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Why inheritance is the dirty secret of the middle classes – harder to talk about than sex

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Again avoiding the simple question.

    You haven't explained what this 75k bill is stopping you from doing or forcing you to do compared to if it did not exist.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,469 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    So no one is living in a house thats provided by the state? Let me guess, they pay for it with HAP thats also provided by the state?

    There are many people in Ireland who would be worse off than they are now if the did indeed win the lottery. A certain individual by the coincidental name of Cash rings a bell.

    I don't disagree with paying something, but it should be when you cash out (sell in the case of an asset) and it shouldn't be 35%.

    The idea that there would be thousands of houses belonging to some small group of families is just scaremongering imo. Even just looking at the basic maths, 1 parents house into 3 children is immediately diluting the gain of each household. Unless you are royalty and inter marrying, they money isnt staying in some familial estate any more than it is today.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,469 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    No in fact I didn't, but them I'm not surprised that you chose to read what you want into other peoples posts, you already want to put your hand into their pockets.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,469 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Its a bill of €75K due to a gift. Thats the point that so badly eludes you.

    g'night now, school in the morning 'n all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,292 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Yes, they actually should, because the dues on such a property have been paid already. Over and over again.

    But I'd accept an actual fair, proportionate and progressive tax, which the current system is in its b0ll0x.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,105 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Inheritance tax should be close to 100% past 1 or 2 million euros worth of wealth per benefactor

    Or else it should be put in a trust that expires after x number of years. Intergenerational wealth is bad for everyone



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,768 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    Well of you have an issue with hap, social housing or whatever that is irrelevant.

    There are too many holes to mention in the "cash out when you sell" model that it would just be another way of avoiding tax for the wealthy.

    And also, nobody ever pays 33% on inheritance - if the inheritance is 335k you pay nothing, if you inherit 10m you pay 31% etc etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,768 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    Sure inheritance tax is inherently progressive- there is a generous tax free allowance and you pay a sliding scale % (on the overall) over that.

    Houses have a sentimental meaning of course but you are inheriting an asset. Replace "house" with "shares" (I.e my Grandfather bought 10k worth of shares in 1970 that are now worth 1m) and its far less emotive



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 833 ✭✭✭greyday


    Most children in this Country live off the wealth of their parents, why should I keep working in the years my wage gets better if not to bequeath to my children?

    Keep in mind that I might pay enough income tax to help a number of people less fortunate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,292 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    A lazy dumb comparison that ignores all the disproportion of local property markets.

    10,000 shares are 10,000 shares, here or on the moon. Children inheriting a 2,000 sq ft house in Leitrim will pay zero inheritance tax. Same house in parts of Dublin, probably 200,000k in tax. On a house already paying higher stamp duty, mortgage interest, LPT and whatever else for its whole life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,768 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    You can give anybody 3k per year tax free (that's officially, if you give them another ball of cash or buy them one4all vouchers or whatever nobody will know). Assuming you have 2 children and are going to live for 20 more years, that's 120k you can bequeath while you are alive. Your wife can do the same, so that's 240k.

    After that your children will get 670k between them free gratis after you die, so you are already at over 1m or so tax free (not including the cash money). For every €1 over that they keep €0.66, so I think they'd be happy either way



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,614 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Should be able to inherit it tax free because tax was paid on the building of it. Tax was paid on everything purchased to furnish it, clean it, heat it, property tax itself..tax paid on the insuring of it…

    why should an asset that’s being given to a person by family member be taxed in addition…? It shouldn’t…..but even more burdens shall be added to the Irish taxpayers as a means of funding every bit of cash going towards fixing every problem for everyone else in the world.

    If it’s sold at a later date, or when rather…. A shed load more tax gets paid.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    That's fine. Do away with all gift tax. Will be helpful for every high earner in the country. They will never have to pay any income tax ever again



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,614 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Not even close to the same premise. A disingenuous statement :)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭Joe1919



    ARTICLE 43

    1     1° The State acknowledges that man, in virtue of his rational being, has the natural right, antecedent to positive law, to the private ownership of external goods.

    2° The State accordingly guarantees to pass no law attempting to abolish the right of private ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath, and inherit property.

    2     1° The State recognises, however, that the exercise of the rights mentioned in the foregoing provisions of this Article ought, in civil society, to be regulated by the principles of social justice.

    2° The State, accordingly, may as occasion requires delimit by law the exercise of the said rights with a view to reconciling their exercise with the exigencies of the common good.

    Irish citizens have the right of 'private ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath, and inherit property' under the constitution but I'm not sure to what extent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,060 ✭✭✭Brian201888


    I mean it feels too obvious to say but is that not an incredibly lazy, dumb comparison?

    They'll pay tax on the Dublin house because of the horror of being handed something far more valuable that the people in Leitrim. These kids in Dublin are still winning the lotto and getting the vast majority of an expensive asset at zero cost to them.

    This is one that always blows my mind when it's discussed, everyone loses all sense of reason. Intergenerational wealth is a pox on society and has been for all of recorded history, our tax rate is amazingly low on it all things considered.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,768 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    Using your example, the person in Leitrim gets a 200k asset for free and the person in Dublin gets a 1m euro asset for around 200k - or 800k cleared. I know which one I would prefer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    You most ceryainly are: your position is that people who inherit should pay large sums of cash to the State, is it not?

    And if the inheritance is in the form of an asset they can not sell, where does the cash come from?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    You can't figure out that with a zero gift tax rate, the man previously on 1m a year salary might decide to work for 1 Euro a year .......... and instead happen to receive a gift of 1m



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,614 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    money from paid work vs inherited.. two different things..can be seen as such.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,036 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    By "amazingly low", you mean "almost the highest in the world"?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,744 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Are there any figures published on how much the revenue commissioners take in from the tax? Or the average size of an estate at the point the will is being executed?


    Anyway, I've no kids. I've five nieces and nephews. Maybe I'll direct in my will that they each get allocated one fifth of my estate to donate to a charity of their choice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    Theoretically but not practically. A family in Dublin are not going to sell the home to buy farmland. It might be the case that very wealthy people do it, but that just supports my case. I inheritance tax does not affect the very wealthy, farmers (rural lobby) or business owners in the same way as it affects families with only a home (the lowest level of "wealth") to pass on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    No, of course they don't but you get some suggesting IT should be 100%, look at the comments on the guardian article. I love the guardian for the different perspective (and also the odd laugh). Here is another one, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/17/i-havent-borrowed-money-from-my-mother-since-1994-but-if-the-banks-wont-lend-me-any-

    Borrowing money for a house off your parents in your 50's. It certainly isn't my world as I grew up in an average working class family.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    "Lowest level of wealth" = House worth 1.1m Euro as per example above.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    A gift is a gift

    Who are you to judge if my very good friend the mercedes dealer gifts me a 100k merc for Christmas? And I happen to gift him 100k in cash. That will be a gift to him, not income. No tax for him either.


    Great plan



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    The issue I have is really that all wealth should be treated the same. There shouldn't be exemptions for farming land or businesses. This is where the real wealth is and if the objective is to prevent inter-generational wealth concentration it would make sense to tackle this.

    A million euros isn't a lot of money anymore. People inherit many multiples of that in businesses or farms. I am certainly not a victim. I will be able to get the inheritance threshold of 335k to each of my 2 kids when they are in their early thirties as it is far better to get it early. I won't feel like I have to apologise for it either, I have worked hard enough and come from nothing to be in the position to be able to do that.

    Seeing as you are defensive about the agricultural property relief (maybe you are from a farming background?), can you explain the logical/moral reason why it is treated differently to passing on a house?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,469 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Why 1 or 2 million? Why such arbitrary figures? What about the difference between inheriting a house in Dublin vs Leitrim and the associated costs?

    I think you are using the tiniest example of "bad" intergenerational wealth to make everyone suffer.

    In any case, depending on the number of kids, 0% would go to the state anyway, so the wealth stays within the same family. Yet if there was 1 kid they get screwed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    The reason for relief for passing on business assets is to prevent businesses being forced to close.


    Suppose you run a shop with your parents. You employ a few other locals too.The shop "assets" are worth a fair bit as it is in the middle of the village even though the income is not great. Your parents pass away. There would be no logic to the taxpayer in having you close down the shop, destroying the business, your job and other people's jobs, so that you can sell the property to pay tax

    The conditions under which you avail of these reliefs are the same for anyone who wishes to avail of them. They are open to everyone. You can buy a shop in a village even if your grew up in Dublin. You can buy one in Dublin if you want. Or any other business

    As it stands, not everyone who inherits these things can avail of them now. Inherit a farm worth 2m? You won't get Ag relief if you are working in Dublin and have a house valued at more than 500k (actually it's all assets cumulative. For 1m your limit would be 250k for assets for you to qualify). Inherit a business worth 1m - you don't get business relief unless you have been working in the business. Etc etc. There are other criteria you need to satisfy for either



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,469 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    I dont have an issue, the point was that why should some people get money (and housing) from the state yet others end up paying for a gift.

    "tax for the wealthy" again with the presumption that someone getting an inheritance is somehow wealthy.

    and yeah, I know how maths works thanks!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,469 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Where is the intergenerational wealth that posters like yourself keep bringing up? Do we have a royal family that I'm unaware of?

    How many of your cousins are you still in contact with? How about your kids and their kids?

    This idea that there are vast swathes of these incredibly wealthy families all living on a commune somewhere sharing bags of money is just insane. Generational wealth in Ireland largely comes from family businesses being passed from generation to generation, not by people leaving their houses to their bloody kids.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    Farmland would just be sold on to other local farmers if the children were unable to pay the tax. The state could become a passive part owner in a small business until they could be bought out later?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Because you assume the 550k is cash and already dissolved, when in reality it's the value of a solid asset, obviously, so I have to point out -again - the flaw in thinking that everyone who inherits has shitloads of money (in this case 75,000 euro) lying around that they can transfer to the State.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,105 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Its not about punishing the children. Its about fixing the economy

    The fact that a house in Dublin is unaffordable is because of wealth inequality

    Ireland's wealth is distributed more unequally than gross income


    This means that over time, prices will become more and more unaffordable to most working people, and assets will be accumulated, more and more by the people who have the most wealth.

    For a functioning economy, we need to reward work, and we need workers to be able to afford to pay for the things they need to survive, including housing

    By not taxing wealth we end up that wealth concentrating into a small group of elites, with asset prices increasing beyond the grasp of working people.

    Ireland isn't the worst place for this, the UK and US are much much worse than Ireland, but we can already see the housing crisis where houses are unaffordable, and then rents go up.

    Life is much much easier for the wealthy who can use all kinds of schemes intended to allow them to keep as much of their wealth while avoiding tax.

    Currently a child can inherit 335k tax free from their parents and pay 33% tax on anything above that.

    Wealthy families have already created trust funds, tax free for their children of 6k per year so by the time their children are 18, they'll already have 108k in the bank, and they can continue to receive these 6k a year payments for as long as both parents are alive without affecting their inheritance at all.

    If you didn't have a trust fund worth north of 100k by the time you're old enough to drink (adjusted for inflation), then you're not in the same category as the people I think need to be targeted with wealth taxes.

    Post edited by Akrasia on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I bet that sounded better in your head.

    Do you think Revenue would construe the exchange of a car for cash as gift giving by both parties?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,557 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Inheritance tax indirectly gives corporations more power over ordinary people - inheritance tax stops families from accumulating wealth over generations, whereas corporations can continue to grow unabated.

    Over 100s of years a family may build up their wealth and assets, then lose a big chunk to inheritance, build up again, lost more. Corporate entities can continue to grow with no obstacles in that time. Given enough time corporations would own most assets in the world, as actual people are hit with punitive taxes during the passing of wealth to next generation, need to sell, corporate giants dont have the same penalties and can hoover up more assets.

    Wealthy individuals are far more likely to be genuinely altruistic with their money than corporations, because corporate entities must prioritise shareholder profit above all else. They give to charity when it will improve their PR or tax situation, they do not exist to operate altruistically. Tackling the wealthy individual makes a great soundbite, but it isnt wealthy individuals exploiting you, the environment, housing markets. Its the wealthy corp.

    And before someone reads this and assumes speaking ill of giant MNCs == communism, communism is for bitter failures jealous of other people's wealth. Ironically a large cross section of same are supporters of inheritance taxes



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    CAT = Capital Acquisitions Tax. It is the tax on a gift.

    Why would you currently transact the transfer of a car as a gift? Both parties would be subject to 33% tax on the entire transaction amount. I think you didn't think it through



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    You're still having difficulty understanding it seems. Try to think about what you would do in both scenarios below

    Scenario 1: You have to pay 75k tax

    Scenario 2: You have to pay 0 tax



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,105 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Our GINI coefficient has increased from ..6 to .8 in the past 12 years

    This means fewer and fewer people are controlling higher proportion of wealth in Ireland. If we don't do anything and this trend continues, we'll get to a point where all of the wealth is owned by a tiny group of people, and the people no longer own anything (this means they rent their homes, and owe more money in debt than they own in property (their clothes, posessions etc)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Scenario 2 being one silimg buying the other out? With what?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    You'll need to tell us your position on the 100% dwelling exemption for children inheriting the house they are living in


    Or even on the 335k threshold?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    I'm asking you.


    You're going on about this 75k as if it actually affects anything other than reducing your windfall. You haven't explained why you think that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    How are these people accumulating wealth and others are not?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,557 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Source on those figures? I cant find anywhere that says our GINI coefficient is 0.8



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,262 ✭✭✭✭Geuze




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,744 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    thanks - interesting that cat B ('to a relative that is not a child') forms approximately half of the inheritance tax take.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    I don't pay corporate taxes, corporations do. Moot point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,262 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Gini co-efficient for disposable income



    Income inequality has been falling


    2020 = 0.285

    2021 = 0.270



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