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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭All_in_Flynn


    Lowe for me is our number 1 winger by a fairly clear margin. He is very important to how we play. He is such a clever player with ball in hand and is an animal in contact. He might not have top end pace over 50-100 yards but he's explosive over 20-30.

    Him and Hansen have the wings fairly locked down I reckon barring injury.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    I like the balance of one traditional, strike running winger (Conway, Earls, Baloucoune) and one auxiliary playmaking winger (Lowe, Hansen, O'Brien).

    Lowe IMO is the best at the latter by a distance and if he's fit, he'll start. For some reason Hansen performs much better on the left wing. So for me it's him or Lowe, not both.

    Conway would be my preference at 14, but he's been out injured for a long time and he's getting on a bit now. So whether he'll get back to the level he was at last season is a big unknown. I really like Baloucoune and would like to see him given the amount time Lowe got, as I think he has a huge upside. But he's quite injury prone and has had a worryingly high number of hamstring injuries. Earls is a legend but there's obvious question marks over him, being the age that he is for a winger. If he's playing well I'd have no qualms with his inclusion.

    It's not an area of strength for us. We've not produced a world class winger since Tommy Bowe. Our wingers tend to be functional rather than outstanding game breakers. I know it's a very unpopular opinion but I'd still like to see Ringrose given a go there, given how stacked we are with quality in the centres. He tore the Sharks to pieces there a few weeks ago. I know he's an outstanding 13 but sometimes you need to look at your resources and cut your cloth accordingly. Because we don't have any wingers who'd frighten any tier 1 defense.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    If Lowe and Hansen are first choice, I definitely think Conway will be closest to getting back in. Quality player and Farrell seems to be a fan.

    I’d argue it’s a position of strength in that we don’t have a massive drop off from the first choice guys. We don’t have any wingers who would threaten a world 15, but we’ve about 5-6 or more I’d be pretty comfortable with starting.

    We could easily end up in a situation where none of Larmour, Stockdale, Baloucoune or Earls make the RWC squad, for example. That said, I think we probably need one of Hansen or Lowe to start.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Lowe is a very good player but vital?

    Ireland just won 3 on the spin without him including beating the current World Champions. Let's not over state his importance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    He's vital in that I don't think Ireland can implement their sweeping plays without him. Sexton is obviously the most important component, but a lot of emphasis is placed on other players stepping in at first receiver. As stated earlier, Lowe adds so much variation to Ireland's attack that we just aren't as threatening without him.

    Ireland has an excellent starting 15, but for it to come together we rely on our back three to act as auxiliary playmakers. Lowe is by far the best in that regard.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,631 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    I dont think any of our wingers are good enough to be number 1 by a clear margin



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,571 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I think it would be Conway + Lowe, all healthy. But, no one guaranteed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭Shehal


    Exactly.

    The only absolutely vital players are Furlong & Sexton.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Strongly disagree that we depend on Furlong and Sexton for success.

    Carbery and Crowley have the talent to play 10, and Bealham and O’Toole are good enough, with Marty Moore and John Ryan as backups.

    This idea that we need everyone available to have any chance is a bad mentality. We have plenty of options in every position, and it’s too easy to say we have no chance in the 6N without X player etc, when it will then be proven otherwise and said poster will then admit they were wrong, so what at that point, it’s such a common line it’s become a cliché at this point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,571 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Without Sexton, we won't go far. Carberry isn't good enough! Crowley is a work in progress.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The gap between first choice and second choice is pretty narrow in most positions. I'd have no real fear Bealham stepping in for Furlong.

    The exception is 10. There is a gulf there and its an unavoidable risk at this point.

    I'd say the second biggest gap is probably 9 which is also a concern. JGP had a so so November but his second half against the Saffers was the best bit of rugby from a scrumhalf this year by a margin.

    Our pack is in great shape overall and that gives me confidence going into a world cup year. Mid field and back three also building good depth. Really just the half backs situation that is a concern generally.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Andy Farrell knew all along that Sexton would be 38 coming into the World Cup, so I would be astounded if he hasn't devised a strategy that we will see come more and more into our play where the 10 is less essential to the game plan.

    I appreciate Sexton is a great player when he is on song, but he has a lot of games where is is average to poor, so the gap isn't that huge really, and in fact I could see the likes of Carbery or Crowley, or Harry Byrne, stepping in and actually being better than Sexton.

    If Sexton gets to the World Cup in good nick and is performing at his best, then great, if he's not then the next player in should take his place. There should be no place for anyone that is underperforming, the team is stronger than that in every position.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    With regards 9, I'm hopeful Casey will be Munster's defacto starting 9 in the big games this season. We know about his pass quality and tempo, but I feel he has significantly improved his exit and box-kicking in the last year also.

    Murray showed his quality against SA, but if Casey goes well against the likes of Toulouse, I could see him pushing himself into 2nd spot for Ireland.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I appreciate Sexton is a great player when he is on song, but he has a lot of games where is is average to poor, so the gap isn't that huge really, and in fact I could see the likes of Carbery or Crowley, or Harry Byrne, stepping in and actually being better than Sexton.

    This is utter nonsense. He was largely excellent this year, which obviously culminated in a World Player of the Year nomination.

    Carbery has never, ever shown a capability step in for Sexton for Ireland and not see Ireland's team performance decline.

    It is way too early to hope that either Crowley or Byrne could even come close to filling that shirt, and you're putting utterly unrealistic ambitions on both in this current timeframe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,987 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Sexton is by some distance our most important player and the gap to the next guys is a chasm.

    I'm very reassured by Bealham lately so it may well be Porter who's next most important.

    After that, I think we have viable backups in every position.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,590 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


     so I would be astounded if he hasn't devised a strategy that we will see come more and more into our play where the 10 is less essential to the game plan.

    we've already seen that.

    the development of our attack since 2020 is to take less pressure off our 10 always being the playmaker, and we are bringing in our wings and full back to step in as playmaker or pivots in midfield. its the main reason Lowe and Hansen are the incumbent 6 nations wingers, with keenan at 15


    as far as there not being a wide gap from sexton to the next best 10, you must be the only irish fan to see this. we've tried all our provincial out halves at test level and none come anywhere near sextons current level of performances.

    eventually sextons performances will drop, that is inevitable... but its a damning indictment on the quality of the other established 10s that none have come anywhere close to dislodging a 37 year old. on the likes of crowley, and H Byrne to a degree, they have loads of promise which i hope they continue to develop into, and then become the long term irish 10. so far though, that only wishful thinking.

    Post edited by sydthebeat on


  • Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Correct, Sexton is our only vital player.

    Everyone else can be replaced without too much issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,840 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    & Porter

    & JGP

    Lowe is vital/integral in the sense that he is the only left footed winger Ireland have who can do all of the following to a very high level: smash the ball downfield, come in at first receiver, make gain line, offload, play what's in front of him.

    Plus he is surrounded by other Leinster players. In particular, JGP, Keenan and of course Sexton. I think that is a significant and he regularly swaps positions with Keenan when in their own half and also links up really well with JGP.

    He was badly missed against France last year in attack and also kicking for territory. France regularly kicked long to Hansen/Conway, Keenan and JGP and Ireland lost field position and didn't even look to counter attack.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,054 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Carbery and Crawley may have the talent but they won't bring what Sexton does and without JS we are majorly disadvantaged. Far more than losing players in other positions. At tigthead many of theose you name would do a job bit bring nowhere near what furlong does and to do what we haven't in a world cup it needs the two fo these fully fit.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,590 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    id argue that Keenan has actually become very important as well. Even though we have plenty of players who can step into the 15 shirt quite readily, i dont think we've any player who can replicate the consistency of his performances. To call them error free does him a bit of a disservice.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,987 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    But while we have many good backups, they're not that good that we can lose more than 4 or 5 of the first XV and not see a drop in performance.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Be interested to know what games you thought he was average to poor in. On occasion maybe average by his standards but even at that still one of the best 10s in the world and by far the best 10 in Ireland.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I was really impressed with Casey against Connacht and mentioned in the Munster thread that he was playing with a level of authority and control that was very promising from a young player. Being in Ireland camp can have a big impact on some players and this seems to have proved true for Casey.

    I'm still mindful of Murray's performance against England in the six nations last year. We just couldn't game manage with our scrum in trouble and Murray coming on, managing the tempo and territory expertly really turned that game around for us. Not sure Casey quite has that in his game yet so hopefully he gets plenty of starts in Europe and Six Nations and no doubt being around Murray at Munster must be huge for his development regardless.

    As for Murray against SA - I thought he had a mixed game, decision making mostly solid but execution and accuracy let him down a bit. Both teams were getting away with being offside so I think both sets of halves were under pressure - Sexton had a few wayward passes and got caught on the gainline so it wasn't just Murray.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    That's the point, any team in World Rugby that loses 5 players from their strongest lineup will struggle to perform at the same level enough to win a World Cup.

    Missing 1 or 2 players should not make any difference, or at least so small a difference that it shouldn't be the deciding factor.

    When you take a step back and look at our team, our strength is in our tenacity and work-rate in the pack, and the slick passing in our backs at a fast tempo.

    Watching Ireland in this Autumn series it was evident that we have the best back-line plays in World Rugby right now. I didn't see any other team come close to the level of detail the Irish team are exhibiting on a regular basis.

    And on top of that, we have the adaptability to play in different ways, have different players take leading roles, and our defence is cohesive and formidable, both in tackling and fielding.

    I would put our team on par (if not superior) with France, England, South Africa and New Zealand in respect of those qualities.

    Other teams have different strengths such as their front row or their second row or their wingers, but overall as a package Ireland are more than capable of beating any team in the world at the World Cup.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I thought Carbery was very good against France away last year and if he can replicate that kind of performance I wouldn't have too many concerns.

    The biggest issue with Carbery is that as much as people are concerned about the ability of a 38 year old to weather a World Cup schedule - the reality is that Carbery is a lot more prone to injury despite not being nearly as physical or abrasive as Sexton is, particularly in defence which has become a targeted weak spot for Carbery (as further evidenced by Aki at the weekend).



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    I haven't kept a log, just noticed it. What's his kicking % like recently, my impression has been that he's missed a lot of shots at goal lately.

    And from here on until next September you can guarantee he will be under the microscope with Andy Farrell.

    We'll see how he bounces back from his current injury.

    Personally I wish he will return in top form and continue on to the RWC that way, but let's be clear, anything less than that and other options should be used, particularly those with more pace. At 37/38 pace is one thing that will inevitably decline.

    Same issue happened with Rory Best last time around. The selector should have been more ruthless at the time and selected Herring ahead of him.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Watching Ireland in this Autumn series it was evident that we have the best back-line plays in World Rugby right now. I didn't see any other team come close to the level of detail the Irish team are exhibiting on a regular basis.

    Puzzled a bit at this take - while the backs looked great in NZ, I would say probably our biggest weakness in the Autumn was our shape and cohesiveness in attack. Part of that against Australia was the late disruptions to the team etc, and another big factor IMO is the absence of Henshaw.

    Our best try of the Autumn series, Mack Hansen's effort against SA, came from broken play. It was very well executed, with multiple players (forwards and backs) showing some lovely handling, but wasn't a structured or detailed play.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    VDF is probably a vital player as well really. Best player in the world currently and even though we've some good open sides knocking about, bone are on his level.

    It's a similar story with Doris. We've a lot of good number 8's in Ireland, but his performances over the last 12 months are head and shoulders above anyone else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,840 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    There are very few teams that can say that. And I doubt Ireland is one of them!

    The backups for these positions would have a significant impact on the quality and cohesion:

    1,3, 9, 10, 11 (arguable ok) and 15 - I suppose we should include the World Player of the Year...and Beirne....and Dorris!

    9 RWC’s and 6 have been won by a team that only had to make a max of 1 change to their XV

    It’s fair to say Ireland will not be winning a WC relying on their backup players to start a WC KO round.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    '19 SA started the same XV in their KO games

    '15 NZ started the same XV in their KO games except LH

    '11 NZ started the same XV in their KO games except LW AND 10

    '07 SA started the same XV in their KO games except TH

    '03 Eng changed 15, 14, 12, & 1 in their KO games

    '99 Aus started the same XV in their KO games except No.8

    '95 SA changed 14, 12, 10, 8 & 5 in their KO games

    '91 Aus started the same XV in their KO games except No.7

    ’87 NZ started the same XV in their KO games except No.7



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  • Subscribers Posts: 41,590 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Sextons all time stats for kicking is 79% for Ireland and 91% for leinster... According to statbunker



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