What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

See a fermoy woman tweet last week that she doesn't feel safe walking down the street due to sexual assaults, then yesterday tweet a refugees welcome 😂😂

A poll on newstalk says 11% of people now believe imigration is now the no.1 issue for the government to deal with.

I’m not pretending the labour force exists in a vacuum though, it’s why I agree with your first paragraph at least.

Your second paragraph is where things start to come off the rails a bit. It isn’t Governments responsibility to develop the economy just for those who are resident in the State, not even particularly for those who are citizens of the State. It’s Governments responsibility to develop the economy to ensure growth and prosperity for future generations who don’t yet even exist, it’s why they do economic forecasting plans like the 2040 plan, precisely because the labour force doesn’t exist in a vacuum.

Incentivising labour force participation is part of this, and more important than immigration policy is education policy. That’s the policy that precedes making Ireland an attractive place for immigrants who come here in their youth and makes them want to stay long-term to become citizens, and for their children to become citizens whom it is hoped, rather than return home, they stay and can participate in the labour force.

YOUR idea of what an immigration policy should be, is one that only permits people to remain in the country while they continue to participate in employment (it’s what employment permits are for), however the fact is that because the labour force doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and it’s understood that immigrants have families, your idea doesn’t even work in theory - Lithuanian guy I spoke of earlier in the thread, met him the other day and he’s working in security now, less than 20 hours a week, brought over his 80 year old mother. Can’t imagine she’ll be contributing to the labour force any time soon!

Because the labour force doesn’t exist in a vacuum, an immigration policy isn’t just concerned with attracting people who have employment already arranged with a sponsor, and it is Governments responsibility to ensure there are appropriate supports in place to encourage people to participate in the labour force (that’s an employment policy, preceded by an education policy), and if the Government claim to want to encourage gender equality, well, that’s a factor in labour force participation too (influenced by social policy).

A 55% employment rate among certain groups is certainly a kick in the teeth for a Government which claims to promote all the good stuff like education, employment, gender equality and whatever else, and if I wanted to be really specific (who am I kidding, of course I do! 😁), I could point to the statistic that suggests the Government are failing Congolese nationals, as the unemployment rate among them, according to the 2016 census at least, was the highest of all groups based on nationality -

Of the 1,009 Congolese in Ireland in April 2016, 527 persons were in the labour force and 333 were unemployed giving them an unemployment rate of 63.2 per cent, the highest of any group.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp11eoi/cp11eoi/lfnmfl/

Because the labour force doesn’t exist in a vacuum, 333 people who are unemployed is statistically insignificant in terms of the labour force, or indeed the population of Ireland as a whole. But, again, if the Government has a thing for encouraging diversity and all that good stuff (which they claim to at least), then their only option is to engage with people who are available for employment, but for whatever reason are proving to be undesirable to employers. I don’t think the statistics demonstrating their lack of employment opportunities is solely the result of racial, ethnic or xenophobic discrimination, it’s certainly not their lack of education, I think it’s most likely at an individual level, and a policy which would prohibit immigrants from entering Ireland based upon promoting negative stereotypes based on their nationality is unlikely ever to be a runner for an Irish Government at least, given both the overall educational attainment and labour force participation rates among immigrants is higher than among White Irish nationals.

That’s the argument from some people alright, but it’s a fallacious one, and they’re referring to needing immigration, they’re not referring to needing immigrants from specific ethnic groups. The reason I suggest it’s a fallacious argument is because it isn’t that we need immigrants who will only fulfil the needs of the current labour force, which is what they argue will contribute to general taxation from which the State pension will be funded; what’s actually needed is for immigrants to be encouraged to stay here long-term and put down roots and contribute to Irish society as a whole, because neither the labour force, nor those who are not in the labour force, exist in a vacuum. The argument that we simply need immigration falls in on itself due to the underlying assumption that there is a constant supply of immigrants who are willing to seek employment here (there isn’t), and the presumption that they will return home (it creates another set of problems if they don’t) -

https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/ireland-needs-four-million-migrants-to-sustain-state-pension-system-39985277.html

Then referenda on abortion and euthanasia begin to look like easy wins to a Government who senses that people are getting more than a bit anxious about all the extra mouths they may have to feed due to the rising cost of living that doesn’t look like it’s going to come back down to normal levels any time soon. Saves a bundle for the State providing for childcare and pensions, but creates another set of problems that can be kicked down the road for future Governments to deal with.

Big confrontation between locals and "asylum seekers" in Wicklow town last night. It's gonna get ugly in this country.

You can't believe a word these anti immigrant people say. No morals. They will lie and distort any situation to demonise migrants even when they know it's just a bunch of locals fighting amongst themselves.

A shift in population demographics is not the same as the point you made the first time which was that Irish people can see that the number of people in Ireland is increasing massively. You can’t honestly expect an opinion based on your own perception to be taken seriously?

What I actually said was -

That’s what multiculturalism is - there aren’t any positives or negatives to it, it’s just a phenomenon which exists in a society where people have different views, backgrounds, language, traditions, beliefs, etc.

By that I mean that I don’t think of it in the same terms as you do, as either a positive or negative.

I don’t think there is any housing crisis either, Dublin is one of the most expensive cities in the world, what does anyone expect?

I don’t think of anyone who is opposed to, or in favour of multiculturalism is a bad person or a good person, I don’t care, because I’m not so childish. I’m more interested in whether or not something is either a good idea or a bad idea.

I didn’t say I couldn’t care less about other people’s viewpoints, I specifically said -

I couldn’t care less about the tiny number of people who’s viewpoints were always what they were, they’re no threat to Irish society whatsoever.

It was in response to your point that people’s views would harden. All I could think is “so what if they do?”, by which I mean they still don’t exist in any great number that would present a a credible threat to Irish society.

It is an appeal to extremes - in common parlance a reductio ad absurdum though, technically, philosophically, the way you constructed the fallacy, it is an appeal to extremes rather than a reductio ad absurdum - because it misrepresents the argument that I offered. I’ve previously considered mentioning the editing to your comments, though they were, as is the case in this instance, irrelevant to the meaning of the comments and therefore I ignored them. 

In as far as Nyirenda is concerned,  it depends on the particulars of his asylum case, certainly as a national of Malawi, a country of origin with a low asylum acceptance rate, I expect there were multiple appeals involved and, if that were the case, then I would argue that Nyirenda is indeed an example of the issues with immigration in this country. Nyirenda is, based on the asylum acceptance rates for Malawi nationals, an economic migrant with incredibly limited economic value. 

Interestingly, in this example, you are deciding to ignore the prevalence of African nationals outside of the Labour Force, previously you defended that as cultural difference, in this case you ignore it entirely, in this case, focus exclusively on the limited proportion of African nationals willing to participate in the Labour Force. Problem is, as regards African nationals, the two halves of the whole are incredibly important, if it were the case that African nationals had comparatively low Labour Force participation rates - as a result of gendered, cultural differences - however, those that participated in the Labour Force were highly skilled immigrants, as is often the case with Indian immigrants, then it would be less of an issue; that African nationals participating in the Labour Force have low employment rates, and that African nationals have low Labour Force participation rates, is the reason that they are incredibly undesirable from a Labour Force perspective. 

As far as your multiculturalism argument is concerned, it is reducible to African nationals are less conducive to economic growth as a result of cultural difference, a reminiscent form of this cultural difference once existed in Ireland, therefore…. and then, to be honest, the actual purpose of the argument is lost. Is this an argument for immigrants of this type? It was once prevalent in Ireland, why is it valuable in an immigrant population? Ireland developed economically and socially, managing to increase Labour Force participation rates as a result, that African nationals are representative of an outdated economic and social model is… quaint, is that the argument?

Interesting, out of interest - unfortunately I’m unable to access LinkedIn - are they actual County Council positions or are they advisory positions connected NGOs?

Portraying the current situation in relation to the housing and accommodation sector in Ireland as a crisis is being dramatic, was my point. It’s a crisis for those people who have no accommodation, and even then as I pointed out previously, it turns out even people who are homeless have standards -

Fr McVerry observed: “The biggest complaint I get from homeless people is they wake up in the morning… the people they’re sharing the room with are gone, and so are all their belongings.

"The second biggest complaint is that they wake up in the middle of the night and people in the room are injecting heroin or smoking crack cocaine in front of them."

https://www.newstalk.com/news/peter-mcverry-some-homeless-people-feel-safer-in-tents-than-in-hostels-1239849

I don’t imagine Nyirenda is a name that’s all that common in Galway 🤔😂

I had checked his LinkedIn profile before I saw your post, but I don’t think it does paint a different picture than the one I portrayed? Article is from 2018 when he was unemployed, and now three years later is self-employed. Surely that demonstrates initiative on his part that he is no longer unemployed and is actively engaged in the labour force?

If Geert had their way, he would never have been permitted entry into the country in the first place. Seems a bit short-sighted IMO.