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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,284 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    In a million years, we're never going to leave a fit Sexton out of the Six Nations. No point debating it and certainly no point getting worked up about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭TRC10


    In a million years, we're never going to leave a fit Sexton out of the Six Nations

    And nor should we



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Don't think Sexton will still be first choice when he's 1,000,037 years old.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,586 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Osbourne could be one to look at as a possible replacement for Lowe in the future. He has all those attributes, tho it remains to be seen if he can develop Lowe's scoring proficiency.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,666 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I’d agree with almost the entire crux of this TRC, but on this:

    Answer me this. After all those starts for Munster and Ireland, is Carbery any better now than he was in mid 2021?

    From 10 anyways, I feel he’s been taking it flatter and happier to take contact this season than all of last. Small signs but a little encouraging.

    (Now, whether that’s down to starts is something else entirely alright, mind).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,284 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Once again, it's irrelevant if Carbery is better now than he was, the only thing that matters is whether or not anyone else is better than him. As of now, they aren't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Grand. Let him back up Sexton from the bench. I didn't argue against that.

    But the suggestion that we should just throw away a potential grand slam, just to get him some more games, when he's been getting plenty of games for club and country and not improving, is utterly insane.

    The best thing for Ireland's development going into the world cup, without question, is to have as strong a 6N as possible and win a GS.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭TRC10


    If he's improved, it's marginal. I don't think he's closed the gap between himself and Sexton much (if at all).

    He certainly hasn't improved enough to justify throwing away a 6N in the blind hope that he improves a bit more. It's an utterly nonsensical suggestion.

    The amount of faith Munster have shown in him frankly amazes me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,630 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    No he's still bang average. Carberry wouldn't start for any tier 1 side however, Sexton is 37! He's also brilliant and is easily the best 10 we have. But Carberry could end up starting for us in the world cup. If Sexton is injured or his form falls apart then zoolander is up. I reckon it's an opportunity to see how we perform with a bang average 10!



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,876 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    We've already seen how we perform with a "bang average" 10

    We do not need to reduce our chances of winning a 6 nations title to do experimentation that we have already done before.

    At this stage we have only got the six nations (where we will not be experimenting) and the rwc warm ups (where we will be consolidating) before RWC 23.

    The time for experimenting is over.

    Carbery is sextons back up.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,630 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Of course, Carberry is over rated. Always has been. If anything, the gap from Sexton to Carberry is probably bigger. I hope that Crowley can make the leap.

    If Sexton goes down....



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't think Carbery is over rated, he's rated against what he showed earlier in his career but injury and dire coaching has diminished him as a player.

    The move to Munster hasn't worked out for him at all and the IRFU got that one wrong.

    Not blaming Munster here either, loads of fault in the appointment of JVG from the blazers through to Nucifora.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,012 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    The idea that we would intentionally hamstring ourselves by playing an average player in the most important position on the pitch, during the most important competition in Irish rugby, is absolute fantasy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,509 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Didn't the IRFU want him to come up North and Munster was his insistence?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Is there any solid word about who we will be playing in the rwc warm ups and how many warm ups we will have?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Just two confirmed as far as I'm aware: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Rugby_World_Cup_warm-up_matches

    Ever since David Wallace I tend to watch those games through my fingers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,861 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    Not forgetting BOD sinus fracture & Geordan Murphy before that.

    The only thing that seems to happen in the RWC warm-up matches is players play themselves off the squad or they get injured.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    I wonder if we will want more.


    I would think we might want fixtures on the 12th and 26th of August.


    We might not. The schedule is almost set up for us to warm up through the tournament (SA and Scotland are our 3rd and 4th fixtures).

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 49 Sleepy Joseph


    6 nations is small beer compared to the World Cup. It’s this attitude that has fouled our previous world cups



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭All_in_Flynn


    I'm not a fan of them. Not sure what you get from them really. We go into the 6 nations 'cold'. Can do so for the world cup too. Play a few games behind close doors against A team or something.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,666 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Why does it have to be either or. Why can’t we succeed in both?



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,876 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    what would you do to increase the chances of us winning the RWC 23?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,174 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    I but 6 Nations is 4 months into season. Players have played 8-10 games minimum beforehand. Not case with a September world cup. Need more than training games to go into a world cup



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭TRC10


    What attitude would that be? The attitude that we shouldn't just throw away a 6N for literally no reason?

    You're right, we should have played the 2nd string in the 2019 6N and got the wooden spoon. That would have made us win the World Cup.



  • Registered Users Posts: 49 Sleepy Joseph


    Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Welcome to my ignore list



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭TRC10




  • Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Agreed. Let’s not forget that the only NH side to win a RWC did so off the back of a a GS in the 6Ns.

    It is also still relevant that the 6Ns accounts for such a huge part of rugby revenues in Ireland. The reality is we need to do well in it to fund the game here and that reality will not be lost on the IRFU.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Some people would love to be England fans. They're clearly doing it right by throwing away game, after game, after game, all in a masterplan to suddenly flick a switch and become amazing in October next year and win the World Cup. That's clearly how it works. Right?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Plus we've won 3 in our history. If we have an opportunity to win another we should 100% be aiming to do so.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,876 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    The England women showed that even with perfect preparation and going into a rwc with a world record long running winning performance is useless to things that can happen on any given day such as an early red card.


    But hey, maybe they should have thrown the previous six nations cos of sh!ts n giggles .

    Post edited by sydthebeat on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,586 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Winning teams win. No consistently excellent side throws games. England build their 2003 win on the back of a dominant Grand Slam. NZ have a goal of being the best at all times.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,174 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    That England team in 03 also had missed out on the previous few titles or getting the slam so it shows even more how important it is to keep the foot down and how momentum from a slam can roll into the world cup...



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We don't go into the Six Nations 'cold' - it's mid season and the players have been competing in the URC and in Europe for months on top of the November Internationals.

    The World Cup is at the start of the season and none of the squad will have had pre season provincial games nor URC fixtures. You absolutely need to gain match fitness before going into a tournament - the warm up games are essential even if they are at times costly.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,251 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    100% and beating France in this years competition is hugely important in the context of momentum going into the World Cup.

    Has to be full bore through the 6N's.

    By all means give the bench longer runs if games are in the bag a bit earlier , but the momentum gained by winning a GS is far more beneficial to the squad than a few guys getting a bit more game time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,630 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    So is Carberry the future!!! Lol. If we win the 6nations, my blood pressure will be through the roof.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭All_in_Flynn


    I absolutely accept that games are necessary in preseason to get the fitness levels up. However, the warmup games always just look to me like two teams who are trying to not get hurt. I'm not sure what you get from it that you wouldn't get from a hit out behind closed doors where things can be controlled more.

    It's not a hill I'm willing to die on though, I could very well be wrong and they are massively important. I just detest those warm ups.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,174 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    But they have to be played. Just playing games behind closed doors isnt enough. You wont test yourself enough and it allows far better prep taking on another side in similar/same place as you.

    It isnt simply about getting fitness up either. its about going outside the camp as well.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah I'd generally agree with you but I'm also mindful that there is a lot to factor in on a match day, particularly a World Cup match day. Thankfully Irish fans tend to travel well and tend to be loud at World Cups. Part of the preparation is getting used to being in an absolute cauldron of atmosphere which would be one of the reasons why these games tend to be fixtures (tickets and viewership being the more likely factor overall). Simulating as much of the world cup experience as part of the warm up makes good sense - and if the games go well (both matches so far are at home) it can stimulate the sense of momentum a team brings into a tournament.

    Ireland and Farrell seem to be quite focused on the World cup despite the one game at a time attitude. Sure - they aren't prioritising it over absolutely everything else like Eddie Jones is implying (and I have a hard time believing that's why England aren't performing) but the Maori fixtures, Emerging Ireland and the NZ A game all suggest that there is very much a focus on building depth and looking at selections the last 10 months it seems to me that Farrell wants to be 3 positions deep throughout the pack come the World Cup.

    I would imagine that the warm up games will copper fasten any last minute selection calls but also get around 22 forwards conditioned to go hard at it for over a month of rugby.

    We've an awful draw but I think we're in a good place and I'm hopeful the warm ups provide good value for the squad and don't create serious headaches like they've done in the past.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Wales away has just become our toughest 6N fixture. The millennium is going to be an absolute cauldron on that opening day, like you've never seen it before.

    If we can get out of there with a win, I think we'll do the slam.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,383 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Nah, it hasn't. Maybe slightly tougher than it was but Wales are poor starters in the 6N at the best of times and they are far off that.

    France remains the pivotal and hardest match by a significant distance.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭TRC10


    I'd actually be quite confident of us beating France at home.

    But our record in Cardiff is terrible even when Wales are rubbish. Add to that, the new coach bounce they'll get from the father of Welsh rugby returning, the fact that they'll be looking for a reaction after a poor year and we're the perfect team to do it against because they f*cking hate us. The atmosphere in Cardiff will be absolutely ferocious. I'm now really nervous about that game and I wouldn't be too confident about us winning there.

    I really think we've drawn the short straw in being their first game at home with Gatland back.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Gatland returning may have a token impact on our margin of victory but we're still going to beat Wales.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,383 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Fair enough.

    I remain very confident. We are a far better team, they are a shambles, they tend to start slowly in the 6N and Gatland simply doesn't have the players to play the game he wants. If we don't beat them then we are not the team I think we are and have far bigger problems.

    Also our record in Cardiff is not terrible even when Wales are rubbish. We have lost the last 4 (after a period of almost always winning there) - in two of those seasons Wales won the 6N and in one of them they were joint top of the table and lost out on points difference. 2017 is the only year you could make the argument that we really should have beaten them. Its an overblown fear.



  • Administrators Posts: 54,125 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    IMO losing to Wales this year would have an even worse effect on us than England in 2019. It would be really bad because they are rubbish and Gatland cannot possibly fix their problems that quickly.

    Forget about atmosphere or Gatland or whatever, if we view ourselves as a serious team then we will put Wales away in the 6N, no matter who is coaching them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭TRC10


    I agree we should. I'm just not that confident that we will.

    I don't think the chasm in quality between our players and theirs is as big as we like to make out. Our performances against Fiji and Australia also concern me greatly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,419 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Definitely not our toughest fixture, maybe a coach bounce makes it tougher than when Pivac was head coach but Gatland now has to go get assistants that suit his play and find them mid season. Not an easy ask, especially when the coaches know they may not be part of a winning ticket.

    If we can't beat Wales we don't deserve the Grand Slam



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭All_in_Flynn


    I can't fathom how anyone can look at our Autumn games and have any other view that we showed absolutely nothing. The players were nowhere near their physical peak, and I don't think we ran even one set piece play from memory. Can't even remember a wrap around to get to the edge bar the SA game.

    The New Zealand games are the barometer for me and I'd expect we will be a lot closer to that level come 6 nations than what we were a couple of weeks ago. I certainly wouldn't be looking at Oz and Fiji games as a measure of how we will perform against Wales. I expect us to beat them and I think the gap between our players and theirs is fairly stark at present. Would any of their 15 get into ours?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,383 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Well, also our performance against Australia with our third choice 10 who was dropped into the starting role with about 10 mins notice was enough to win the game. So room for improvement, but hardly exceptionally worrying.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,666 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Would any of their 15 get into ours?

    I hope this isn’t ominous, but in a weird parallel, I remember Drico asking the same thing prior to that game against England in our opener in the 2019 6 Nations, and we know how that went…

    Surely that England team were significantly better than this Welsh team tho.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They have some talented players but the standard of coaching in Wales is poor and Pivac seems to have had issues with the overall fitness of the available squad. Whether that's more excuses or a genuine issue is up for debate.

    What they will have in February is a more organised and determined defence and that can count for a lot in terms of a one off fixture. What they will face in February however is a team much closer to the All Blacks than Argentina or Georgia.

    They absolutely won't roll over and a loss at home in the opening round more than likely scuppers their six nations so they'll leave nothing in the dressing room (stop it Reggie). In years gone by I would be concerned about extended periods in their 22 not really getting anywhere because they'd defend like their lives depended on it but I think we've far more tools to break them down these days and there defence won't be enough.



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