought it. Some landlords would have left the tenant with that washing machine for another few years since they cant get the money back from replacing it.

    Point is you cant price control properties based on type because they are not identical.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Of course properties can be valued as to rent level and also likely sale value - that is the job of auctioneers.

    What is required is to beef up the RTB so that it can get the rent charged on all residential properties, can get a reliable description of such properties, can inspect properties if required, and be able to set rents. When you know all the rents, then outliers will be apparent.

    They should also be inspecting properties that are claimed to be below standard.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    People use the German example all the time without taking into account the context of German historical renting, it has a lot to do with rebuilding Germany after half of it was turned to rubble after WW2. you can read about it better than I can explain it at the link below

    https://qz.com/167887/germany-has-one-of-the-worlds-lowest-homeownership-rates/amp



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,215 ✭✭✭Good loser




  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell




  • Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭jimmybobbyschweiz




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I was listening to an item on the radio about the Tenters area of Dublin 8, as it is 100 years old, centred on Oscar Square.

    It was built (using the remnants of British funding) in 2022 to provide much needed housing for Dubliners, 50% of whom lived in appalling conditions in tenements, renting just one room for a family.

    It was built as the kind of housing they should have as opposed to the kind of housing they could afford, with front gardens for flowers and rear gardens for vegetables. It was a tenant rent/purchase arrangement where the term was 40 years. The tenants had to be living in the city, the man must have a job, and the family must have at least three children. Most came from the tenements.

    The rent collector set up shop to collect the rents every week and two stories were told. One of the woman who came to pay here rent and asked where were the family upstairs. She was told the whole house was hers - all the rooms were hers. Another one who came to pay the rent, and the collector said that there was no rent due. The forty year term was up, and the house was yours.

    Now that approach might well work now. If only we had politicians with vision that this showed of the new state 100 years ago.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    modern society is far different in many ways, even financing property is now far more complex, when you start to look at the operations of credit and bond markets etc, but something is clearly catastrophically failing now in regards meeting this critical need. its clearly obvious the intended political approach of significantly reducing the public ownership of property, and the encouragement of more privately owned, is now starting to fail dramatically, the only solution here is the reintroduction of public accommodation, both housing and apartments, and to maintain a higher level of public ownership than is of current, an enormous amount of government borrowing is needed for this, but our current and previous governments have been deeply unwilling to accept this reality, hence their current falling.....



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    If one accepts the precept that 35% of housing has to be social housing (the old council houses), then the state has to provide it. We accept that most people must have publicly funded health, publicly funded education, etc., then why does the political expect everyone to own their own home?

    Now it can be argued that the 35% should be, say, 25%, but the Gov sent the ration at 10%. Not all renters require subsidy, and rents should be means tested where they are subsidised.

    Also, private renters should have security of tenure - if the comply with the lease (not destroy the gaff or be anti-social) and pay the rent. Current interpretation of the property rights in the constitution favours the landlord 100%.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    we re currently experiencing a major ideological failure, and id argue its actually a collapse, to the point, we dont really know what to do about it, and that also includes the opposition, we re also not the only country experiencing this problem, as its a wide scale global one. it could be argued, and i do partly agree with this, this approach worked for many older generations, in regards home ownership, many of which, probably would have never been able to obtain ownership without these polices, but this has now placed younger generations at great risk

    renting public accommodation should be means tested, a significant amount of public borrowing will be required to build, which means many will probably need to pay market rate, or near market rate, to guarantee repayment of these loans.

    our current approach is actually greatly exposing both renters and landlords, in order to have a functioning private market, protective measures for both entities are critical in order for these markets to function and exist, its clearly obvious, if we continue as is, this part of our property markets will more than likely also collapse, i strongly disagree with your last comment, even though an understandable one, there are failures in both sides of this story



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    @Wanderer78

    The constitution guarantees the property rights of owners of property. That is clearly the situation. The courts have interpreted that is clear, and if it were not so clearly stated, then the tenant could not be evicted just because the landlord chooses to sell, or needs it for some nephew or other (perhaps non-existent) relative.

    We need a referendum to sort this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    again, i somewhat disagree, the nuances of being a landlord arent clear cut, there can be large amounts of debt still owed, and personal assets used in order to gain access to that credit, of course taxes to be paid and other costs, then of course theres the continual threat of a tenant refusing to leave and/or wrecking the place, this has all become very very messy, but i will agree, we probably do need referenda to help solve this one, as this has become a great danger for our economy and our society



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,904 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    If a tenant does not pay the agreed rent, or destroys the gaff, then they should be out on their ear within a very short time.

    However, if they have a lease ad behave themselves, they are secure in he home, as they are in most EU counties.

    The financial situation of the landlord should have no bearing on the matter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,931 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    there clearly needs to be a functioning eviction process, but in order to have that, there must be a functioning public housing system to support it, as people still need to be housed no matter what, making people homeless isnt a solution, even if tenents wreck places.

    its understandable why we re now introducing eviction bans, but equal protections must also be included for landlords, an eviction ban alone simply wont work, both parties must be protected, in order to maintain a functioning system.

    the reality is, the financial situation of the landlord, and of the property, must be included, there simply cannot be a situation whereby many landlords are facing default, and potential homelessness themselves, one of the main lessons from 08 should be the fact, if theres a significant amount of defaults on mortgages, it potentially could bring the whole system done, i.e. ignoring this fact simply is not an option, and must be included



  • Advertisement
Advertisement