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NI Dec 22 Assembly Election

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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Do you understand compromise. Irish gov and eu want ‘A’, unionist community want ‘Z’, so ‘M’ or ‘N’ would seem fair to me.

    if you live in a world of A or Z then conflict is your destiny



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    So the DUP are going to capitulate on their demands in your view?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,746 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Do you understand compromise. Irish gov and eu want ‘A’,

    The EU (which includes ireland so not sure you you feel the need to separate them) just want the agreement put into international law carried out. This would be the agreement put forwards by the government in London: the same agreement said by the DUP to be a sensible and stable way forwards and the same one used as a platform to elect the current British government into power by a massive majority.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    And it more or less will be that agreement with a few flexibilities built in used. Good to know the DUP will take down the tents and get on with it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    That’s all fine and commendable but the unionist community in NI have every right to resist it politically. We have demonstrated to the dup that they are finished if they do not represent us by opposing it. We have the eu and Uk back in negotiations to find a solution. We are doing all we can to prevent violence. Surely you are not saying that because politicians agreed something that the people do not have the right to seek changes?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I can’t think of any scenario where one side get everything they ask. Absolutely I would want them to compromise, but I want them to play hard ball and not give any hint that they are willing to move until the appropriate moment



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    It absolutely won’t be. But I see you shift happening. You told us the agreement east changing, now you say “And it MORE OR LESS will be that agreement”



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,666 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Those numbers are very disappointing from an Ireland unity standpoint, it looks like the religious background to demographic change means little (out breeding the protestants happened but the younger generation aren't buying into it) and NI has a stronger sense of its own identity. The republic numbers are also lower than I expected. That 66 number will need to make concessions that reduce it down towards 55 if there is to be any gains in the North, those concessions will be hard to take for some people.

    it's also nowhere near good enough numbers for a border poll to be on the horizon.

    I'd like to see a United Ireland, hopefully within my lifetime.

    Is there any age breakdown to the numbers?



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The Protocol with modifications based on the inbuilt flexibilities will still be there. It will not be re-negotiated, it will still be a part of the WA between the UK and the EU.

    A Protocol the party you will vote for said 'must go in it's entirety'



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I actually don’t care what the dup wanted or whether they need to compromise, indeed I hope they do compromise, but obviously within the context of compromise from others.

    if Carlsberg done polls! They just keep coming.

    here’s another reassuring one. A remarkable majority in GB want the ECJ removed from any oversight in NI. Thank you my friends



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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You don't care, and you hope they do compromise but you are voting for a party hell bent on not compromising?

    You are not making any sense.

    P.S. It doesn't matter what the majority in GB want, what matters is what you are being offered and it isn't that. And we know the mood music/route of travel is to an agreement. In fact Sunak is promising it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Your first sentence explained….

    I don’t care how difficult dup find it to compromise as long as they do. Yes I hope they will. And yes I am glad they are giving the impression the are hell bent on not compromising - that’s a fair position at this point.

    so nail your colours to the mast francie. If there is compromise on Ecj authority in ni, will you admit unionists achieved something you thought they didn’t have a chance of achieving - and that is at the extreme end of the comprises we want from the negotiations



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    If the Protocol goes (the DUP demand) then you have achieved something but become completely hoist by your own petard on the insistence on ‘consent’.

    A hard Brexit like the rest of the UK has NO consent here.

    What then?


    p.s I nailed my colours from day one - the Protocol is going nowhere unless the UK goes rogue and breaks the Agreement.

    Current status: Protocol still there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    You said it would not be negotiated and changes would not be outside the flexibilities built into it. Is that still your position?



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I said the Protocol would remain and small changes within the framework could and would be made.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Of course protocols are required. There always were protocols eg around moving animals etc.

    you condemn my communities agitation and resistance around the current protocol. Yet every non-unionist party in NI were calling for the ‘rigorous implementation’ of the protocol. The Irish gov and the shinners told us to suck it up as there would be no negotiating and no deviation.

    the one thing guaranteed to focus and unite unionism is a United pan-nationalist push against us.

    there was a point about a year ago I did wonder would we ever get movement, but I have been pleasantly surprised that we now have all parties in a place where they have done an about turn on ‘rigorous implementation’ and negotiations happening, etc - even Francie has just said there will be ‘small CHANGES’ 😮

    we are in a much better place today than a year ago. Polls showing Ui is further away than ever, unionism uniting politically whilst also gaining a realisation of the importance of ensuring OWC is owned and the vision caught by everyone, bar republicans.

    a lot of work ahead but I am confident in 5 years OWC will be even more secure, all communities, bar republicans, will be even more Northern Irish.

    I don’t care who first minister will be - indeed a nationalist FM will help moderate nationalists feel even more bought in.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Of course protocols are required. There always were protocols eg around moving animals etc.

    you condemn my communities agitation and resistance around the current protocol. Yet every non-unionist party in NI were calling for the ‘rigorous implementation’ of the protocol. The Irish gov and the shinners told us to suck it up as there would be no negotiating and no deviation.

    the one thing guaranteed to focus and unite unionism is a United pan-nationalist push against us.

    Utter nonsense and more paranoid 'victimhood'. A child could fact check it>


    Taoiseach hails EU's 'flexibility' over Northern Ireland Protocol (irishexaminer.com)

    gov.ie - Minister Coveney welcomes significant progress on Protocol issues (www.gov.ie)

    Ireland’s Varadkar: EU protocol rules on British goods ‘too strict’ – POLITICO

    Examples of flexibilities identified by the European Commission in an effort to ensure the full implementation of the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland | European Commission (europa.eu)



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    BBC done a wee piece last night on imagining the election, which should have happened today, had actually happened. I am not sure if it is only available in our country or whether you can get it in Ireland but here it is (from about 25 mins) https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001g7f7/the-view-15122022

    the bottom line is that they were saying exactly what I said on here at time election was proposed ie DUP and SF will increase. DUP may overtake SF. UUP and SDLP in further trouble. UUP position on being prepared to go back into stormont will hit them hard and big hitters like Doug Beattie and Mike nesbitt may lose their seats.

    the only surprise for me was the pundits agreeing that Alliance would have taken some pain and lost seats.

    the above was a consensus from pundits on both sides. The biggest winners would have been the DUP for their anti protocol stance and opt out of stormont. No wonder the SOS refused to let the election run.

    I see the SDLP video-posting (vote chasing) today standing in so-called solidarity with the only unionists left living in my town in which there is a big upsurge in sectarian attacks on the Protestant pensioners living there. They never done this in 50 years of on-ongoing attacks which would suggest they feel their only hope of votes in this area are from moderate unionists. It would fit them better they would go and make the statements outside the SF MPs office in the town named after some of those who carried out the sectarian murder in the town instead of standing outside Protestant homes. Asking the MP why he is silent would be a better approach - still wouldn’t be getting any votes mind you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The DUP's "anti-Protocol stance" scrupulously avoids calling on the UK government to do the things it would need to do to negotiate away the Protocol. I'm not one of those who thinks that the DUP's stance is not so much anti-Protocol as anti-the devolved institutions, with the Protocol providing a convenient fig-leaf for them to avoid working with a First Minister provided by SF. But, really, if that were the DUP's position, would their statements and actions be in the tiniest bit different from what, in fact, they are? Why won't the DUP call for effective action to address the Protocol? What is it that stops them?

    The truth, I think, is that, if the DUP were to call on the UK government to do what must be done to alleviate the Protocol, that would require the DUP to admit that its own previous positions on Brexit were disastrously mistaken. And the M-word is not one that the DUP can ever contemplate. Their massive insecurity is such that they would let not only the devolved institutions but the union itself perish in flames before that word would pass their lips.

    Those who oppose the Protocol are fools if they vote for the DUP. They should vote for parties willing to call for, and to back, the actions the UK government needs to take if the Protocol is to be alleviated. If they cannot do that, they need to ask themselves how heartfelt their opposition to the Protocol really is. Are they from the school of unionism that prefers to have a nice, comforting grievance to reassure them that they are righteous, and that would actually be quite insecure if their grievance comfort-blanket were ever to be removed?



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Ellen Clumsy Twit


    The DUP are a party that like to break things down, but not so good on building them up. Let us never forget that they were the only major party in NI that opposed the GFA, only taking advantage of it when they became the largest Unionist party - but they did not contribute to its birth.

    They are also a party that don't really look into the distance a lot to see where they are going, rather preferring to career headlong from crisis to crisis. They are the very opposite of quiet diplomatic negotiation. Hence their absolutely disastrous backing for Brexit - since they thought it would bring about the introduction of a hard border in Ireland - followed by their voting down of anything to do with the implementation of Brexit in N. Ireland, culminating in the current protocol that they so oppose. All done without considering a/ that it might in fact bring about a border in the Irish Sea b/ that it might bring North and South closer together at least economically c/ that it might weaken the union. No vision.

    And now they're making Stormont unworkable (lets not forget that they never wanted the GFA in the first place) using the protocol as a convenient tool - I suspect its because they don't want to sit in a Stormont with a Sinn Fein FM. This in itself is a anti-democratic stance, since the DUP sat for years while they were FM but not the second they lose it to SF. It also disturbingly echoes the Unionist stance in the 1960s relegating Catholics to second class in NI. They also don't seem to care to look into the distance to see the possible / probable longer term consequences of their actions : will Stormont ever sit again, will the DUP vote disappear in years to come because they crashed Stormont, will one side or the other or both return to violence. A political vacuum never ends well.

    And all this is being done against the wishes of the majority. A huge majority (71-29) in NI voted for the GFA that the DUP didn't want. A large majority (56-44) in NI voted against Brexit that the DUP wanted. A majority (54-46) in NI think the protocol that the DUP want to abolish is a good thing for NI. They are the very opposite of a democratic unionist party. To bring down a political institution in an effort to get rid of something that the majority want is fundamental political bullying.

    Finally let us examine the DUP proposals for replacing the protocol. It will not take long for there are none. Their policies page on the subject can be summarised by "Remove the protocol, no Irish Sea border". No mention whatsoever on how they envisage this will be done. It is now 7 years since they vigorously campaigned for Brexit, and at no stage have they put up any kind of high level proposal never mind detail on how to manage the conundrum of NI having the GFA versus the UK not in the EU. As I said - breaking things down, yes, but building them up ? Not so much. For this reason they are to be feared.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    If this is a reflection of what nationalists believe then it is disturbingly prejudiced. Catholic FM has zero to do with why the dup are not in stormont. I don’t trust them as far as I’d throw them and I know they would be in tomorrow only the know they couldn’t recover from the unionist backlash at the polling booths if they did. They are not choosing to stay out. The people are telling them to stay out.

    ….and you have a strange view of democracy, if parties can’t disagree, agitate politically and oppose majority positions - I think you are mixing democracy up with a one party state.

    I fear things are growing much more polarised here (as polls suggest). It is going to be difficult to keep a lid on things if there is not some semblance of equity and respect. We should have learnt something from our history

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Ellen Clumsy Twit


    The truth is that "The people" are happy with the protocol, but agitators on the far right of unionism keep telling them they are not.

    I assume that if there is a referendum on unity and the result is to stay in the union, we can ignore the result and plough on with unity anyhow. This is the example the DUP are setting, forget about majorities and democracy, break down and destroy political bodies until you get your way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Very patronising. You know what unionists think , better than themselves.

    I completely expect that when a United ireland is rejected in a poll, that SF will continue to agitate for it. Indeed I would completely defend their right to take a different view than the majority.

    yoi have a very strange position ie once a decision is taken then that is it for all time. Why bother having elections?

    the current protocol has as much chance of being embraced by unionists as permanent direct rule by republicans

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Ellen Clumsy Twit


    So I don't know what unionists think but you do. Gotcha.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,213 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    "I assume that if there is a referendum on unity and the result is to stay in the union, we can ignore the result and plough on with unity anyhow."

    Yup, that is exactly and precisely what will happen.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Well I am a unionist. So yes I know what at least one unionist thinks

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Ellen Clumsy Twit


    Yes, but not all of them. Do you think you can speak for a majority of unionists ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    PeasSea to suggest I am out of touch with my community and that republicans know better how they are ticking is arrogant and rediculous.

    when I was told two months ago that this opposition would all fade away, I posted the above couple of posts predicting actions that would happen pre Christmas - would you agree they have turned out pretty damned accurate in both timing and content?

    Also. My predictions for how the unionist community would vote in the recent election (that never happened) were backed up accurately by the subsequent polls.

    so you charge has no substance!



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Ellen Clumsy Twit


    So do you think you can speak for a majority of unionists ?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,623 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I think that on the protocol the unionist community is fairly united, and yes, I reflect that. I don’t speak for anyone but myself

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


This discussion has been closed.
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