PME course length being shortened?

Doubt it, maybe a lower certification after one year (but with lower pay of course).

I think the main reason for the 2 years was to bring it from Diploma standard to Masters, with the introduction of the dissertation.

Someone told me In New York they had to do the masters within a certain timeframe after you graduate and start working.

It would fairly annoy current 2nd years if they brought it in though, so a way to make it fair would be lower pay after one year.

Agree wholeheartedly. You need to have rich parents to become a teacher of general subjects today. Takes as long as a significant medical qualification.

Don't get me started on the 'dissertations'. What will get you a 'First' is all too often worthless. Every course is padded with mindless repetition and a huge emphasis on reflective practice which nicely bumps up the time involved for the student.

As a recruiter of new teachers and a TP assessor, I can assure you the two years is not reflected in the skills of the applicants. It does, however, give them lots more jargon.

There are lots of good aspiring teachers who have been let down by poor quality content at the expense of this repetition to enable the Colleges justify a two year course.

This is coming from somebody who did the traditional HDip many years ago and, hand on heart, got no benefit from that course either!

That being said, there are a few Colleges who run superb teacher training programmes, most notably St. Angela's. I notice that course has now extended to five years.

Also much of the problem with developing young teachers today is rooted firmly in the points system. If you can get the points, what does it matter if your physical education skills extend to tying your shoelaces? Or a woodwork teacher who is all thumbs, and, yes, if you want to know, I have seen more quite a few.

Theres no chance of it going back to one year! They have fleeced students for the last 10 years making them do the two years and once youve done it, teaching is so restrictive youre stuck in your lane for life, unless you want to go and try to be a school principal theres no career progression and the money is just about the living wage. You could train to be a doctor or solicitor in the same amount of time for the same amount of money and come out with guaranteed permanent secure employment and a very decent wage.

If your friend wants to work with young children there are other ways of going about that without getting into teaching, honestly she would be wasting time and money going down that route.

Nail on the head.

The amount of "padding" in those modules was unbelievable. Heaps of fluffy theory, very little in terms of brass tacks. A blind man could see they were just filling out the time.

On top of that, if you added it all up we essentially spent 1 of the 2 years of the PME out on school placement.

No way should it be a 2 year course.

Not strictly but all Dips at the moment can do lots of paid hours, the crisis helps with that.

So much padding. I did the last year of the one year dip, I had another job and was teaching a fair amount in the school, sometimes full time for a few weeks at a go, absolutely no bother. 5000 word essays every few weeks, not onerous at all. The one really beneficial thing I did was an elective that wasn't graded in behavioural management (literally the most important thing, as opposed to some of the other nonsense). The rest has done very little to inform my practice as a teacher.

His experience in the insurance sector wont mean anything, sorry to be blunt, im not trying to be, its just a fact! Im not sure what you mean by "soon to be 2 young kids"? Maybe im reading it wrong but I dont know what that means.

For young kids, does he want to work in Primary? he will need to have proficient Irish in order to do the PME in primary level. He could do the PME in second level without the Irish but he will only be qualified to teach at that level and work with teenagers. If he wants to sub in primary as a secondary qualified teacher, he will only be paid the unqualified rate and will have no rights or increments. Primary teaching is by far easier to secure jobs in but he will still be subbing for years before securing a permanent role. Keep in mind, Summers and holidays arent paid unless you get a specific type of contract. Lots of teachers have to sign on during the Summer and arent entitled to any social welfare payments during midterms.

I'd love to change career to become a secondary teacher. I already have an ICT Masters from TCD and have worked in the IT industry in technical and managerial roles for over 20 years. In the past I'd looked at doing a 1 year HDip but with young children and mortgage the time was never right.

I've another 15 years of working life before retirement, am south Dublin based and I feel like I could offer a lot, but cannot afford to take two years out, moreover i really don't want to get into another masters level dissertation, once in a lifetime was enough!

Sorry im not trying to be harsh, just being totally honest about the profession, theres no point in me singing its praises! so yes his hours in school will be shorter and he will have extra holidays but getting to the point where he'll get paid hoildays and a secure job takes years in some cases and some never catch a break and end up leaving the profession deflated and burnt out having never secured a permanent contract despite being wonderful teachers with a wealth of knowledge and great with the kids. Hard work and good rapport with the kids doesn't pay off in teaching allot of the time, im sorry to say that but it's true, theres allot of politics involved allot of the time!

I think its a big risk given that he has a young family, if it doesnt work out he has to go back to the drawing board. There are other professions he could look into that offer shorter hours and more security, for example he could do a masters in occupational therapy. That said, if his heart is set on teaching and he's nothing to lose then he should go for it! Maybe it will work out for him.

Helicopter pilot you say.....hmmmm now there's a thought!

So what was your experience of starting out as a second level teacher salonfire?

Full hours and permanent contract I presume ! Sometimes I wonder do you imagine yourself as a teacher and then suddenly know the reality.

Also, how often have you seen NQTs invigilating or marking state exams in their first or second year teaching?

It does happen but not that often in my experience. Maybe as a last resort .

If I were you I'd stop guaranteeing permanent contracts, and summer work to people who are thinking of going into teaching. These are proper life altering financial decisions for someone with a young family, before posting you should be honest and let the person know "I'm not a teacher but this is what I think...".

You haven't ever taught a day in your life but yet you have the audacity to tell teachers how it is, not for any reason other than you're trolling this forum.

What's your own job by the way? Farmer, accountant, engineer?

What's your own monthly paycheck?

Keep on hurling in that ditch anyway.

It's all dependent on subjects and location. In or around Dublin with good subjects you will be permeant or as good as straight away, any teacher we have that's good is contracted quickly. I corrected pretty much straight away out of my Dip and there is plenty on work in July Provision/summer schools. My gross is decent, and I love my job.

I think subjects and location are the things to weigh. You can always make more money is theory but what does it cost in practice. Teaching offers lots of incentives if your into sport, or debating or chess or anything really, it's lovely to bring the your passions to a new audience.

Teachers often stay in bad schools too, I took career hits early in my career to find the right fit for me, I would hate my job if I'd stayed in my last school, an older person might be faster to know that about themselves too.

I'd recommend it as a job to anyone, it's social, engaging, you have a chance to really effect change, teenagers keep you young and the craic can be brilliant. I had other jobs before. Having a kid turn around after 6 years and ace an exam you've slowly built their confidence and ability towards is a usefuly way to spend your time. It's not for everyone and schools are very, very different. The skill set required for private schools is vastly different from the one needed in a DEIS in a city centre, different teachers suit these environments. A lot of unhappiness in teaching, from what I've seen comes from a mismatch in this or plain old bad management. Not necessarily the job at all.

By the way, has anybody considered the possibility that the reason there's a shortage of teachers is that people are leaving the job in droves? In my school of about 65 teachers, eight went job-sharing this year for the first time (including me), only one of whom has young children. Another 5 took 'career breaks,' and we are unlikely to see them again. We had so many early retirements that we had to reduce the sum collected per retiree to a fiver or the staff wouldn't have been able to cough up.

I hear an awful lot of talk of business ideas, pipe dreams really, because so many people are desperate for a way out. A friend has begun therapy because she wants to find her way to either be content with her job or summon the courage to leave.

I want to get out but I can't see the way at the moment. I dream of a job that would leave me with quality free time. I look ahead and the future of teaching fills me with real dread.

Oh thanks for telling us.

So did you start out your secondary teaching on full salary like the rest of your imaginary teachers in your head.

.. And you don't even need full time hours to get full salary 🤣🤣🤣. 18+ hours , yes ? Is this what you're clutching at. So in all your years experience of teaching have you ever met an NQT who was given this.

..and CID MUST be given after 2 years...

Think that away in your head alright, but please don't be preaching that to any prospective teacher as if it's 100% guaranteed.

yeah its crazy,i only did the teaching because i have a geography and history degree and wanted a job that i could work my farming business around, delighted i did it to be honest i really do enjoy it and im lucky i didnt have to rely on getting a full time job for a long time. it suits me down to the ground but i definitley wouldnt encourage people to do teaching with subjects like mine. i eventually got cid after a 5 years but i did pick and choose the schools i went to for jobs and only could because i had a decent farming income. defintiley wouldnt suit everyone after 5 years of college.

if that was any type of a school with cop on, on how to treat staff and keep them sweet , tea/coffee decent sandwiches and biscuits should have been on offer at that meeting or any lunch time meeting. yeah i keep signing up for online cpd things but when there online i keep forgetting all about them come the evening, if they were atually in the local ed centre i would remember i had to go ! the last two i signed up for i actually only remebered with 15 mins to go.

It's all to do with the dissertation 'thesis' whatever.

I think it's insane puting people into a masters style thesis when they've barely even taught in a school (in general, I know some people could rattle off a thesis over a weekend).

Really, it would make more sense to push the masters title into post qualification. Reduce the time to qualify 'Under conditions' to one year post grad, freeze the payscale for 3 years post qualification until the masters thesis is completed during regular teaching (like it used to , where theory informed practice and vice versa). Then bump up the payscale point once thesis is completed and masters awarded.

...and dump the waste of time that is droichead.

But that won't happen, colleges run education in Ireland.

Look at the big hullabaloo over "The Leaving Cert" when the real problem is "The CAO".

Research by academics put forward the arguments who are employed by the 3rd level institutions that were pushing for it.