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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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    #18452
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119938962#Comment_119938962

    I do often wonder do people actually read, or just run on personal belief mistaking the thoughts in their heads for facts and see what they want or need to see? There wasn't anything close to a big increase in the 70's and nothing like the increase post '95. It's literally in the graph in front of your eyes. The 1980's? Good lord man the 1980's in Ireland is renowned for the number of people leaving the country not arriving. In 88 alone over 70,000 people left and our population growth flatlined and stayed that way until the mid 90's. These are facts, not opinions or because you happened to know a handful of people in your neighbourhood.

    Who all came here above board and legally BTW, not seeking "asylum" ripping up their passports on the tarmac of Dublin airport. Nobody on this thread objects to such people. There was one guy in my year at school whose family had fled as refugees. He was a major outlier. His dad was even interviewed by press and radio. One of the biggest refugee crises of the 70's into the 80's were the Vietnamese so called "Boat People". Around a million in number. Do you know how many Ireland took? 200. And that was after international pressure was brought to bear.

    Look at the graph for percentage of population. 5/6% in 95 and had been stable at that level since 1970. By 2000 it had near doubled and doubled again by 2005. The graphs couldn't be any clearer or as plain as the nose on one's face bloody obvious. Immigration into Ireland was low, flatlined in the 80's into the mid 90's and then went rapidly north after that, after our economy went up, not when we were smoking Majors in Nissan Datsuns*. And mass. So no, I'm afraid you're still talking utter nonsense.




    *Datsun are Nissan. You seem to have this odd idea of thinking we were all Major smoking rosary bead polishing potato munchers before the wonders of multiculturalism came along to save us from ourselves(yet at the same time there was a "big increase" in the 70's which apparently did nada..). Unfortunately for this idea actual history and facts show we had left that stereotype before we ended up with multiculturalism.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #18453
    ArthurDayne
    Registered Users Posts: 1,762 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119938286#Comment_119938286

    To be part of the problem or part of the solution is a choice everyone makes. Unless you want to advocate actually deporting the entire Roma community, then you can either sit around endlessly cursing the Roma, or take the pragmatic personal step (no changes needed to you as a person) of actually trying to empathise and better understand the sometimes complex facets in play as to some of the challenges faced by the Roma community in terms of poverty, education and marginalisation.

    This Roma community Needs Assessment is a reasonable place to start: https://www.paveepoint.ie/project/national-roma-needs-assessment/ . It's better (not just in terms of empathy, but in terms of logical pragmatism) than just writing an entire community off.



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    #18454
    Nosler
    Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭Nosler


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119938214#Comment_119938214

    I've not said anything about stopping EU freedom of movement....

    If Ireland wanted to encourage "highly qualified european talent" it should do something about extortionate rents... Ireland should start deporting people that have nothing to offer. That way rents go down and Ireland is more likely to get "highly qualified European talent". No on wants to spend a 1000 euro a month on a houseshare.

    Your argument for the Roma is to help them integrate? Do you think they want to integrate into Irish culture? Roma dont come to Ireland because they like Irish culture or Guinness. They come to Ireland for the free money and houses.



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    #18455
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119939352#Comment_119939352

    It's an uncomfortable truth for many to hear, but you're bang on.

    We need to leave our emotions and fake empathy at the door, and simply do the right thing - even if that means upsetting the party of the permanently offended.

    We're full. It's about time this government or the next one does something about it - proactively. Though I may as well be whistling in the wind because there's a cat's chance in hell of anything changing.



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    #18456
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,130 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Star Bingo threadbanned



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    #18457
    McHardcore
    Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭McHardcore


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119934848#Comment_119934848

    Yep, you are right. Migration helps technological progress and improves the economy. From an OECD report:

    image.png

    The IMF similarly reported that "migration generally improves economic growth and productivity in host countries".

    image.png




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    #18458
    xxxxxxl
    Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119935196#Comment_119935196

    Where will they live ?



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    #18459
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 25,265 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119938300#Comment_119938300

    We import goods, services, ideas, information and people.

    import has several definitions…”to bring or convey from a foreign or external source”…being one dictionary definition… it’s a common term in business speak and in general and can be applicable to what we are discussing…. As it relates to a great movement of people from a great distance..

    i don’t think anyone is being dehumanised by the usage of said verb in its intended meaning in fairness.



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    #18460
    Nosler
    Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭Nosler


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119941783#Comment_119941783


    Does immigration make the average Irish person richer though? We all agreed that immigration makes the Irish economy bigger, however since there are more people in Ireland the economic "cake" is spread between more people and each person gets a smaller slice of cake.....

    India has a larger economy than Ireland. However since india has a larger population the average indian is poorer than the average irish person.... unskilled immigration makes irish people poorer...

    How many immigrants help "technological progress"? Again, we all agree that some immigrants are highly skilled etc working in universities etc. However that type of immigration is hardly representative....



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    #18461
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119942917#Comment_119942917

    Well that's the bait and switch of course. Pretty much nobody taking issue with legal managed immigration, point to legal managed immigration as being good, avoid too often illegal unmanaged immigation and the obvious issues that brings with it.

    Even in the pics included: "In Australia, Canada and New Zealand, managed labour migration plays an important role, other sources include...". And by the by Australia, Canada and New Zealand are significantly in more control of their immigration than Ireland is. Australia toughened up a few years ago when they had their own version of "people fleeing tyranny on boats", including tragic mass drownings. Now they intercept them at sea and either take them back whence they came or put them in offshore camps to process them. Not exactly ideal, however the numbers fell off a cliff, mass drowning all but stopped and those that do claim asylum in said camps 90% are deemed genuine. Compare and contrast with our numbers. New Zealand is even harder to get into and not just by virtue of geography.

    Note too how we got a snapshot of the page, not the whole page or link to it. Here it is for those who want to read the whole document(PDF, very short). And the conclusions are not nearly so clear, but on the matter of migration and benefits, the bold text from the article is the important part.

    The proportion of highly educated immigrants in OECD countries is rising sharply. The number of tertiary-educated immigrants in OECD countries showed an unprecedented increase in the past decade (up by 70%), reaching a total of almost 30million in 2010/11. Of these, about 5 million, or 17%, arrived in the past five years. This trend is mostly driven by Asian migration–more than 2million tertiary educated migrants originating from this region arrived in the OECD in the past five

    Nobody objects to them. Georgian, Romanian, African, Albanian scammers ripping up ID's on the other hand...

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #18462
    0ph0rce0
    Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭0ph0rce0


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119941783#Comment_119941783

    In proper countries that's how it works. They take in migrants that are needed.

    We have a good crop of educated migrants.

    But we seem to get a huge number of freeloaders.

    "Migrants contribute more in taxes than they receive in benefits"

    With the current influx (maybe classed as refugees or asylum seekers) but I still keep hearing we need all these people to do low paid jobs. So minimum wage jobs where the average person will pay about 1500 euro in tax a year.

    But they need a house, they need family income supplements, they need child benefit, they need medical cards, free education... The list goes on.

    The cost in benefits far surpasses their contribution.

    A house alone for 50 a week and their contribution in taxes would take 2 generations before the government recouped the money assuming the kids work minimum wage through their lifetime. Then you add on all the other benefits.

    How does that improve the public purse?



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    #18463
    Fandymo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943950#Comment_119943950

    You’ll get 2 answers to this, the Irish emigrated or they pay us back in the exotic food they bring. That seems to be the only arguments the far left have.



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    #18464
    Marcos
    Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭Marcos


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944315#Comment_119944315

    Or "You're a vile racist" for even bringing up the question.

    When most of us say "social justice" we mean equality under the law opposition to prejudice, discrimination and equal opportunities for all. When Social Justice Activists say "social justice" they mean an emphasis on group identity over the rights of the individual, a rejection of social liberalism, and the assumption that unequal outcomes are always evidence of structural inequalities.

    Andrew Doyle, The New Puritans.



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    #18465
    Hungry Burger
    Registered Users Posts: 534 ✭✭✭Hungry Burger


    It seems to me the only people who ‘champion’ this uncapped influx of migrants are people who benefit from immigration, I.e the actual immigrants themselves and the owners of business who use migration as a way to keep the wages of people down.



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    #18466
    Nosler
    Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭Nosler


    So to sum up the last 617 pages:

    Negatives of multiculturalism.

    Pressure on housing. Pressure on healthcare. Pressure on schools. Downward pressure on wages. Higher rent and house prices. Having to build on greenbelt. More road congestion. More crime. Less social cohesion. Irish people become poorer. Importation of "old fashioned" ideas towards women and homosexuals etc.

    Positives of multiculturalism.

    Tasty food.



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    #18467
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,504 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119945428#Comment_119945428

    Oh well there is also the true believers of multiculturalism who don’t gain a penny but who sincerely believe that “ melting pot “ song from the sixties



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    #18468
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Wow, this scheme has been a very impressive success

    I personally know 9 people who are now on the path to Irish citizenship as a result of this with several more still being processed

    Wonderful stuff

    https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2022/12/01/almost-5000-undocumented-given-permission-to-remain-under-one-in-generation-scheme/




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    #18469
    xxxxxxl
    Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947225#Comment_119947225

    Seeing the NGO sticky fingers all over it. Nice signs they print them at home. What's the point of a visa system if you can just bypass it. Basically a green light to dodgy employers taking advantage. And all safe countries. By international standards.



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    #18470
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947242#Comment_119947242

    And all safe countries. By international standards.

    What crazy ass standards would those be lol



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    #18471
    xxxxxxl
    Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947251#Comment_119947251

    Figures previously released by the department to The Irish Times indicated that the highest number of applications under the undocumented element came from Brazilians, Pakistanis, Chinese nationals with more than 1,000 received from each group followed by Filipinos, Nigerians and, with roughly 250 each, Indians and Bangladeshis.

    There are no travel bans as far as I know just advice for foreigners not natives. Mostly covid. Elections and that. Are we suggesting taking in numbers from these countries ? You know Asylum seekers ?



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    #18472
    Nosler
    Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭Nosler


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947225#Comment_119947225

    A success for who?

    The average Itish person doesnt gain from this?

    What gets me with this amnesty is that there is no requirement to speak English for "undocumented migrants"? The Irish government is handing out irish passports to people that have no hope of integrating.



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    #18473
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947312#Comment_119947312

    The problem is you're trying to apply logic and common sense to a politic that runs almost entirely on emotion and a near religious belief in the Truth of its position. You're also looking at a charity industry whose reason for existence and funding is the same "religion" with enough happy clappy foot soldiers running on emotions that support them.

    And the Times spelled "Illegal" incorrectly.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #18474
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947254#Comment_119947254

    When you look at the relevant dept. stats it's pretty clear that the majority of asylum claims from the nations mentioned are deemed bogus. So now what you do is get in/overstay your visa, wait a few years and voila you'll likely get an amnesty. Hell, just get in, rip up your ID on the plane on the way and even if you get served with a deportation notice you can brass neck it out as in the vast majority of cases deportation is up to the deportee. Yep.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #18475
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947312#Comment_119947312

    Migration is a net benefit to the country. Its been studied many times. The detail on which has been posted here several times to this thread



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    #18476
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947254#Comment_119947254

    🤦‍♂️ Figured as much



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    #18477
    batman_oh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,426 ✭✭✭batman_oh


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119948242#Comment_119948242

    The migration of undocumented unskilled people from safe areas is a proven net benefit? And if we just allow all of them to stay and 20000 becomes 200000, is that still a net benefit?

    Nobody claims controlled immigration of people that work and fill needs is a bad thing. Taking every chancer from everywhere isn't remotely the same thing.



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    #18478
    Marcos
    Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭Marcos


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947699#Comment_119947699

    That word "charity" is dong a lot of heavy lifting there. They're more akin to grifters, out for themselves and their own little hobby horses than any normal definition of charity. The entire NGO sector is a money sink in dire need of reform. €7 billion a year, didn't Enda Kenny promise a bonfire of the NGOs?

    When most of us say "social justice" we mean equality under the law opposition to prejudice, discrimination and equal opportunities for all. When Social Justice Activists say "social justice" they mean an emphasis on group identity over the rights of the individual, a rejection of social liberalism, and the assumption that unequal outcomes are always evidence of structural inequalities.

    Andrew Doyle, The New Puritans.



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    #18479
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119948292#Comment_119948292

    Well yeah, Ireland's birth rate is dropping so we need a continuous influx just to keep the economy ticking over.

    Even with our population growth, and the amnesty, and the influx of Ukrainians, we are at 4.4% unemployment.

    In macro economic terms, once you are at 5% its considered full employment but if you drop below that by much then it starts to have a seriously detrimental effect on the economy due to a shortage of workers.



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    #18480
    live4tkd
    Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭live4tkd


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947699#Comment_119947699

    And seems to have made Heather Humphreys Minister for Justice too!



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    #18481
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119948471#Comment_119948471

    She is

    She's covering the maternity leave of Helen McEntee



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