So...whats the point in mass cards?

katydid · 07-09-2015 2:47pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

People find solace from knowing that their loved ones are remembered in the prayers of others.

I frequently pray for people who I don't know personally - e.g. the victims and refugees of the current war in Syria. I'm sure you do to. I don't think our prayers are devalued by not knowing them personally. God knows them; isn't that good enough?

But their loved ones are NOT remembered in the prayers of others. Some priest over in Papua New Guinea who read the name "Mary Murphy" during mass is not praying for Mary Murphy, he is fulfilling a duty that he has been paid to do.

Genuinely offering prayer for strangers in trouble or need is not the same as reading a strange name off a list in the course of a mass. I led a prayer for a woman called Janet during the Prayers of the People yesterday; I don't know the woman, but a member of the congregation did, told me about her illness, and asked me to include her in the prayers, which I did. It hopefully gave solace and hope to this member of the congregation, and others who knew her. We also prayed for the refugees, and for the governments of Europe to be find a wise and humane solution to their plight. We may not know them by name, but we genuinely care about them as a group and as human beings.

One can pray in general for (if one must) those who have died, but let's not pretend that intoning a name from a list, with no thought of the person involved, is praying for them.

katydid · 07-09-2015 2:49pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Routing mass offerings onwards to missionary priests is a long-standing practice - it's one of the ways that priests are supported in parishes in poor countries that are unable to support a priest. The priest says masses for the intentions of the donors. He doesn't know (or need to know) the donors' names, or the details of their intentions; God knows them already.

Usually if a mass is said for a deceased person the person's name will only be explicitly included in the spoken prayers if there is somebody in the congregation who would be likely to know the person.

If God knows them already, why does some priest in a foreign country need to read their name off a list or "implicitly" include them?

If people want to support these priests in other countries, then just support them. Send them money. But attaching it to the notion of reading a name from a list is a farce.

Peregrinus · 07-09-2015 2:55pm

katydid wrote: »

But their loved ones are NOT remembered in the prayers of others. Some priest over in Papua New Guinea who read the name "Mary Murphy" during mass is not praying for Mary Murphy, he is fulfilling a duty that he has been paid to do.

Genuinely offering prayer for strangers in trouble or need is not the same as reading a strange name off a list in the course of a mass. I led a prayer for a woman called Janet during the Prayers of the People yesterday; I don't know the woman, but a member of the congregation did, told me about her illness, and asked me to include her in the prayers, which I did. It hopefully gave solace and hope to this member of the congregation, and others who knew her. We also prayed for the refugees, and for the governments of Europe to be find a wise and humane solution to their plight. We may not know them by name, but we genuinely care about them as a group and as human beings.

One can pray in general for (if one must) those who have died, but let's not pretend that intoning a name from a list, with no thought of the person involved, is praying for them.

But, as already pointed out, the missionary priest to whom the mass offering has been routed doesn't intone a name from a list. He typically doesn't know the name of the person who has died, or of the person who has arranged the mass. He doesn't need to.

What he does is to pray for the intentions of the donor. That's a perfectly genuine and meaningful prayer; why not? (And that's not just a Catholic practice; in my days at Trinity College we prayed daily for the deceased benefactors of the college, despite having no idea who they were. God knew who they were; why would we need to?)

The priest saying mass for the intentions of the donor does so not just on his own behalf but on behalf of the entire church (because a priest saying mass is praying on behalf of the entire church). People derive solace from knowing that the church joins in a corporate way in praying for their intentions.

katydid · 07-09-2015 3:21pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

But, as already pointed out, the missionary priest to whom the mass offering has been routed doesn't intone a name from a list. He typically doesn't know the name of the person who has died, or of the person who has arranged the mass. He doesn't need to.

What he does is to pray for the intentions of the donor. That's a perfectly genuine and meaningful prayer; why not? (And that's not just a Catholic practice; in my days at Trinity College we prayed daily for the deceased benefactors of the college, despite having no idea who they were. God knew who they were; why would we need to?)

The priest saying mass for the intentions of the donor does so not just on his own behalf but on behalf of the entire church (because a priest saying mass is praying on behalf of the entire church). People derive solace from knowing that the church joins in a corporate way in praying for their intentions.

I didn't know that they don't read the name out. I have observed how, at masses in Ireland, lists of names are read out like a laundry list. I know personally of an instance where the priest got the person (my aunt's) name wrong, to add insult to injury.

How do we know this priest in God knows where is praying for the intentions of the donor? He receives a pile of money and a list of names. He has no idea who donated what, what the intention behind the donation was. How can he be praying for them?

It would make some sense if the priest doing the praying knew the deceased or the donor - surely it's not beyond the bounds of possibility for a person to go to their local priest and ask him to pray for their loved one when they are saying mass? Is that surely not more meaningful that the industrial system now in operation?

I understand what you're saying about the "corporate" notion, but I still think it's trying to defend the indefensible, which is a scam operation by the RC church to get money from the faithful in a very dubious way. It may have had good intentions at the start, and there is nothing wrong with asking a specific priest to do something and them giving him a donation for his trouble, but when it comes to the stage where the public go into a shop and make a commercial transaction for a pre-signed card, there is something rotten in the system. It is no better than pre-Reformation practices of indulgence selling.

homer911 · 07-09-2015 3:36pm

I cant get past the idea of paying someone for prayer, never mind paying someone you dont know for prayer for a dead person

Can anyone tell me what the typical wording is in one of these cards, and what words the priest says?

Peregrinus · 07-09-2015 3:41pm

katydid wrote: »

How do we know this priest in God knows where is praying for the intentions of the donor? He receives a pile of money and a list of names. He has no idea who donated what, what the intention behind the donation was. How can he be praying for them?

He doesn't receive a list of names - just the money. But he knows that the money represents offerings from people who have asked for mass to be said for the intentions, so he says mass for their intentions.

katydid wrote: »

It would make some sense if the priest doing the praying knew the deceased or the donor - surely it's not beyond the bounds of possibility for a person to go to their local priest and ask him to pray for their loved one when they are saying mass? Is that surely not more meaningful that the industrial system now in operation?

That's perfectly possible, and lots of people do it.

katydid wrote: »

I understand what you're saying about the "corporate" notion, but I still think it's trying to defend the indefensible, which is a scam operation by the RC church to get money from the faithful in a very dubious way. It may have had good intentions at the start, and there is nothing wrong with asking a specific priest to do something and them giving him a donation for his trouble, but when it comes to the stage where the public go into a shop and make a commercial transaction for a pre-signed card, there is something rotten in the system. It is no better than pre-Reformation practices of indulgence selling.

I'll be honest with you; I'm not overly impressed with the system myself. And I would say that in a lot of countries it's pretty well unknown, but it thrives still in Ireland.

But I wouldn't accept that it's "dubious". If anything is dubious, isn't it taking the view that the celebrant ought to know, or know about, the deceased? That suggests that whatever grace the sacrament offers is in some way connected to the personal merits or attentions of the celebrant. To my mind there's something almost "pure" in the idea of praying for someone's intentions even when you don't know what those intentions are - it emphasises our total dependence on God and on the grace of God, which in no way depends on our understanding or knowledge.

And, whatever about the specifics of mass cards, praying for the unknown intentions of others is a well-settled Catholic practice.

tipptom · 07-09-2015 3:42pm

katydid wrote: »

I didn't know that they don't read the name out. I have observed how, at masses in Ireland, lists of names are read out like a laundry list. I know personally of an instance where the priest got the person (my aunt's) name wrong, to add insult to injury.

How do we know this priest in God knows where is praying for the intentions of the donor? He receives a pile of money and a list of names. He has no idea who donated what, what the intention behind the donation was. How can he be praying for them?

It would make some sense if the priest doing the praying knew the deceased or the donor - surely it's not beyond the bounds of possibility for a person to go to their local priest and ask him to pray for their loved one when they are saying mass? Is that surely not more meaningful that the industrial system now in operation?

I understand what you're saying about the "corporate" notion, but I still think it's trying to defend the indefensible, which is a scam operation by the RC church to get money from the faithful in a very dubious way. It may have had good intentions at the start, and there is nothing wrong with asking a specific priest to do something and them giving him a donation for his trouble, but when it comes to the stage where the public go into a shop and make a commercial transaction for a pre-signed card, there is something rotten in the system. It is no better than pre-Reformation practices of indulgence selling.

I didn't know that they didn't read out the name either.
So technically I could just American Express this priest in the West indies a tenner with no name or card and have the very same service except the priest in the West Indies doesn't get low balled by a main contractor from this country.

Peregrinus · 07-09-2015 3:44pm

homer911 wrote: »

I cant get past the idea of paying someone for prayer, never mind paying someone you dont know for prayer for a dead person

Can anyone tell me what the typical wording is in one of these cards, and what words the priest says?

The card says something like "the holy sacrifice of the mass will be offered for the repose of the soul of [name]". And it's signed by or on behalf of a priest, to indicate that whoever gives you the card has in fact made arrangements for the celebration of mass.

The priest just says mass in the usual way, while holding the donor's intentions in his heart. If the donor, or relatives, friends or neighbours of the deceased, are or may be in attendance, he will usually mention the deceased in the eucharistic prayer, but that's not essential.

Peregrinus · 07-09-2015 3:47pm

tipptom wrote: »

I didn't know that they didn't read out the name either.
So technically I could just American Express this priest in the West indies a tenner with no name or card and have the very same service except the priest in the West Indies doesn't get low balled by a main contractor from this country.

If you had his name and address, yes, you could write to him asking him to say mass for your intentions and enclosing an offering.

But of course part of the mass card is that you will give it to someone else, and that will provide them with some solace, because they'll know you thought of them, and of the person they loved who has died. Doing it this way, you won't have a card to give to someone else.

tipptom · 07-09-2015 4:02pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

If you had his name and address, yes, you could write to him asking him to say mass for your intentions and enclosing an offering.

But of course part of the mass card is that you will give it to someone else, and that will provide them with some solace, because they'll know you thought of them, and of the person they loved who has died. Doing it this way, you won't have a card to give to someone else.

But the list of names that they write down(and I have seen a copy book that they use in a shop full of pages of names)in the shop after you have bought the card is useless if they don't read out their names and does it even go to the hypothetical West Indies?

I am not trying to be smart here and I have learned(I would bet 50% of people don't know that names are not read out) something about how it operates but I have to say I am cynical about this offshore mass cards intentions.

katydid · 07-09-2015 4:12pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

But of course part of the mass card is that you will give it to someone else, and that will provide them with some solace, because they'll know you thought of them, and of the person they loved who has died. Doing it this way, you won't have a card to give to someone else.

Buy a sympathy card in the shop and put a note in saying you've made a donation to the church/charity. At least Hallmark don't pretend not to be a commercial enterprise, and you're not supporting a scam.

katydid · 07-09-2015 4:19pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

The priest just says mass in the usual way, while holding the donor's intentions in his heart. If the donor, or relatives, friends or neighbours of the deceased, are or may be in attendance, he will usually mention the deceased in the eucharistic prayer, but that's not essential.

So the priest reads a name off a list and "holds in his heart" the intention of the donor (how does he know the intentions of someone on the other side of the world he's never met)while saying mass...

Sorry, but that's a load of nonsense. Especially when the only reason he has this name in the first place is because money has changed hands.

katydid · 07-09-2015 4:36pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

He doesn't receive a list of names - just the money. But he knows that the money represents offerings from people who have asked for mass to be said for the intentions, so he says mass for their intentions.

That's perfectly possible, and lots of people do it.

I'll be honest with you; I'm not overly impressed with the system myself. And I would say that in a lot of countries it's pretty well unknown, but it thrives still in Ireland.

But I wouldn't accept that it's "dubious". If anything is dubious, isn't it taking the view that the celebrant ought to know, or know about, the deceased? That suggests that whatever grace the sacrament offers is in some way connected to the personal merits or attentions of the celebrant. To my mind there's something almost "pure" in the idea of praying for someone's intentions even when you don't know what those intentions are - it emphasises our total dependence on God and on the grace of God, which in no way depends on our understanding or knowledge.

And, whatever about the specifics of mass cards, praying for the unknown intentions of others is a well-settled Catholic practice.

Sorry, there are crossed wires in my posts: I'm working up the screen and didn't see this post before I responded to a later one.

This gets worse and worse; not only do they not read out the names, the priest in the far off place doesn't even have a list of names? There's not even a pretence that this is about an individual person. Give me the money and I'll say a prayer for all the dead people whose relatives and friends have given me the money, but I've no clue who they are or what they want from this prayer...

That is NOT praying for unknown intentions. That is just cynical abuse of the concept of prayer, for financial gain. If the intention is that grace is accorded through the sacrament of the mass, how can grace be present in such a shoddy transaction? Even if the celebrant doesn't personally know the person for whom the mass is being offered, surely there has to be some sort of spiritual investment or connection with the life and death of the person concerned and the donor? It doesn't mean knowing the person's character, or how they lived their lives, but surely the least one could expect is that that person is prayed for as an individual in a meaningful way during that most important sacrament? The fact that the individual doesn't feature in any way at all, not even by name, makes the whole transaction more grubby than I thought at first.

I agree absolutely with what you say about the beauty and purity of praying in the abstract, for groups of people, cohorts of society, societal issues etc.. But these cards were bought by people for whom the individual mattered, and who, mistakenly by the looks of it, seem to think that that individual will be remembered in some way in the dedication of a mass to them. And what they get is an unknown priest dedicating a mass to dead people in general.

I always found the concept distasteful. What you've told me about makes it quite repulsive to me, I have to say.

Safehands · 07-09-2015 6:05pm

katydid wrote: »

Sorry, there are crossed wires in my posts: I'm working up the screen and didn't see this post before I responded to a later one.

This gets worse and worse; not only do they not read out the names, the priest in the far off place doesn't even have a list of names? There's not even a pretence that this is about an individual person. Give me the money and I'll say a prayer for all the dead people whose relatives and friends have given me the money, but I've no clue who they are or what they want from this prayer...

That is NOT praying for unknown intentions. That is just cynical abuse of the concept of prayer, for financial gain. If the intention is that grace is accorded through the sacrament of the mass, how can grace be present in such a shoddy transaction? Even if the celebrant doesn't personally know the person for whom the mass is being offered, surely there has to be some sort of spiritual investment or connection with the life and death of the person concerned and the donor? It doesn't mean knowing the person's character, or how they lived their lives, but surely the least one could expect is that that person is prayed for as an individual in a meaningful way during that most important sacrament? The fact that the individual doesn't feature in any way at all, not even by name, makes the whole transaction more grubby than I thought at first.

I agree absolutely with what you say about the beauty and purity of praying in the abstract, for groups of people, cohorts of society, societal issues etc.. But these cards were bought by people for whom the individual mattered, and who, mistakenly by the looks of it, seem to think that that individual will be remembered in some way in the dedication of a mass to them. And what they get is an unknown priest dedicating a mass to dead people in general.

I always found the concept distasteful. What you've told me about makes it quite repulsive to me, I have to say.

Katy, don't get upset by the workings of the RC Church. Honesty has never been their strong point. But people do believe what they tell them and usually, that is a positive thing. This is similar to buying one of those scratch cards on a low cost flight and thinking you are contributing to the relief of some down and out in some anonymous place. It may make you feel good but then, you don't really think about it, do you. Very, very little money goes to the good cause, but people feel good about the thought that they have helped out some charity. It is a little bit dishonest in the way it is presented but people don't really care. Airline chiefs, politicians and clergy don't really do honesty, but they're great at pretending they do.

katydid · 07-09-2015 6:12pm

Safehands wrote: »

Katy, don't get upset by the workings of the RC Church. Honesty has never been their strong point. But people do believe what they tell them and usually, that is a positive thing. This is similar to buying one of those scratch cards on a low cost flight and thinking you are contributing to the relief of some down and out in some anonymous place. It may make you feel good but then, you don't really think about it, do you. Very, very little money goes to the good cause, but people feel good about the thought that they have helped out some charity. It is a little bit dishonest in the way it is presented but people don't really care. Airline chiefs, politicians and clergy don't really do honesty, but they're great at pretending they do.

There's a huge difference between a budget airline and a religious movement. The latter SHOULD be above such crassness and should not prey on the vulnerable. I'm no great fan of many of the regulations and practices of the RCC, but I do think that fundamentally, like any Christian denomination, at their heart, they try to live and preach the Gospel. Stuff like this, products of the man-made institution, let them down big time.

Lord Riverside · 07-09-2015 9:01pm

Haters will spin anything negatively to suit themselves (so don't bother trying with this post). A donation, is a donation, and not required to have a mass said for anyone, I've had several said without giving the Priest any donation, when I've had no money on me, but when I do I'm not going to be miserable about it. Our local priest on his own bat manages to support several parish Priests in Africa with mass donations. A Priest in Africa can live on a €10 for a week. I can give a €5 to hallmark when a friend dies, or I can give a tenner to a priest in Africa. I know which I'll be doing. No matter what Christian church you belong do it requires financial donations to run parishes and help the less well off, so all the usual hate mongers and soap boxing spammers engaged in spinning the oh so predictable pantomime anti Catholic hysterics, this time about mass cards, can go take a running jump as far as I'm concerned.

katydid · 07-09-2015 9:14pm

Lord Riverside wrote: »

Haters will spin anything negatively to suit themselves (so don't bother trying with this post). A donation, is a donation, and not required to have a mass said for anyone, I've had several said without giving the Priest any donation, when I've had no money on me, but when I do I'm not going to be miserable about it. Our local priest on his own bat manages to support several parish Priests in Africa with mass donations. A Priest in Africa can live on a €10 for a week. I can give a €5 to hallmark when a friend dies, or I can give a tenner to a priest in Africa. I know which I'll be doing. No matter what Christian church you belong do it requires financial donations to run parishes and help the less well off, so all the usual hate mongers and soap boxing spammers engaged in spinning the oh so predictable pantomime anti Catholic hysterics, this time about mass cards, can go take a running jump as far as I'm concerned.

No, it not required to make a donation to have a mass said for someone. But try going into a parish office and asking them to get a priest to say a mass for your granny, and see how far you'll get. Try offering a couple of euro, the normal price for a fairly low production greetings card, and see how far you'll get. The mass card thing is an industry, and has nothing to do with masses being said. As Perigrinus said here, the priests supposedly offering the masses don't get sight of any of the names that are noted when the money is handed over. It's just a scam.

There is absolutely nothing stopping you sending money to priests in Africa or anywhere else in the world. What is wrong is taking money off people in exchange for the notion that that priest will pray for your loved one, and this doesn't happen.

tipptom · 07-09-2015 9:31pm

Lord Riverside wrote: »

Haters will spin anything negatively to suit themselves (so don't bother trying with this post). A donation, is a donation, and not required to have a mass said for anyone, I've had several said without giving the Priest any donation, when I've had no money on me, but when I do I'm not going to be miserable about it. Our local priest on his own bat manages to support several parish Priests in Africa with mass donations. A Priest in Africa can live on a €10 for a week. I can give a €5 to hallmark when a friend dies, or I can give a tenner to a priest in Africa. I know which I'll be doing. No matter what Christian church you belong do it requires financial donations to run parishes and help the less well off, so all the usual hate mongers and soap boxing spammers engaged in spinning the oh so predictable pantomime anti Catholic hysterics, this time about mass cards, can go take a running jump as far as I'm concerned.

A ridiculous intolerant post of other peoples questions and opinions from thankfully a bygone era.
Doubt if it makes you any better Catholic than I am.

Lord Riverside · 07-09-2015 11:56pm

Sorry I forgot that none of ye spouting the same old sectarianism and spin from the saopbox are actually interested in allowing the reality to be told by people who actually use Mass cards. Parish office ? Lol, I've never seen one in my life. Sorry if I've spoiled the anti catholic pantomime fantasy here. Carry on.

Peregrinus · 08-09-2015 1:58am

katydid wrote: »

No, it not required to make a donation to have a mass said for someone. But try going into a parish office and asking them to get a priest to say a mass for your granny, and see how far you'll get. Try offering a couple of euro, the normal price for a fairly low production greetings card, and see how far you'll get. The mass card thing is an industry, and has nothing to do with masses being said. As Perigrinus said here, the priests supposedly offering the masses don't get sight of any of the names that are noted when the money is handed over. It's just a scam.

Point of order: I didn't say that last bit!

katydid wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing stopping you sending money to priests in Africa or anywhere else in the world. What is wrong is taking money off people in exchange for the notion that that priest will pray for your loved one, and this doesn't happen.

The unstated premise in your argument is that, if the priest doesn't know the name of your loved one, he can't pray for him. But as soon as you state the premise, you can see that it's nonsense, can't you? Why would the priest's prayers be one whit less acceptable to God because the priest doesn't know the name of the person he is praying for? What bizarre theology of prayer does this spring from?

katydid · 08-09-2015 8:53am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Point of order: I didn't say that last bit!

The unstated premise in your argument is that, if the priest doesn't know the name of your loved one, he can't pray for him. But as soon as you state the premise, you can see that it's nonsense, can't you? Why would the priest's prayers be one whit less acceptable to God because the priest doesn't know the name of the person he is praying for? What bizarre theology of prayer does this spring from?

Sorry, badly phrased. It was a different sentence, though! :-)

The premise, stated, is that - according to you - the priest in Africa is not praying in any way for the deceased. He doesn't even have their name. He just offers vague prayers for dead people in general, or maybe in Ireland in particular. It's not a question of him not knowing their name, there is NO prayer for any individual.

Yet the person buying the card puts the name of the person for whom the mass is offered on a list, presumable believing that individual will be prayed for.

katydid · 08-09-2015 8:54am

Lord Riverside wrote: »

Sorry I forgot that none of ye spouting the same old sectarianism and spin from the saopbox are actually interested in allowing the reality to be told by people who actually use Mass cards. Parish office ? Lol, I've never seen one in my life. Sorry if I've spoiled the anti catholic pantomime fantasy here. Carry on.

Where I live, the local friary church, in the city centre, has an office with a counter. You go in, hand over your tenner, and get a pre-signed card. Or you can get them in the local bookshop.

Delirium · 08-09-2015 8:59am

katydid wrote: »

Where I live, the local friary church, in the city centre, has an office with a counter. You go in, hand over your tenner, and get a pre-signed card. Or you can get them in the local bookshop.

The village I grew up in also has a parish office. It's run out of the Parochial House. So I'm not sure why anyone is getting their nose out of joint about the use of the term

Safehands · 08-09-2015 9:15am

Lord Riverside wrote: »

Sorry I forgot that none of ye spouting the same old sectarianism and spin from the saopbox are actually interested in allowing the reality to be told by people who actually use Mass cards. Parish office ? Lol, I've never seen one in my life. Sorry if I've spoiled the anti catholic pantomime fantasy here. Carry on.

"the anti catholic pantomime fantasy" is actually based on reality. Methinks your Lordship is just too blind to see it.

Peregrinus · 08-09-2015 10:21am

katydid wrote: »

Sorry, badly phrased. It was a different sentence, though! :-)

The premise, stated, is that - according to you - the priest in Africa is not praying in any way for the deceased. He doesn't even have their name. He just offers vague prayers for dead people in general, or maybe in Ireland in particular. It's not a question of him not knowing their name, there is NO prayer for any individual.

He prays for the intentions of the donor. He doesn't know the donors name, but he knows there is a donor (because he has received the donation) and that the donor had an intention. He doesn't know that the donor's intention is the repose of the soul of a deceased person, though he knows that there's a sporting chance that it is.

But, as I say, I don't know of any theology of prayer which suggests that this is a problem. If I donate money to charity, I don't usually know who it will benefit, but my act of charity is hardly devalued by that. If I pray for your intentions, I don't know what those intentions are, but my prayers are hardly devalued by that.

katydid · 08-09-2015 2:33pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

He prays for the intentions of the donor. He doesn't know the donors name, but he knows there is a donor (because he has received the donation) and that the donor had an intention. He doesn't know that the donor's intention is the repose of the soul of a deceased person, though he knows that there's a sporting chance that it is.

But, as I say, I don't know of any theology of prayer which suggests that this is a problem. If I donate money to charity, I don't usually know who it will benefit, but my act of charity is hardly devalued by that. If I pray for your intentions, I don't know what those intentions are, but my prayers are hardly devalued by that.

He know that someone somewhere in the world has given him money, and he prays for their intentions...a very long way from some poor old lady forking out a tenner and writing their loved one's name on a list on the assumption that someone, somewhere, will go to the trouble, little and all as it may be, of actually acknowledging that individual in some way.

Theologically, it may be "legal", but boy is that cynical abuse.

tipptom · 08-09-2015 5:41pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

He prays for the intentions of the donor. He doesn't know the donors name, but he knows there is a donor (because he has received the donation) and that the donor had an intention. He doesn't know that the donor's intention is the repose of the soul of a deceased person, though he knows that there's a sporting chance that it is.

But, as I say, I don't know of any theology of prayer which suggests that this is a problem. If I donate money to charity, I don't usually know who it will benefit, but my act of charity is hardly devalued by that. If I pray for your intentions, I don't know what those intentions are, but my prayers are hardly devalued by that.

What happens to this list of names that is taken and what is the purpose of taking a list of names then if their name is not mentioned because it certainly gives that impression.

Safehands · 08-09-2015 5:54pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

He prays for the intentions of the donor. He doesn't know the donors name, but he knows there is a donor (because he has received the donation) and that the donor had an intention. He doesn't know that the donor's intention is the repose of the soul of a deceased person, though he knows that there's a sporting chance that it is.

But, as I say, I don't know of any theology of prayer which suggests that this is a problem. If I donate money to charity, I don't usually know who it will benefit, but my act of charity is hardly devalued by that. If I pray for your intentions, I don't know what those intentions are, but my prayers are hardly devalued by that.

You know, reading these postings you would think that God is sitting on comfortable chair somewhere making decisions about some poor unfortunate's soul based on the amount of prayers he hears. So my granny is up there waiting to be admitted and she goes up to God and asks if she can come in yet. God replies "well actually, I haven't really heard enough prayers for you yet. You'll have to wait and see what comes in on the ether. Back to purgatory and behave yourself. Oh, wait, there's a priest in Zambia about to say Mass, hang on... Nah, he didn't mention your name, but he did pray for all the dead people so you go into the entry lottery with those six billion other souls. Maybe you'll get lucky."

Technique · 08-09-2015 8:27pm

katydid wrote: »

But try going into a parish office and asking them to get a priest to say a mass for your granny, and see how far you'll get. Try offering a couple of euro, the normal price for a fairly low production greetings card, and see how far you'll get.

To be perfectly honest, Katydid, that's a load of nonsense. None our local priests, and I presume the vast majority of priests, would ever refuse to say a mass for someone's intentions if a donation was not forthcoming.

Lord Riverside · 08-09-2015 8:33pm

Technique wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, Katydid, that's a load of nonsense. None our local priests, and I presume the vast majority of priests, would ever refuse to say a mass for someone's intentions if a donation was not forthcoming.

If you check the posters posting history, it's nothing new. Over a thousand posts in the Christianity forum, but not a single positive post, just constant anti catholic soap boxing and negative spin. It seems to be their strange little soapbox mission.

katydid · 08-09-2015 8:46pm

Technique wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, Katydid, that's a load of nonsense. None our local priests, and I presume the vast majority of priests, would ever refuse to say a mass for someone's intentions if a donation was not forthcoming.

I've no doubt that's true. I'm not talking about approaching a priest. I'm talking about the commercial transaction of selling these cards in parish offices and shops. If you go into a parish office and ask for a mass card, you won't see sight nor sound of a priest. You hand over a tenner and get the card. You can be damn sure if you ask for the card and say you're not paying, there would be questions asked. It's a business, pure and simple.

Technique · 08-09-2015 9:39pm

katydid wrote: »

If you go into a parish office and ask for a mass card, you won't see sight nor sound of a priest.

I'd disagree again, I'd say there's a fairly high chance of seeing a priest in the vicinity of the parish office.

Lack of knowledge around these matters isn't preventing you from having a very strong opinion.

katydid · 08-09-2015 9:43pm

Technique wrote: »

I'd disagree again, I'd say there's a fairly high chance of seeing a priest in the vicinity of the parish office.

Lack of knowledge around these matters isn't preventing you from having a very strong opinion.

I am well aware of how it works. I described the situation in the parish office of a church I know well; the office is staffed by one person, it is near but not in the church, and it is not normal for priests to be around there. I'm sure priests drop in every now and then, but it's just a normal office. People I know go there, or to the local book shop, to buy these cards in a purely commercial transaction.

Mrs OBumble · 09-09-2015 12:48pm

Technique wrote: »

I'd disagree again, I'd say there's a fairly high chance of seeing a priest in the vicinity of the parish office.

You'd be wrong. The vast majority of parish offices are run by lay secretarial staff. The priests pop in and out as they go about their day's work - but sitting behind a desk opening mail, paying bills, booking room, selling Mass cards, doing rosters, etc is not generally what they spend their time doing.

Cabaal · 14-09-2015 3:12pm

Technique wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, Katydid, that's a load of nonsense. None our local priests, and I presume the vast majority of priests, would ever refuse to say a mass for someone's intentions if a donation was not forthcoming.

I've been told no parish priest would ever refuse to christian a child belong to a single mother, yet a I know a women who was told just that by the local priest.

Refusing to say a mass without a donation would not surprise me in the least

looksee · 15-09-2015 5:16pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Not sure there's such thing as a Protestant athiest

Of course there is. I was brought up a Protestant so no matter how much I declare myself an atheist I some of my attitudes and cultural behaviours will reflect that. Not maybe very obvious things, but still, we are all products of our upbringing. It also means I have a pretty good knowledge of protestant beliefs.

Since I have been married to a Catholic, reared my children as Catholics and lived here for about 40 years I also have a pretty good knowledge of Catholic beliefs, but it would be a more academic knowledge rather than part of my makeup.

Jellybaby1 · 15-09-2015 7:50pm

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

It may sound a bit contradictory, however, I happen to know a few. You'd be surprised where they may turn up, too.

My earlier reply to the same statement. Possibly the same might go for 'Catholic atheist'. I know a few of those as well.

What people say in public and private are two different things sometimes.

johnnyskeleton · 17-09-2015 2:45am

Cabaal wrote: »

I'll be honest they come across as just a money making racket from the church, charging for pre-signed cards and the like.

I've heard varying reasons from very much practicing catholics about the importance of them, including one person who said they help get the person into heaven.

But isn't this just indulgence? and if so then it means people are essentially paying for the person to go to heaven.....wasn't that very much an abused medieval practice?

You can buy mass cards from the Capuchin brothers and the like. I can't speak for their efficacy as regards the immortal soul but the money does put substantial food into very mortal and hungry bellies.

Quitelife · 28-10-2022 12:25pm

One of my parents passed away at a young age, kept all the mass cards we received which were of great comfort at the time, kept them all for old times sake. Id occassionally send a Mass/Intention card for someone i know well and always well received from feedback.

Maybe younger people particulary here on boards just want a Whatsapp message or a tweet these days but theres a fair chunk of People still like the thought of someone going to effort of getting a mass card for them.

Graces7 · 24-11-2022 5:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/96932395#Comment_96932395

Your last sentence is quintessentially incorrect. The only reason these cards are sold and bought is for prayer. And you think they cost nothing? To produce etc.... and money is essential in every aspect of every life.

smacl · 24-11-2022 5:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119916644#Comment_119916644

Mod: Not much point responding to a post made seven years ago.

Graces7 · 27-11-2022 7:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/96931461#Comment_96931461

I have never bought a mass card. BUT I have countless times asked a priest to pray for me and never been refused. And being very practical, we all, priests included, have to eat , heat homes etc. I pray for folk by request daily but have enough for needs. Money is not contaminated!

joeguevara · 27-11-2022 8:24am

I suppose you could make the analogy with birthday cards. They don’t do anything specific but remember an occasion. Also it’s a good way of collating who gets the little bookmark with the photo etc to remember: they are solace to the grieving family of how the deceased was remembered. And handy cash for the parish.

martinedwards · 27-11-2022 9:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/96807571#Comment_96807571

Purgatory and limbo are RC theology. don't exist in the Bible, and as the protestant side are all about the bible as the starting point......

the ...less kind.... protestants would see them at best a money raising racket preying on the bereaved... and at worst, blatantly sacrilegious!

Praying for the dead?

not a thing we do as they've made their decision and when judgement rolls around they are judged on their condition at death.

Flinty997 · 27-11-2022 10:37am

What's the link between purgatory and mass cards. Or indeed saying a prayer or mass for someone.

joeguevara · 27-11-2022 11:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119926768#Comment_119926768

There is a form of purgatory ( more like state of intermediate between life and heaven) that the Protestants believe. It is essentially if you die in debt or insolvency, the ones you leave behind will have to pay it off. And the North Americann creed of Protestants do believe it because they are not bound by the reformation scripture.

and I’m presuming Mass cards could be purchased to buy people out of their wait in purgatory.

27-11-2022 11:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057485189/so-whats-the-point-in-mass-cards

Send me money , send me green

heaven you will meet

make your contribution and you’ll get a better seat

Flinty997 · 27-11-2022 11:56am

I can find no reference to purgatory and mass cards. Not something I've heard of ever.

I think people here are associating it with selling indulgences. Which is not the same. As there is no reward associated with a mass card that I'm aware of. It's just an acknowledgement.

joeguevara · 27-11-2022 12:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119927040#Comment_119927040

The purpose of Mass cards is to offer our prayers and good works for their complete purification. (Revelation 21:27 - Nothing unclean will be allowed to enter into Heaven.) One important side note: The purification process or Purgatory has nothing to do with one's salvation.

Flinty997 · 27-11-2022 12:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119927057#Comment_119927057

Do you have link to where that's defined.

So...whats the point in mass cards?

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