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The grant needs to go!

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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,064 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    No, you have to be scrapping a high mileage current PSV.



  • Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭gilleek2


    Ignorance. Got a taxi home the other day. He spent 30k on an Octavia (that didnt sound terribly healthy) and said there was no incentive to biy an EV. didnt want to suggest he may be wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭The Real President Trump


    Well with the jacking up in electricy price to 40 to 60 cent pet kwh, 20kwh per 100km that's 8 to 12 euro. A diesel will do that 100km for 10 euro without being hampered by range or time lost while charging

    The flexibility would put the diesel significantly ahead with far lower finance costs also



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,064 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    He/she can charge for 13.75c per kWh on night rate with Energia and significantly reduced public rates on the taxi only chargers.

    Also the benefit of reduced servicing and getting a brand new car on the road for mid teens means the cost of financing that diesel would be higher.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,504 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Guy hasn’t a clue , the NTA are offering huge grants to SPSV operators to switch to EV



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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The most environmentally friendly car is the car you already own. A huge part of the lifetime emissions of any vehicle are in manufacturing and disposal.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    This throwaway style comment has been proven to be incorrect a few times on the forum. A good example can be taken from Volvo's full lifecycle assessment of the XC40 https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119270669/#Comment_119270669

    The emissions of use far exceed the emissions of manufacture after a certain mileage. If you plot a graph for every vehicle there is always a point at which scrapping it today and replacing it with a cleaner to operate choice results in a reduction in overall emissions. The question is when this threshold can be met. It's really unfortunate that we don't have a grant system for conversion kits, as this would drastically swing the needle towards keeping the older vehicle but upgrading the drivetrain to a lower emission at use one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭The Real President Trump


    The mid teens ? ? ? You're gonna have to put up a worked example or I'm marking that down as bullshìt

    Night time is the busiest time, so they won't be there to charge then, sitting at a taxi only charger means no money is being earnt so that won't be happening either they just won't go to work at those quiet times



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,931 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Plenty of users here are on the Energia EV tariff from earlier this year with 12 months fixed price of 28c day 7c night. Myself included.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I should have said ‘generally’ so you’re right, it’s not an absolute rule. That Volvo case study seems to rely on making it to 200k IM’s, which is generally more the exception than the rule.

    The general principle still applies- we’re not going to buy our way out of this climate crisis with machines. We need fewer cars, fewer everything.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭The Real President Trump


    So you're using prices from the past that are not available to anyone currently, yeah that's a great way to back up a point alright 🙄



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,064 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Here’s some BS for you.

    I bought 3 eNiros from Pat in Kia Navan Road for €37,750 each last year.

    PSV EV grant €20,000. Scrapped the older cars (Prius) into N2 Auto Salavge for €2500.

    OTR price was €15,000 for a brand new eNiro.

    Any OI want a better one, bought one MG5 for €32000. Got the PSV grant I’d €20000 back and the scrapage for the 132 Prius of 1500 this time. OTR for €10,500.

    How’s that for BS 🤷‍♂️

    It’s no secret the available grants for PAV drivers. Infact, if you search enough, you’ll find my posts from last year and there’s some posters here who know me personally.

    With regards to working times, yes the busiest times are weekend nights. But the cars mostly work early morning. Airport and free now bookings. Maybe one night at the weekend. So the charge from the night before is sufficient.

    And the taxi only charger is a dam fast charger so a 20-30 minute down time wouldn’t be unusual to grab a tea go the toilet.

    So yes it can work in real life.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,931 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    12.75c is the currently available rate to anyone from Energia. He quoted 12.75, which is available. Yuuge.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Back to the grants:

    Grants as typically executed in Ireland are useless and mostly an impediment to achieving the objective. Which is to change the human behavior by stimulating demand through a reduction of the commodity' price. The reduction doesn't seem to occur because the grant is consumed by the seller and/or some middleman. The demand is not stimulated and the behavior isn't changed either. It's a grant but a failure.

    The best and cheapest subsidy is almost always a tax exemption, a tax credit or a waiver of a charge.

    In the case of EVs, where we (the state/people collectively) want to change the human behavior to reduce emissions/pollution, meet existing international commitments and make transport more sustainable, there's no need to reinvent the wheel. Just follow the Norwegian policies which have been tested and executed successfully.

    Waive motor tax, waive/reduce VAT, waive/reduce VRT for EVs. Increase/adjust the same for ICE.

    I could imagine a tax credit, but that's more difficult to administer. Tax exemptions at source is the best.

    Note: AFAIK 0 VAT is illegal under the EU treaties but a) Norway is doing it whilst in the EEA and b) Ireland is doing it for disabled drivers, so I'm pretty sure there's a way e.g. via an exemption which is a tax return, tax grant by the government so technically not 0% VAT.

    Pretty sure the Gov could do the exact same thing for EVs today...



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Btw EV sales and adoption are still so low in Ireland that the Gov could simply go for a full EV 0 VAT & VRT & Motor Tax, at least temporarily, and only have to marginally increase the VRT & Motor Tax for ICE to compensate.

    I haven't done the maths but it's no rocket science...

    There's some 2,200,000 cars in Ireland out of which 52,000 are EVs and 2,148,000 are ICE.

    Motor Tax EV waiver cost - 52,000*120 = €6.24M

    Motor Tax ICE increase to offset - €6, 240,000/2,148,000 = increase motor tax €2.90 avg per ICE per year. It's peanuts and here I'm assuming the Gov wants to be mean and zero sum.

    Nobody would notice 3 euro higher tax. Bump it up to €10 increase and you've a buffer for some 200k EVs free of motor tax free on the road.

    Monitor on quarterly basis and keep readjusting as the ratios change. Phase out as you reach milestones (52k isn't one).

    The same can be calculated for VAT/VRT examptions balancing EV/ICE just with new sales numbers not total car fleet.

    Irish gov don't need to be an Oppenheimer... But seems they have a) no goal/strategy and b) no clue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer



    Nobody would notice 3 euro higher tax. Bump it up to €10 increase and you've a buffer for some 200k EVs free of motor tax free on the road.

    They'll just leave the EV motor tax as is & bump up the other 2 million car owners' tax bill - handy €20 million 😀



  • Registered Users Posts: 65,320 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    I often wonder and find it incomprehensible that there aren't a few high level civil servant economists about with some persuasion skills who understand the least well known but most important one of the 5 basic principles of taxation and can convince front line smooth talking heads like ministers to implement these. For the benefit of all of us.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,715 ✭✭✭creedp


    Is there a warehouse full of lonely EVs pleading with the reluctant Irish public to buy? Are you proposing to retain the €5k grant as well as all these proposed tax exemptions?

    Seems to me that when there are a queue of people who would bite your hand off to buy a €60k EV, boosting demand isnt really the problem you have to solve.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Scrap the grant. Make it into a tax exemption or a tax return. Even worst case a tax credit. The grant is useless only serves the carmaker and car dealer lobby, but not the consumer.

    Simply - copy Norway, adjust for Ireland.

    There's no Irish solution needed. There's nothing that specific about Ireland (or any other EU country really).

    And yes, there are plenty of EVs around. It's about the suply and the demand. Suply is a bit constrained but not as much as you think it is. I can guarantee you that the market would adjust pronto if it saw an increased demand in Ireland due to policies, just like it did in Norway.

    168k EVs were sold in NO last year. Increased Irish supply can be met. 2.3M were sold in the whole EU.

    EDIT: Only 20k EVs will have been sold in Ireland this year. Plenty of room for carmakers to deliver if policies changed.

    Post edited by McGiver on


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭McGiver


    The problem in Irish Governance is very apparently - a lack of strategy and a lack of balls 😀.

    Usually lot of talking but scant of actions.

    Therer's no clear objective, or the objective is only a "talking point" with no strategy/action plan how to achieve it in reality, so the result is that it's clownish and everyone knows it's totally not feasible. You know, like the objective of 1M EVs by 2030 🤣... 5% of the target and only 7 years to go, everyone knows it's a delusion at this stage given that there are basically no incentives, no investment plans, no punitive taxes to deter from ICE or any sort of actions taken towards the goal. But they still keep peddling it. It's embarassing and insulting to people with above average IQ.

    Every Gov policy here is wishy-washy and no Irish politician has balls to tackle any sort of lobby on top (beef/agri, property/developers, carmakers, insurance cartels, you name it...)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Yeah a good one 😀

    But what is worse is that in reality they don't seem to even bump the ICE tax, which they could do very easily. So so easy to say "climate emergency", "climate commitment", "sustainability", "pollution" whatever. The Dutch and Norwegians have already done it and even the French are on track to do so.

    Why it hasn't been done here doesn't make sense. Motor Tax for a comparable ICE in NL vs here is 3 times higher in NL.

    I don't get it. Is there some fossil fuel/carmaker lobby at play here???



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,715 ✭✭✭creedp


    Ah well the one thing the Irish politician is good at is getting reelected and good luck to those who attempt to triple motor tax or introduce even more punitive taxes on the majority still driving ices. who are already experiencing a cost of living crisis so that a small number of predominantly better off car owners can be subsidised to drive around in expensive EVs. It's not as if EV are not currently pretty generously subsidised with a €5k grant for cars up to €60k and no VRT up to €40k. In the current climate introducing significantly increased tax reliefs for better off people to buy new EVs might not go down so well for the majority of people who will not benefit from them.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Can you expand on how you think a tax return or tax exemption would make any difference compared to the current direct grant.

    The only difference I see is that the grant applies to the purchase of any new zero emission vehicle by any individual. By switching to a tax credit system all you do is exclude customers who have not paid enough tax from the purchase incentive. The net result is exactly the same, the manufacturer will still inflate the price to include the incentive.

    The price inflation is by design, the goal is to reduce the number of new cars that emit CO2 into the Irish market. The Irish market is too small for any meaningful incentive to change the behaviour of manufacturers which means the only leaver we can push is to ensure that a given EV is sold in Ireland instead of one of the other EU markets. By increasing the margin in the Irish market, the manufacturer will sell their EVs in the EU market that gives them the highest margin. If we reduce the incentives that means either customers will have to pay a higher cost to maintain the margin or the manufacturer will sell to another country which doesn't help reduce our own countries CO2 reduction targets.



  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's not just emissions, it's the minerals to make the cars, the computer chips, the copper, steel, aluminium, all getting more and more expensive, the chips getting harder and harder to come by and there's the eventual what to do with the dead battery after EOL, and I mean EOL when it's not usable for anything any more.

    Emissions are part of the story.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,931 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Finally someone who gets it.

    We dont need any grant for EVs. You can't buy one right now, you need to queue for months. That is a supply constrained market. Grants are to increase demand!



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    EOL batteries are extremely recyclable after their automotive and then 2nd life usage, material recovery from them is in the high 90%'s. There's no question of what to do with them. The only reason we don't see large scale automotive battery recycling right now is the lack of batteries that have reached true end of life.

    As to the rest of the vehicle, the automotive industry has very high rates of re-use and recycling.

    The total weight of passenger cars, vans and other light goods vehicles scrapped in the EU in 2019 was 6.9 million tonnes; 95.1 % of the parts and materials were reused and recovered, while 89.6 % were reused and recycled.




  • Registered Users Posts: 65,320 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    No such thing as a dead battery. People are fighting over batteries when cars are end of life, they sell for top dollar on the likes of eBay. Even badly degraded batteries from early Leafs are worth a small fortune. And the move to LiFePO4 chemistry by several manufacturers basically means these batteries live for decades more.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    It's a commentary you often see, don't build BEV's because the batteries aren't being recycled.

    I always like to point out the concept of Reduce, Reuse, Recycle is in that order for a reason. I would argue we need to invest heavily in inter-urban charging infrastructure to reduce the primary demand and make smaller battery cars more viable, but the EV industry is doing great on re-using battery cells.



  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    At the price they want to charge for public charging ? not going to happen. It will only be 2 car households who that might appeal to. Electrics are getting too expensive for most People and now the likes of VW are stripping out kit on top of that.

    Most People won't want to pay high electricity costs for the inconvenience of having to wait at chargers and then if they are in use, broken, it's a pipe dream at present.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    The evidence of increased numbers of people charging, and increased sales of EVs doesn't agree with your statements.



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