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Ireland Examining Neutrality After Ukraine War

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭85603




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    We're getting to the nub of the issue here, it's not actually Ireland's defence arrangements or neutrality that's the issue, it's oven baked anti-Americanism of the type you here out of far left pamphleteers in front of the GPO.

    That's all fine, but admit it for what it is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭Ramasun


    I saw a documentary about the contribution of the Irish weather station at Blacksod Co. Mayo to the planning of the D-Day landings.


    Ireland has never been Neutral.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭85603


    I admit to euro-centrism.

    Love America, especially when its not in our affairs. And Im sure the feeling is mutual from most Americans towards Europe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    The USA is present in the security affairs of Europe with the assent and democratic will of NATO members. You may notice that the treaty has picked up dozens of members. Nobody is making Eastern States join the Treaty - they want in, and nobody has signalled they wish to leave. Quite the opposite.

    That should tell you a lot of what you need to know.

    The "America get out of Europe" noises are fringe elements in the politics of Europe.

    Europe would have been at war many times over since WW2 had the current security dispensation not been arrived at.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭85603


    Dont care. Less America in Europes politics is my preference. Dont believe in delegating any more influence to them. And its not just because the Donald proved that US is an unreliable, unpredictable partner.

    (As they have every right to be - i completely understand why).

    Russia was the one good reason for more America in Europe. That chapter seems to be closing. Ukraine has left them bruised and knackered.

    Will they step up to a population 10 times bigger, far better armed and with the globes 2nd economy by gdp.

    Nah.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    You don't care that Europe would have been at war many times over?

    And you pick an era where Russia has launched a brutal war and is waving around its nukes as a good time for the US to leave Europe because...(insert Mick Wallace-ism here)?

    Keep on tripping the light fantastic. This year has tied the US into Europe's security architecture for another 100 years, and it's with the overwhelming will of Europe West of the Dnieper.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭85603


    No, I dont particularly care about past possibilities. America could still have a monarchy were it not for the French. So what. The present and future are a little more important.

    Irelands not tied in to Nato as a member. And we're not going to be. There are approximately no good reasons for joining, and plenty of reasons against.

    - Embroils us with nato vs jihadi terrorism.

    - Places us in an alliance with our friendly neighbors while they continue to occupy our 6 counties. Having treated Irish people there as dirt for decades.

    - Gives whatever lunatic the American people elect the power to make our personnel their cannon fodder.

    - Gives whatever lunatic the American lobby groups decide to finance the power to as above, ... so Halliburton shareholders can choose what to do with our disposable, micro-partner sock puppet asses.

    - Aligns us against lots of mad random countries who we normally have nothing to do with. Belarus and Iran and N.Korea are now our sworn enemies for no real reason. China too. And pretty much the whole Muslim world. (Irish passport wont save you any more, nato country)

    - Russia is now as weak as its ever been in its history, while European forces (over 1.4 million active personnel) have never been stronger. Both more active personnel and more reserves, far far larger budget, waaay larger available manpower. Plus a new strategic partner called Ukraine. All of this in the way long before they can get anywhere near to us.

    Also I dont care about the left, or the right, or the greens, or Mick Wallace, so just stop with the tired simplistic go-to political tropes. They dont work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    The UK don't "occupy our 6 counties". Northern Ireland is a constituent part of the United Kingdom until they decide they aren't. That's what our constitutiontal order says, and that's reality.

    You're giving your crackpottery game away every post.

    I could go through your post line for line and ravage it, but I'm not in the habit of engaging too much with ding-a-ling political outlooks.



  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,141 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    85603 threadbanned



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,329 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    We all know Varadkar and most of his FG henchmen would ditch neutrality in a heartbeat

    he dances around the question in true Leo smirking fashion in this interview… but certainly leaving the door open / advocating for no neutrality.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    It's coming they must have gotten wind via poling. Detest Varadkar as he's populist But on serious issues he does not put his head up unless he thinks there is a good chance. Like the flip flop on Gay marriage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,329 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    True, but, there were media polls taken by various media sources in the last year, all of which overwhelmingly suggest that the citizens of Ireland favour retaining our neutrality.

    but, as we know, Leo likes to stir…



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    Oh ofc true. But I have noticed older Irish people have some misty eyed notion that Ireland is Neutral. When you point out the facts they still stick to the old guns. Neutrality here is a Government stand point not based in law. OFC they argue opposite.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    "all of which overwhelmingly suggest that the citizens of Ireland favour retaining our neutrality."

    No they didn't.

    That's 52% v 48% in favour btw.

    That was the latest one conducted to my knowledge, and there were others displaying similar sentiment. Make your point, but don't make things up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,329 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    ^ They polled 1845 people, a private organisation… where.. “Respondents recruited via Qualtrics from professionally managed market research panels”

    the Irish times / IPSOS poll..

    “Again, 66 per cent of respondents said they supported the current model of neutrality, while 24 per cent said they would like to see it change. Eleven per cent said they didn’t know.”

    I’d trust a viable media source with unlimited poll participation as in numbers and demographics over that lot…



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,026 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    There'll be no change in policy until there's a Citizen's Assembly and some agreement on a policy wording.

    I do think we should remain neutral, or really militarily non-aligned, but

    a) i hope the outcome of the CA isn't something as daft as putting biodiversity in the Constitution.

    b) true neutrality means being able to assert it and does not involve contracting out air defence to a NATO member and fooling ourselves that we are. It means a big investment in territorial defence, including the million square kilometres of EEZ.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    IPSOS are a "private organisation" just as the other polling company, and IPSOS are not the Irish Times.

    I don't know where you're pulling "unlimited poll partipaction from". It kind of looks like you don't know how polling works.

    I'll repeat. Make your point, but don't make things up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Rambo 3, from 1988, ends with a dedication to “the brave fighting men of the Taliban”. Did Hollywood make them up??



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    No there was no dedication to the Taliban,they didn't exist at the time ,



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2




  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Our neutrality is a sham ,and always has been,it's an excuse not to invest in a full defense program,if anything we should be looking into producing and exporting military vehicles and other equipment,it would be worth billions to the economy



  • Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭TipsyMcStagge


    I assume all the loud pro NATO advocates here will be the first ones on the frontline in NATO's next war of aggression? Or is the dying only to be done by the working class kids?



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Have you seen what's on Russian forces are inside ukraine illegally at present at all , pedophiles , murders , rapists



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    More likely the professional army we have that sign-up of their own volition. Which if you knew much about it, you'd know it draws its members from all stratas of Irish society.

    We don't have conscription nor is it in the realms of reality that it would ever be introduced.

    What's a "NATO war of aggression" outside a Trot pamphlet handed to disinterested pedestrians on O'Connell Street?



  • Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭TipsyMcStagge


    The war on Yugoslavia was pretty aggressive. The carpet bombing of Libya which turned it into the hideous wasteland it is today was pretty aggressive. The bombing and 20 year war in Afghanistan which achieved absolutely nothing was pretty aggressive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Milosevic was a war criminal of the purest sort, and him and the disease of militaristic and genocidal Serbian ethnonationalism got wiped from the Balkans - and the scumbags got a one-way ticket to justice in The Hague.

    On this front, bravo NATO. They did the continent some service.

    NATO would do it all over again tomorrow, and we should be grateful that they would.

    Trots and Putin sympathisers on the left and right should cry into their semi-literate pamphlets about it.

    The NATO mission in Afghanistan was a success and necessary. It was a security black hole. Truth be told, they should still be there and never left in the mid-2010s. (And NATO was there with the full approval of the UN btw, including Ireland which was a security council member at the time).



  • Registered Users Posts: 437 ✭✭TipsyMcStagge


    I'd assume Russia has all sorts of nasty fcukers in their army as do the NATO forces but I'm not claiming Ireland should go into alliance with Russia or anything.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,329 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Nothing wrong with being a private organisation.. you / we deal with them every day...

    Unless there is reason to question their credentials and credibility.. ? Is there ?



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