World Cup 2022 - discussion of the host country and related issues

Irish people went to America and South Africa to work too.

They were "a grand place" for some but not others.

North Korea is "a grand place" if you ask the people too.

"The research I have done" 🤣🤣

People in Qatar say they love it which must be taken at face value but people of North Korea nah.

Political parties are banned so you can hardly have a dissenting voice as a politician in the country. And expat residents are excluded from voting so that's 75% of the population without a voice.

It's just shocking that a World Cup can be held in a country where -

• the punishment for adultery is 100 lashes
• Adultery is punishable by death when a Muslim woman and a non-Muslim man are involved
• Stoning is a legal punishment
• Homosexuality is a crime punishable by the death penalty for Muslims

And that's just a select few.

Unfortunately the 'rules' happen to include simply existing for certain people.

It's quite a 'let them eat cake' point of view. And I think you'll find that your utopia is just a gilded cage for more than a few.

Three ex footballers walk into an ITV studio and discuss Qatar (non football issues) - De Jong - Wright -Neville

There were a lot of good points made by all three men. Better than Primetime / Questiontime.

But get the feeling Neville knows which side his bread is buttered, and is not willing to throw it away unless others do it first.

Not surprised they sang the national anthem today, probably have a gun against their families heads back in Iran. Terrible states of affairs

On itv commentary there 'the FA have lit up the Wembley Arch in the Rainbow colours this evening to show their support for the LGBT community' - that'll show them!!

Qatar should never have got these games, there was really blatant corruption in both their bid and the Russian one. Neither place is particularly welcoming to visitors either, and are not suitable really for Western visitors in big numbers.

That said, there is a moral question about ALL of these bidding processes for big international events, such as World cups, Olympics, and even Euro championships and the likes of Rugby World cups.

Olympic and World cups, dealing with FIFA and the IOC, are cesspits. The bribing is part of the game, the Germans did it for their World Cup, England did it (poorly and unsuccessfully) for their World Cup bids but led by a more savvy Seb Coe did it well for the London Olympics.

These events have probably outgrown what we in the West would normally accept. These organisations come in and governments (national or local, or both) have to guarentee and underwrite the events, paying millions and millions that could be better spent, and resulting in huge transfers of wealth from the public purse straight to private organisations and individuals,often with little or no oversight. Often the local laws are circumvented to allow the likes of FIFA and the IOC to operate in your country. They take the profits from the games, leave the country, and you're left with White Elephant stadia and a huge bill for the taxpayer.

It's becoming only dictatorships and non democratic states that can and will bankroll these events, they use them to 'sport wash', they can usually afford them, and even if they can't the public has little or no way of protesting about it. It's nothing new, think the 1936 Olympics, Idi Amin in Zaire for the Rumble in the Jungle in the 70s,lots more examples too of you think about it.

What can we do - it's up to yourself I guess what you want to do. If you watch no sport that involves any corrupt entity, any nation state with dodgy human right credentials, or any record of corruption eg financial or doping, then guess you'll not be watching much sport on TV - soccer/boxing/golf/cycling/athletics/tennis to name a few.

It does leave a bad smell though, I certainly don't get the same enjoyment from the Olympics as I did when I was younger, and the last 2 World cups now are the same. I do watch them, but not to the same extent as before.

This is from a few days ago John Barnes take on Qatar (non football) articulate and considered as usual. Terrible football predictions though.

Good line from Barnes ‘fighting discrimination is not part time or only when the cameras are on.’

And ‘Society changes peoples beliefs views not football’

Here’s a great analysis of why the Western view of the world and the Islamic view of the world clash on LGBT.

It is by a explained by a non-Muslim from a purely philosophical/theological standpoint

No it is not. Most of the attacks are Qatar based. There is no look at the whole belief system. The good and bad of the Muslim lifestyle. Islam means peace. I know when non-Muslims think of Islam first thing they think of is ISIS jihads extremist fringes. But that is not the case overall. Those are extremists. I have already mentioned how Iran want a more secular friendly government.

But that the historical mess was caused by Western imperial influences in the first place. If there was no American instigated coup in 53. Iran might still have a more open Muslim and democratic country today. But I don’t hear it mentioned in the media. It appears to have been forgotten about

The West is still basically trying to force their belief system on just Qatar - but Muslim countries but it is their lifestyle choice.

People seem to think Qatar’s can just abandon their Muslim faith and Laws. They have already relaxed lots of things in their society for Westerners. Dress codes allowing to purchase alcohol and so on. The fact is Qatar is one of the most open Middle Eastern Muslim country in the Middle East, and is a close strategic ally of Britain/USA.

There are some things in the belief system in Qatar that cannot change. Otherwise they stop being Muslim in the eyes of the vast majority of Muslims.

Also Muslims have strict views on the heterosexual lifestyle as out of wedlock is viewed as a major crime/sin. But Muslim men can have up to four wives. So it can’t be all bad.Different culture to many Western countries.

I have a cousin who is married to a Muslim woman from a Muslim country now in Australia. Her family have disowned her because she married a non Muslim that is wrong as well in my opinion. Particularly as she now lives in a non-Muslim country Australia.

But I have also come across a non fully practising Muslim (Pakistani) living in Ireland for decades married to an Irish non Muslim.

She has a much more relaxed attitude and so does her family. But even so finds it difficult to do Ramadan in Ireland- time difference fasting etc.

But she does not wear a hijab and has fully embraced the Irish pub culture. She is more Irish than Muslim Pakistani at this stage.

But it again comes down to clash between individualism v a lifestyle choice based on Islam. And cultural differences in a Muslim country.

Even things like having a separate entry gate for men and woman can be viewed as discriminatory or ‘disrespect’ to non Muslim Western eyes. But to a practising Muslim Woman they view it as a respect of boundaries, a safe space.

There lies the dichotomy of cultural differences which Westerners many don’t seem to grasp.

Stepping away from your own personal views/theories there, I don't think the kid in the video said anything that isn't commonly known and understood... I don't think anyone thinks Qatar is homophobic just as some random abstract policy, I think everyone is aware it's because it's rooted in their faith and belief systems being fundamentally built into their system of governance - not much different from our own anti-homosexuality laws being firmly rooted in Catholicism until 1993. (I also really wouldn't agree that; "I know when non-Muslims think of Islam first thing they think of is ISIS jihads extremist fringes.")

Why does it upset you so much? This is quite a few times you've brought it up... it's less than 5 seconds, and obviously sparks a certain awareness of anti-racism given that it puts it into your own mind each and every time and provokes enough of a reaction in you to post about it.

I would entirely agree that it doesn't go anywhere near far enough, but ultimately what's the point in complaining so much about a small gesture for a positive cause?

Also it makes total sense it's just these countries doing it... it was conceived and enacted by players in the British leagues (by our own Didsy McGoldrick no less), so unsurprisingly they're the ones that do it.

The act that you see in football matches, of kneeling just before the game kicks off, was Didsy McGoldricks idea. He is the reason you see it happening in football. Obviously the basic gesture itself is something he drew from, from Kaepernick in his case.

It's interesting your position seems to have changed from it being a hollow gesture, to it being a specific motion that you personally don't like.

Everyone knows exactly what it means, everyone knows that it is a clear anti-racist movement in this context, and in that it does exactly what it is trying to do very successfully. They have been very consistent and very clear on exactly what the gesture is for; "This wasn't about politics,' said McGoldrick. 'It wasn't about anything other than showing the players were together. All races, all backgrounds, all nationalities, all religions, all coming together to say no to racism. That was the main concept behind it.'" - and if you choose to read other things into it, that's kinda on you.

Okay - to segue away to a point you raised - It sounds like you don't understand that group using the specific language Black Lives Matter. That group's purpose is specifically calling attention to discrimination against Black people in the US, which is obviously a specific form of racism, given that it's built upon their specific race historically being legally classified as second class citizens. Black people, specifically, were officially legally valued as 3/5's of a white person in the American constitution ("the three-fifths clause"). Their relationship with the US is not the same as other races.

Of course all lives matter - that's not the point - in this instance the attention needed to be called towards that specific group, where so many US institutions simply didn't update their policy and behaviour to take into account that Black people were now granted equal status. Again - the systems were specifically built with Black people being seen as legally inferior. That language is used to call attention to that specific issue within the specific case of the United States of America. Think of it this way - if there's a house on fire, and someone is outside watching for the fire brigade, pointing and shouting "this is the house!", your 'every life matters' position is the equivalent of someone coming out to whinge that "All houses matter". Of course all houses matter, but this specific house is currently on fire and needs it's own specific attention right now.

Now, for the gesture, BLM and the footballers both independently adopted a gesture that was a well established and easily recognisable sign of public protest, already in the public eye. It was simple branding by both parties to use it for their own messages (which in both cases were different to Kaepernicks own specific message). Once BLM also started using it, the footballers further clarified that they were in no way connected to any political message, and made their position crystal clear. As I said, if you're finding further issue with it, that's on you - their position couldn't be clearer.

Ultimately, it seems pretty clear your issue is not actually with the 'hollow gesture' you kept complaining about - it would seem to be with Black Lives Matter... which I'm not sure is all that relevant over here. If you have an issue with the clear and simple anti-racist message the players are making, then we can talk about that, otherwise, it's probably a conversation for another forum.

I would agree with most of that. Except that the gestures such as BLM makes racists uncomfortable.

I would argue it does something worse, it makes different races uncomfortable among themselves, through pantomime. And trivialises an issue into an empty ultimately meaningless gesture. There have been black footballers who see it for the farce it is, such as John Barnes and Wilf Zaha.

Then it puts White footballers in a position where they are forced to go along with the crowd even if they think it is stupid, Because if a white footballer did not take a knee suddenly he would be branded 'racist' by certain quarters.

So we get the farcical situation where the 'taking the knee' thing continues. Because teams who have done so are now put in position where if they don't do it, will mean they condone racism? And they would get castigated by the media.

But the reality is the whole thing is an American invention which stems from a militant political strand in America, And as usual many simply blindly follow America without putting any real thought into the broader societal picture. That is how real change happens. Not meaningless gestures.

You say you don't agree with Qatar's methods yet you go on to justify them. "It is like a more extreme version of Irish supermarkets bringing in seasonal workers from poor European countries"... same except for the withholding of passports, the 400-500 deaths of migrant workers in the building of the stadiums, etc. Also, let's go back to the imperialist system of lashing offenders like in the 1800's. Brilliant.

No need to go back to the imperialist 1800s, plenty of kids received lashes in Irish primary schools for minor indiscretions into the 1980s. Good auld corporal punishment, its what made us what we are today

Not justifying them all but I have to admire the way they keep things in line. Compared to the amount of gougers Dublin has. Most people are uneasy walking down O’Connell street.

Capital punishment is another thing I would agree with. I believe it was only 30 years or so that it was removed from the statue books as punishment for killing Gardai.

One issue I have with Qatar and the poor/unskilled migrant workers from Nepal/Bangladesh/ India etc. Why do the communities not engage in 'due diligence' before they go to Qatar?

Wouldn't you think lads from their villages or neighbouring villages would inform lads who are thinking of going there? Much like how Irish unskilled 'paddies' were set up with a foreman/contact by fellow countrymen that already have been there on the sites in the UK/USA back throughout the decades.

The lads who come back would know which building contractors are decent salts, or the chancers. Wouldn't you think the Nepalese/Bangladeshi equivalent of Seanie Óg and Séan Bán would have had a conversation in the village?

You "admire the way they keep things in line", and are a fan of capital punishment....

...oooookay. I'm not sure your vision for a world is one i'd much fancy living in 😅

Where did. I say children? I never said that.

America has an absolute abundance of problems. I've lived in the US for a decade, and have massive issues with the place. Loads of things need vast improvements, changes, or entire rebuilds, and they definitely need to be talked about. And four years from now, people will be free to criticise them, to question every part of every policy, and they can do it publicly from within the country, or on American TV, without any fear of being silenced or sanctioned by the state. That's the all important difference.

Another Vlog here from Qatar. This time from a Birmingham city fan, from England.

He is seen having the craic in Qatar. Loads of different nationalities and cultures mixing. Various different states of dress of the nationalities based on their cultures. A nice relaxed vibe on the beach.

And there is a very happy ‘migrant worker’ taxi driver in the video as well.

The narrator points out a few times that the Western media would not show people enjoying themselves and nationalities mixing.

Mainly, because it thrives on creating division. In other words, division sells.

The other point he made was only for the WC he would never have travelled to Qatar, and experienced the country.

Oh and one final thing. Before you watch the video, have a guess what the price of a litre of petrol in Qatar is equivalent to In Sterling….

You left out one crucial point those alleged issues are not Qatari ones but Iranian political issues. Which I already said a few times stem from American interference in 1953 which overthrew a democratically elected government in Iran. Which as everyone knows resulted in a Shah puppet supported by America.

Only overthrown by a Muslim Cleric type leader. I lay the blame at America as much as the current Iranian leadership. At the current Iranian situation. But I fail to see how this situation can be blamed on the Qatari’s.