Kenya Ban imminent

skyblue46 · 30-11-2022 7:12pm

Unsurprisingly WA have decided not to ban the golden goose or any athlete from his country. We couldn't have the brand image tarnished any further 🤣

average_runner · 30-11-2022 7:29pm

Knew there be no ban. Madness to ban kipchoge as will kill marathon interest.

Womens marathon at a massive high now also.

rovers_runner · 30-11-2022 7:44pm

A joke, sure the real goat fell out his window while sowing his oats but the world kept turning. Kipchoge is one man, he doesn't define the sport, although some are too heavily invested in him to allow the house of cards to fall.

At least we know now that every single one of them are doping and it will go the way of cycling until they completely gut the sport.

average_runner · 30-11-2022 9:40pm

Kipchoge defines the marathon thr same way bolt did the sprints.

Unless you are a die hard follower, most wouldn't have a clue who won London, Chicago, Boston and New York.

Sponsorship income for the marathons would fall also

Cartman78 · 30-11-2022 9:44pm

What are they allegedly accused of supposedly taking?

Or is it dodging tests and all that malarkey?

rom · 30-11-2022 11:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119941713#Comment_119941713

Bolt is a good example alright https://www.track-stats.com/drug-100m-the-fastest-men-and-their-bans/

average_runner · 01-12-2022 9:20am

Innocent till proven guilty.

But what I meant was Bolt was built as the hero to the sprints as Kipchoge is to the marathon.

No one is questioning Duplantis in the pole vault.

01-12-2022 9:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119925344#Comment_119925344

What rugby players are doping?

demfad · 01-12-2022 11:56am

The decision was not to ban the country (Kenya) as a whole. The individual bans being handed out will be handed out as that would come under WADA rules. That was purported to be the trigger for the potential national sanction and that will happen regardless of World Athletics backing down. When the bans land (IMO) particular interest may emerge on the camp of Patrick Sang. That's the camp containing Kipchoge. I don't see this as solving the problem at all. The authorities are going to focus on coaches and entourages. What does that even mean in practice? If I come from poverty but can make a life changing fortune as an athlete who cares if i get subsequently banned? These events may put focus on one particular camp or two but it won't address the widespread use amongst Kenyan athletes.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/africa/63812454

average_runner · 01-12-2022 1:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943604#Comment_119943604

Is Kipchoige getting a personal ban?

demfad · 01-12-2022 4:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943929#Comment_119943929

His social media indicates that he is a man preparing to race. That would indicate no. Will people in his training group get a ban? The indications are yes, which may in itself undermine confidence in World Athletics etc. (eg these relative also rans are performance enhancing yet their training partner who is the top global performer is clean?)

Don't know for certain either way. We will have to wait for the bans to land.

Bluesquare · 01-12-2022 5:48pm

This may sound like terribly stupid question but surely there are big players behind keynan doping . Surely these camps don’t have the funds to research good performance enhancers etc - will the root be exposed? I feel sorry for the Kenyans . Are dopers always willing participants. ? They were top of the game anyway - why dope ? And most of all is this why my alphas didn’t make me go fast I was actually missing the right buzz?

wgtomblin · 01-12-2022 9:14pm

Yes, there must be doctors and 'bad agents' who are meeting the demand. The athletes who are caught usually deny culpability, often with some outrageous excuses. There is a culture of omerta. Maybe a possible solution is a reduced ban in exchange for admission and information?

I would say they are willing participants, but not always for the glory but rather a path to riches or at least out of poverty. There is a pressure, especially as a running career is short and Kenya has waves of top class athletes going sub 2.10 for marathon etc.. The pandemic also took away almost two years of earning potential for most of them. They may be 'top of the game' but the difference between say, 11th and 5th place in a major marathon could be zero and $20k. Life changing money.

Naos · 01-12-2022 11:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943040#Comment_119943040

At a guess? The vast, vast majority.

Murph_D · 02-12-2022 12:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119945030#Comment_119945030

"The indications are yes" - what indications, exactly?

Murph_D · 02-12-2022 12:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119946830#Comment_119946830

You might be accidentally right, but guesswork is for mugs. Evidence wins every time.

average_runner · 02-12-2022 9:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947046#Comment_119947046

How about attend one of the u16 training camps and you see the size of the lads. This size isn't just reached via hard work

demfad · 02-12-2022 10:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947037#Comment_119947037

Indications from people on the ground in Iten. (Read earlier in the thread pls)

Note: 3 of Kipchoge's pacers have already been banned.

demfad · 02-12-2022 10:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947046#Comment_119947046

Indications are often used when evidence is difficult to obtain.

If you look like a duck, act like a duck and speak like I duck we are going to assume you are a duck. We won't be requiring duck DNA.

Works for things like money laundering and ABP. Not for mugs.

"The fundamental principle of the Athlete Biological Passport (ABP) is to monitor selected biological variables over time that indirectly reveal the effects of doping, rather than attempting to detect the doping substance or method itself."

demfad · 02-12-2022 10:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119945347#Comment_119945347

Apart from one or two camps there are no big players, dodgy entourages etc behind the widespread doping. It is individual Kenyan athletes trying to compete in an ecology where doping is now widespread. It is self fulfilling.

Put yourself in a Kenyan athlete's position. You are dirt poor, and I don't mean poor like we understand it, I mean you are a farm worker getting just enough to keep hunger at bay. Your spouse is probably working all day too. You are a very talented athlete with a chance to completely transform your life. But you can't compete unless you take drugs like everyone else. Would you really give a toss about it given that many many (relatively) rich westerners have taken drugs and are taking it? A life changing career? I certainly wouldn't think twice. That's why throwing money (much of it won't make it to the ground anyway) will make no difference. It will continue as before.

They know to take it in the off season but still so many are being caught. That's because they take it themselves, not being advised by western coaches etc. The top performers that are NOT being caught: they are the ones where you need to look on entourages etc.

Thats why you might have one or two camps with big stars suspiciously clean. And then widespread individuals in a more randomized pattern.

average_runner · 02-12-2022 11:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947500#Comment_119947500

Most of the pacemakers for the 1:59 Challenge — including Kipserem — were not part of Kipchoge’s training group. If a pacemaker for the Monaco 1500 tested positive, would you think that meant anything about the race winner being clean or dirty? If Matthew Centrowitz or Stewart McSweyn tested positive, would that make you to think Kipchoge was also doping? Well, they were both pacers for the 1:59 Challenge.

demfad · 02-12-2022 3:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947803#Comment_119947803

I didn't mention the 1:59 challenge. I am talking about his real pacers, the day in day out, month in month out Kenyan based pacers for Kipchoge's long runs and long sessions. At least 3 done for doping. I am not trying to pull wool over anyone's eyes here or misdirect.

My advice is to see what comes of the upcoming bans. That information should provide the basis for a better assessment.

For me, even ignoring all the indications, a guy in his mid 40s running sub 2hrs for the marathon in a sport riddled with training enhancing doping...?

What are the chances?

Naos · 02-12-2022 3:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947046#Comment_119947046

It's a fair arguement you're making and I can understand why you would stand by it.

It's a difficult thing to prove as (a) PEDs are always ahead of the testing capabilities and (b) what is the incentive for a sports organisation to want to have to remove big names etc from competition.

If you've been around any local gyms recently, PED usage is pretty common. In sports, where there is a financial incentive to be in the best physical shape possible, it's even more so.

As an example take a look at this. Max Hauke, a Nordid cross-country skier, getting busted for EPOs (via blood transfusion) by the Police while participating for the Nordic World Ski Championships.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/max-hauke-video-austrian-skier-nordic-world-cup-ski-championships-police-raid-viral-a8802511.html

Now I'm not **** on skiing but it's not as popular as soccer or rugby. If someone is doping at a sport of that level, you can only imagine what pro's are up to.

average_runner · 02-12-2022 3:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119948830#Comment_119948830

Please show me evidence he is in his mid 40's? Actually evidence.

Ignore the 2 hr thing as it was a drafting even. But Bekele who was 38 was within a sec of Kipchoge world record. Haile Gebrselassie has said he would of smash 2:01 at 39 years of age with the new tech out now.

How often is Kipchoge tested? How come no one has ever claimed to of seen anything and the amount of coaches that have spent time in his camp?

How come no past athletes have come out about him?

Even Armstrong had people come out about him!!!

Naos · 02-12-2022 3:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119948993#Comment_119948993

Armstrong, one of if not the most tested athlete in world, has never failed a doping test.

Do you really think the number 1 marathoner in the world, by a long shot, is clean? Bolt clean? Ronaldo clean?

E.coli · 02-12-2022 4:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119949116#Comment_119949116

Lance did fail a test though, it was just covered up. Likewise many did speak out against him and had done for nearly 20 years before his confession.

You can have your own opinions on the matter but they are not like for like comparisons by any stretch of the imagination. In the age of the new shoe technology there is a plausibility around right athlete at the right time as an explanation. Whether you choose to believe that is entirely up to point of view but when weighing up all factors it needs to be done critically not just from a skeptical position.

Remember the Sub 2 project included a large team of sports scientists and doctors as well who have no affiliation to Kipchoge who had access to his bloodworks, his camp and constant monitoring. You would assume that with all that research that some one would have access to bring down if they chose even just to make a name for themselves.