You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the right.
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Well yes, the focus is on you seeing as you’re the person trying to warn people of the dangers of other people whose opinions and policies you claim are a threat to society. Why wouldn’t the focus be on examining you and your claims to determine whether there is any legitimacy in what you’re saying if you’re attempting to portray anyone as a threat to society?
I’m not the least bit offended that you don’t even want to acknowledge that it isn’t a counter argument I’m presenting, it’s the idea that you’re not any different from the people you claim are a threat to society by virtue of the fact that they imagine they know just like you do what’s best for society and they engage in the same sort of behaviour, only from the opposite perspective - portraying you and your opinions as the threat to society. I don’t think of you and your opinions as any sort of a threat to society. I think you’re as up to your neck entrenched in the culture wars as the small number of people whom you perceive to be a threat to society.
That’s not why I pointed out the futility of attempting to argue against a person when you don’t share their religious beliefs, it was to point out that you and they aren’t operating within the same framework. It stands to reason that people who don’t share your political views aren’t going to perceive other people in the same manner as you do, nor are they going to see the need to portray other people in the same manner as you do.
That’s why, while I got the reference, it was your attempt to attribute it to a broader group of people when in reality it was simply the utterance of one individual who most people even on your side of the Atlantic will never have heard of, let alone this side of the Atlantic. I think now you can appreciate why I was skeptical of your claims of what you were led to believe by any broad group of people when in reality those people who claim that sort of nonsense are in reality only a very small number in any given society, so small that they could hardly be perceived as a threat, and yet here you are amplifying and elevating their opinions to a status they do not have in reality.
In much the same way, some quarters in the media here tried to make a mountain out of a molehill here here when a priest in Kerry came out with similarly dumb shìt, and people tried to use it for their own political gain - rather than keeping it in perspective, they tried to suggest his opinions were representative of a broader group of people in Irish society, in the same way as you’re attempting to suggest anyone is using religion to control other people. It doesn’t seem possible in your world view that anyone who doesn’t share your perspective could have their own agency, which is why I suggested that given your approach, your attempts from your opening post up to now, 40 odd pages later, would come to nothing in your attempts to convince people of the threat to society posed by people whom you declare are a danger to society.
I don’t mind admitting that I’m not best placed to be in the middle of a conversation about modern day ideologies and how they are showcased and communicated in todays interactive environment, but then doesn’t your opinion of my lack of knowledge or understanding about the nuances of modern day ideologies and how they are showcased and communicated amount to the same position as I had previously summarised?
Essentially the whole thing can be summed up as “respect your betters” 😏
Of course from your perspective it stands to reason that I’m wrong about Hillary too, I need you to interpret it for me when Hillary refers to a whole group of people in society as a basket of deplorables. It’s not as though I’m capable of figuring out for myself whom she was referring to in the context in which she was speaking. In the same way, I’m capable of figuring out for myself whom you’re referring to in the context in which you’re speaking, and you don’t get to absolve yourself of taking responsibility for how your opinions are perceived, in the same manner as Hillary couldn’t blame Trump for how her opinions on people who don’t share her values were perceived. Here’s exactly what she said, in the context in which she said it -
You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. (Laughter/applause) Right? (Laughter/applause) They're racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic – you name it. And unfortunately, there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people – now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks – they are irredeemable, but thankfully, they are not America.
But the "other" basket – the other basket – and I know because I look at this crowd I see friends from all over America here: I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas and – as well as, you know, New York and California – but that "other" basket of people are people who feel the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures; and they're just desperate for change. It doesn't really even matter where it comes from. They don't buy everything he says, but – he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won't wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they're in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.
To suggest that anyone doesn’t understand what she meant or that they are interpreting her statement incorrectly, or they are simply wrong, is to be as condescending as she was being in saying what she said. It can be easier summarised as follows -
Essentially the whole thing can be summed up as “respect your betters” 😏
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I think you’re as up to your neck entrenched in the culture wars
- Brexit isn't a culture war, it's a fact.
- The climate issue isn't a culture war, it's a fact.
- The war in Ukraine isn't a culture war, it's a fact.
- Women losing access to abortions isn't a culture war, it's a fact.
You can dismiss my position as being focused on inconsequential hypotheticals within a vague 'culture war' if you want, I don't care. I've referred from the outset to such issues as these for the very reason that they are real and they are impactful.
In much the same way, some quarters in the media here tried to make a mountain out of a molehill here here when a priest in Kerry came out with similarly dumb shìt
That priest lead a group of people in commiserating with a sex offender in the courtroom which, if nothing else would have only ostracized his victim. What a messed up view to look at what he said recently and lay the blame on the media for covering it. Ireland has come along way from being run by the bigoted and harsh hand of the catholic church but as we saw with the children's hospital recently, there are still all too many attempts for them to retain an undue influence. Highlighting the unacceptable behaviour is exactly the way to prevent what might be a molehill becoming a bigger issue. The UK and the US are suffering now from giving fringe elements a voice because it was thought they were inconsequential, Ireland should make sure it doesn't fall in to that trap and a big step in not doing so is to call out the BS when it raises its ugly head.
I need you to interpret it for me when Hillary refers to a whole group of people in society as a basket of deplorables.
FFS, you literally posted text in which she said 'You could put half', so it wasn't the whole group was it? And that was prior to 2016, the fact that so many people went out and voted for him again in 2020 after everything he did while President, and the fact that he is apparently the Republican front runner for the nominee again in 2024 at this point, would suggest that she was telling the truth then as she was so often more in what she said about Trump during that campaign. I saw an image in relation to this earlier that was a poster at a protest that said 'Voting for Trump does not make you a racist, it does make you ok with racists though'. So let the people get offended, they've chosen their demi-God, ignorance is no longer an excuse.
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Brexit was not right wing. It was the same people that voted to join the EEC They were left and right. They voted to leave this time around. The old ageism came out after cant have old people voting.
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This thread's about the threat coming from the right wing. Who originated the anti-EU sentiment in the UK? Who created UKIP which split the, hmm, Conservative party? Who drove the messaging? The left in the UK? Look again.
As for who voted, it was a minority of the overall population, but more showed up to vote on referendum day. And the ones that were part of that vote that had voted to join the EEC at a much younger age, probably weren't as liberal minded in 2016 as when the EEC vote occurred in 1975
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You obviously DO care that people dismiss your concerns as being entrenched within vague culture wars which are pretty much played out online and have very little in the way of any real impact on people’s lives, or you wouldn’t have started a thread warning people of the dangers of dismissing what you see as issues that anyone who doesn’t already share your perspective should be concerned about.
The very title of your thread, and I’m sure you’re familiar with it already, but you warn people that they are looking in the wrong direction, that the dangers are coming from the right. News for you TMH as it still doesn’t appear to be sinking in even at this point - the way you perceive danger is the same way people who don’t share your perspective wish to promote as being values and policies which are worth promoting, protecting and supporting, in a democratic society. Why would anyone who doesn’t share your perspective see their own views as dangerous?
The priest wasn’t the point, the media amplifying what the priest had said, was the point. Giving him any airtime at all, was the point. The best way to have dealt with him, and I know of course you’ll disagree, is simply to deprive him of an audience, as a few of the parishioners in the church attending mass that day did - they simply walked out of the mass. No drama, no making a bigger deal out of it than it was. No trying to suggest that anyone who is a member of the Catholic Church shared his views. That didn’t stop RTE et al from trying to wangle an angle out of it to generate outrage and thereby revenue for themselves. Goodness knows traditional media needs it.
As for what you perceive to be ‘undue influence’, they maintain dominance in many aspects of Irish life, including healthcare, education, social services, rural and urban communities, hell now I think of it I had a bit of a chuckle and all at Josepha Madigan leading the congregation in celebrating mass, and the way RTE and the few media outlets again tried to make a mountain out of a molehill -
Gas woman 😂
You can fcuks sake all you like and all, but I’d already pointed out that the only thing Hillary said she had regretted about what she said, was that she said half -
Might have been possible to dismiss it as daft when Hillary said it the first time, y’know like when Biden said if you vote for Trump you ain’t black? (at least he didn’t say you ain’t a ‘person of color’! 😂), but when she doubled down on telling people who share her views that the people who don’t share her views aren’t American? She was just handing Trump the victory at that stage, because when was the last time you supported anyone when they’d made you aware they didn’t just think your values were deplorable, you’re not even American!
In much the same way, who are you to decide for other people that they’re looking in the wrong direction? Did it ever occur to you that they’re quite satisfied with the direction society is going, and aren’t particularly concerned by Chicken Little level displays of doom and gloom ahead coming from people whose perspective they really don’t care to share?
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You can fcuks sake all you like and all, but I’d already pointed out that the only thing Hillary said she had regretted about what she said, was that she said half -
Not sure she was wrong. Are you? Because clearly TFG enjoys their support and encourages it, as is being shown in his farcical defense of his meeting Nazi Nick Fuentes. TFG won't call him out, much like the 'fine people on both sides' statement from a few years ago.
But, back to this thread. Here we have an announced POTUS candidate actively currying favor with Nazis, having dinner with them. Is that a threat? What does the Nazi want in exchange for his support? And, is the Nazi on the right, or on the left. Really I still don't see what this is so hard, you're being nonsensical trying to turn this into a 'they don't agree with you that doesn't make it bad' discussion. Nazis are bad. Murderous racists are bad. They're on the right, and whoever leads the right in the USA (TFG), is o.k. with it.
The threat is coming from the right, get over it.
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Any threat to democracy comes from any form of extremism, irrespective of which side of the political spectrum it stems from.
History teaches us that. The problem is faith-based belief in an ideology and a wish to impose that ideology on the rest of society, often backed up by the threat of the law, violence, or both. We are already seeing the far-left, for example, wanting to impose hate speech legislation to shut down opinions they dislike. This is no different from what far-right authoritarians demand and deploy. The far-left also want us to suspend our understanding of science and biology; in the same way peasants in the USSR were demanded to believe in Lysenko's biology. So it works both ways, irrespective of the picture you've tried and failed to paint.
Any objective observer of today's political landscape can see that both extremes still exist, and both have their ardent supporters. We can also conclude that electorates have overwhelmingly and repeatedly rejected absolute extremism - again, from both sides of the political spectrum.
The fact that you want us to focus only and singularly on "Neo-Nazis" demonstrates a total and complete lack of objectivity on this question.
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I'm still waiting on democracy to collapse in America.
It's been promised for years now.
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For sure.
For all the talk about Trump and the far-right, it seems that whilst his policies and rhetoric may have "offended" some, there was no attempt to transform the US into some Neo-Nazi cesspit.
The US Constitution removed Trump, irrespective of his juvenile rhetoric about stolen elections and so on.
Whilst Trump was in power, he could have easily moved in some fascist direction. He didn't, because he isn't a fascist.
We are already seeing the same smears regarding Ron DeSantis. He has been repeatedly referred to on this and other threads as a "proto-fascist" i.e. a fascist in the making.
You almost have to laugh at these smears they're getting that ridiculous.
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It seems to be part of the American identity and culture to be dramatic and over the top about everything.
This feeds into the nonsense they talk about.
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And where do you think the threats to it are coming from, since that's the subject of this thread?
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No, she wasn’t right, and it was an incredibly stupid and condescending comment to make, but one which she knew would go down well with her audience. If Hillary were looking for deplorables, she need have looked no further than her own husband. If she were looking to become the next POTUS, she had it in the bag before she snatched defeat from the jaws of victory with her facepalm inducing comments.
Trumps popularity stems from the fact that he’s just trolling Democrats. He’s neither the least bit sincere, nor is he a threat to anyone but himself. There are Americans of all shades and stripes who are wont to take out their frustrations on the closest target, and none of them are particularly dangerous, regardless of their political views. They’re just embroiled in winding each other up while the vast majority of the population couldn’t care less for politicians obsessions with the culture wars.
I’m not trying to turn anything into a ‘they don’t agree with you doesn’t make them bad’ discussion, it’s even more simple than that - they’re as interested in promoting their own ideas and interests as anyone else, they’re not interested in whether they’re sexist or homophobic and “you name it” as Hillary contends. They’re interested in their religious freedom for one thing, not religious freedom as Hillary might understand it, but as Trump delivered on it.
So it’s fair to say at least that for those people who consider themselves left and liberal, it’s easy to see how they could see threats coming from the right, because they are, and for those people who consider themselves right and conservative, the threats are coming from the left. The difference between them literally is only one of perspective.
I’m not sure you mean to go down the quasi-religious route of telling people to listen and believe and that they need to accept your beliefs either. That kinda rhetoric takes long-term commitment, something neither lefties nor liberals are known for. Right leaning conservatives on the other hand - they can be fiercely stubborn bastards 😂
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And into the minds of many Irish people too. Many posters on this threads are no different than their American equivalents. Every piece of American hysteria gets imported by them, and we all have to deal with it as a consequence of that.
“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-
― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov0 -
I’m not trying to turn anything into a ‘they don’t agree with you doesn’t make them bad’ discussion, it’s even more simple than that - they’re as interested in promoting their own ideas and interests as anyone else, they’re not interested in whether they’re sexist or homophobic and “you name it” as Hillary contends. They’re interested in their religious freedom for one thing, not religious freedom as Hillary might understand it, but as Trump delivered on it.
But, are Nazis are interested in religious freedom? O.K. that was sardonic. But, is the religious freedom you suspect TFG supporters to be interested in, a threat? Certainly the old 'separation of church and state' gets them excited (in what seems a bad way to me, in that they'd like to remove it.) I'd view it as a threat, depending on what they intend to do (mandatory school prayer, subsidies for religious organizations, religious qualifications for employment, things like that.)
I agree, Hillary was a massively clueless candidate and deserved to lose. If the Republicans had nominated a more mainstream nominee, we'd not be here today I don't think. Maybe their candidate would have won the popular vote.
And, Hillary lost, so bringing her up is actually irrelevant to this thread - it's about where the 'threat' is coming from. I don't think the OP specified 'threat to what,' but let's keep this to US democracy. Is TFG a threat to Democracy, based on his actions and statements? Refusing to accept the election results and inciting a riot over them?
Or was that just 'trolling?' Because I think that's actually your point - the 'right wing' is just trolling, and the endorsement of Nazis that run people over in cars at protests isn't a threat to Democracy, just to human life. Do I have that right?
So it’s fair to say at least that for those people who consider themselves left and liberal, it’s easy to see how they could see threats coming from the right, because they are, and for those people who consider themselves right and conservative, the threats are coming from the left. The difference between them literally is only one of perspective.
For my edification, what threats to the right are coming from the left? Mail-in voting? Health care for all? Because I don't think it's one of perspective - it seems to be closer to a religious zeal on the part of the right. And as we know, religion has no basis in fact or reality, it's cults and opinions.
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How can one person know so little, and profess to know so much. The constitution did nothing to stop Trump, enough elected officials stopped him, despite others trying to help him.
We've all seen this picture, which was for sale in the US Holocaust Museum for several years, since 2003 I believe.
Now, you could argue the substantsiveness of this list, if you wanted to, I haven't ever really see anyone try to do so, but can you really look at that list and say that Trump isn't a bona-fide example of having most of these traits. I mean, if someone showed this to me without me knowing the background, and asked me to name a politician it applied to, he'd be the first person that would come to mind followed closely by his buddy in Russia.
And the smears aimed at DeSantis, as they have been, are similarly appropriate but he is not at the level of Trump yet. And hopefully will never get there.
A question you should maybe ask yourself in relation to both of these people, if they are categorically not fascist leaning as you claim, why are so many racists and fascists fans of theirs?
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What sort of culture leads people to not want to others to talk about a topic at all, but can't stop talking about the topic themselves?
You are wrong about the American identity and culture mind, you're clearly gauging it through the lens of whatever media it is you use to observe it.
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Why would anyone who doesn’t share your perspective see their own views as dangerous?
EV-I-DENCE
Brexit, Climate concerns, war in Ukraine, reduced healthcare etc etc are all present, real and impactful.
You're so busy trying to say I'm wrong, you're not even grasping what it is I am saying. We've had to watch thread after thread on here and elsewhere in the public discourse for the last few years focused on warning about liberal or progressive concepts or ideals and the dangers associated with them.
And in reality, right wing players are massively to blame for the above.
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Brexit was not right wing.
It categorically, most certainly was.
It would not have been voted for but for the messaging and campaigning by right wing players. Hell, it wouldn't even have been voted on but for the right wing agitator, Nigel Farage.
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I know for a fact two of the most prominent posters on this thread, me being one, live in the US.
And we saw the effects of American type hysteria in the last Irish Presidential election and that is partly why I feel it is necessary on here to provide a counter voice of that type of creeping extremism before it becomes a real problem.
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It's interesting that you take the title of this thread at face value and assign it as an unassailable fact.
The far right has always been a problem, but so has the far left. Only choosing to see problems with one of the two is pointless and achieves nothing.
Any issues that are raised showing the left or far left regimes to have been historically immoral or contemporary examples of the same are either dismissed out of hand or reassigned as actually being right wing (see the Chinese Communist Party for example).
I once had one poster on this site tell me that Soviet Russia only became a bad place for its citizens post WW2 even though from its inception there was constant human rights abuses mass murder and general misery and mayhem from day one.
In the end people pushing partisan agendas of any colour are typically grifters and have little knowledge beyond their own interests. This thread is a prime example of that.
It's interesting that we have an absolute lack of far right loonies in this site but we have any number of left loonies. Just for balance, were some whack job National Party supporter to arrive here spouting their Mein Kampf insanity I'd gladly tell than how stupid their opinions are as well, but we never see them because they're such a tiny minority of society that they ha e essentially no voice whatsoever, yet that's where all the threats to our society are supposedly coming from.
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And from your comments and other Americans here.
The most dramatic hysterical stuff usually comes from an America.
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We also had a poster on this thread claim repeatedly that Putin is Left Wing.
Aside from the thread title, the OP is quite detailed. Much more than is the case for most threads I think it is fair to say. In that I gave examples of the issues that are negatively impacting people, the same issues that I have referred to repeatedly throughout the thread.
And these are the issues that are impacting most of us who live in 'Western Society' which is where probably 99% plus of posters are, and they have come about because of right wing ideals and practitioners. (It's funny, nearly 1200 posts in and it was only a couple of posts ago that someone tried to say that Brexit is not actually an outcome of right wing ideals. That's clearly nonsense, but interesting it took that long for someone to claim it).
That is clearly what the thread is about, not the strawman argument that the Left is perfect now, or always has been.
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Now, you could argue the substantsiveness of this list, if you wanted to, I haven't ever really see anyone try to do so, but can you really look at that list and say that Trump isn't a bona-fide example of having most of these traits.
I have a post bookmarked of this... @Carfacemandog 100% of the credit. This was well articulated and patiently written. Sad since switching to vanilla boards has lost the several dozen likes/thanks on it.
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So, there are no threats then? I certainly didn't want to say it was unassailable, you raise a good point - are there any threats? I have identified a few, others have as well. Are there any in your view? And what are they threatening? Because I'm actually trying to get honest opinions as to what threats there are, and where they're coming from. I'm still at a loss as to what's coming from 'far left loonies.' But the right is in ascendance, at least in the USA, when it comes to threats (and loonies.) Maybe it's like Jack said, it's just trolling. Seems like an awful lot of energy and money spent on trolling though. They want to change US socieity.
It's interesting that we have an absolute lack of far right loonies in this site but we have any number of left loonies. Just for balance, were some whack job National Party supporter to arrive here spouting their Mein Kampf insanity I'd gladly tell than how stupid their opinions are as well, but we never see them because they're such a tiny minority of society that they ha e essentially no voice whatsoever, yet that's where all the threats to our society are supposedly coming from.
Absolute lack? There's always a few "Irexit/National Party" types showing up sprinkled throughout the site. There are regular posters on the CT forums that are holocaust deniers. The odd out-and-out anti-semite shows up, too. So we're not at the zero far-right loony level. I agree, it's low. And yes, there are left-wing loonies on this site. What are they threatening, exactly? Or in general? Most of the anguished discourse about that seems to be on threads about wokeism, green party policy and other stuff. I think one difference is that the types on the right are better rehearsed at claiming victimhood.
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The right gives itself a free pass on cancel culture again, this time targeting a russian vodka brand, Stolichnaya, that expressed unity with ukraine
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It's interesting that we have an absolute lack of far right loonies in this site
The fact that you removed this text from your post is telling. According to a poll on here at the time of the last election, Peter Casey was going to be the next Irish President.
We have had plenty of people who have advocated against medical advice when it comes to Covid, against scientific advice when it comes to the Climate, who are pro-Trump, anti-BLM etc etc etc. as others have pointed out, we've had the Ire-exit crowd on here also.
And the thread title refers to 'the dangers are coming from the right'. I didn't say then nor have I since that everyone who has these positions is 'far-right', but some of them most definitely are.
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Deleted because deep down they know the claim was total and utter horse ****. Congratulations are in order for succeeding at a roll for self-awareness.
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From an Irish point of view - American culture and hysteria.
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Can I ask why if you are so against everything American in culture, why is your name hotmail.com, the domain of a very american email service.
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