Random Renewables Thread

ELM327 · 06-12-2022 11:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119959963#Comment_119959963

Total for today was 4.8kWh. I'm really benefitting as someone cut down the large trees across the road that were blocking out sun for about an hour. Every day in December so far has been 4-5kWh. So, not covering my usage , let alone charging the car. However I have 20 odd panels on my roof for the 8kWp, and room for another 10 in that aspect. Plenty of space in front that doesnt get used either, so ideal for ground mounting. I do think it would be perfectly feasible to get to treble my existing array, or 24kWp approx, without any issues other than finding the funding! If you treble that 4-5kWh you're getting into the territory of covering my daily usage. So then I'd need to add some more for buffer, and then to cover charging the car.

Yes I agree it's not easy and not for everyone, but I'm going to give this a good go. I firmly believe it is possible to be 12 months off grid in Ireland. I also - as I mentioned earlier - have a possibility to add a natural hydro generator to supplement but I do believe that it wont be needed.

People mention ESB limits etc. The only limit is the max inverter on single phase on an NC6 connection meaning that you can only connect a 6kW inverter to the grid. You can have 40kW of inverters in the house but if only one 6kW is grid connected then you're fine. There is no limit on the number or power of panels you can have.

DC999 · 06-12-2022 11:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119961994#Comment_119961994

Orkney islands off Scotland have a hydrogen plant since 2016 as they have a heap of renewable energy they don’t use (wind and wave) and it gets wasted. Summary below from their website:

Grid capacity constraints in Orkney mean that renewable energy created here is often lost or wasted. Now, new projects involving the production of hydrogen could be the answer to the capacity issue. Excess electricity can be used to create hydrogen through electrolysis. This means surplus renewable energy can be stored and used to produce heat, power or fuel for low carbon transport in the future. The European Marine Energy Centre (EMEC) installed a hydrogen production plan at its onshore site in Eday in 2016. This creates hydrogen from excess energy produced by the tidal energy converters testing offshore at its Fall of Warness site and from the island’s community wind turbine.

From: Hydrogen in Orkney

bullit_dodger · 06-12-2022 12:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962700#Comment_119962700

Ohh completely doable - have always said that, and (to be clear) ....I for one am routing for you. My comments sound like I'm negative, I'm not - only stating some realities I think which doesn't make sense.

Going at the very generous (these days) €1k/1Kwp your talking about adding 20Kwp or so, or the ballpark of €20K. Probably closer to €25K with wiring/ground mounts etc. This also brings you into the territory of 3 phase inverters and as unkel has found, sometimes difficult to source - get people to work on etc. ESB limits do matter as while what you say is totally correct about if you only have 6Kw inverter exporting your kosher i, but then your not going to be getting the FIT benifits for 20-30Kwp during the summer which reduces your overall payback timeline. So you'll be on NC7 and even at that ESB may turn around and limit you to 11Kw (depends a little on what your local substation can handled in the reverse direction)

Setting up the panels for winter time will mean that you massively (massively) over produce in summertime. I'd hazzard a guess at 200-250Kwhr/day. Unless your exporting that, your not really utilizing the panels.

On the flip side, I'd imagine that for €10-15K you'd get a professional installed 5Kw turbine which would be making good power for many of the darker days. Assuming your site has good wind resources - of course.

The goal is admirable to be fair, but spending €25K+ to save €200-300/year seems on the winter months (Nov-Feb) ..... is odd. I'm not always for payback timelines on solar. Sure it's a good way to get new people on board, but in this case I don't see the benefit other than to tick a box that your offgrid.

ELM327 · 06-12-2022 12:59pm

I've already spent enough on solar pv and storage that I'm likely to never have an electricity bill again. Certainly not the 400-500 quid ones I used to have. Deemed fit covers the standing charges, so all I'm paying for really is the night rate usage.

I feel I've said it before but if this was solely about saving money I'd stop now. But it isnt, its a doomsday prep scenario. I want to be able to remove the grid, and one step before that is having a system that works completely independently of the grid with a grid off/on switch that I only turn on in the winter to load shift.

I agree with the FIT stuff but if I have a system that is generating the max 6kW feed in for 8 hours on a summer day that's 48kWh every day for 24c, or 11.52 quid a day. Thats just under 700quid a month at 24c feed in tariff. Even if it's only 3 months a year, it means that they can put me on any stupid smart meter they want and I'll still never have a bill. There may come a point where I am 100% off grid but deciding to remain connected as they pay me to be connected to the grid. And that's fine too.

The point of the super overproducing in the summer then would ensure that there is a constant export of 6kW during daylight hours to maximise my income. If that happens then I would look at NC7 and or three phase to make more of a profit (eg turn the consistent 6kW on NC6 to 12kW on NC7 - my MEC) A constant export of 12kW even for 3 months and you're in profit for the year.

It's an interesting path, and one I'm past looking at purely cost savings and more of a vanity project.

I've looked into wind turbines, I really have, but I havent found anything that makes sense. I'd love to get someone that is a domestic installer that could install say a 5kW wind turbine. I have the space, the site is exposed for wind. If there are any referrals please hit me up!

unkel · 06-12-2022 1:32pm

@ELM327 - "so all I'm paying for really is the night rate usage."

Indeed, I'm pretty much the same myself. But that's where my ambitions stop really, I've no further room to extend, if I had, I would probably look into a commercial PV install (for export / FIT)

@ELM327 - "I'm likely to never have an electricity bill again"

Not sure how you figure that one out? You will still have to pay for a lot of night rate units and this will not be offset by FIT, even if you had a smart meter. When you take income tax into account. A 14c FIT is reduced to 7c income after (50%) marginal tax, which is less than you'd pay for night rate electricity. So even if you produce more PV over the year than you use, you will still have a bill. Not only in terms of unit costs, but also the full standing charge. Until you go off grid of course and have your grid connection disconnected 😁

I'm following your progress with interest though, you've come a long way, very quickly!

ELM327 · 06-12-2022 2:09pm

So yes you are right - income tax may be a problem but if I am doing enough to warrant declaring it, I will make sure to document expenses and apportion everything off that I can. And also, it's Ireland, so you know.. "taxes".

My example of never having a bill again might be extreme but if you have enough panels to cover winter usage, in summer you'll be running a local powerplant and especially on NC7 coiuld be raking it in.

slave1 · 06-12-2022 3:07pm

Marginal tax rate in Ireland is 40% not 50% so 14c fit reduced to 8.4c after tax

slave1 · 06-12-2022 3:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963366#Comment_119963366

It's all in the unknown but doubful you can expense anything ELM, you are not carrying out a trade and the expenses are not "exclusively" for FIT. You can claim your WFH relief but if electric is net zero for you then you'll only be left with Broadband

ELM327 · 06-12-2022 3:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963669#Comment_119963669

WFH relief is separate. I already reviewed registering for individual/sole trader for tax reasons when I was starting a side hussle - sidelined for a while now.

If you use your own car you can expense 12.5% of the value * the percentage of commercial use.

Therefore for PV if I'm getting taxed on the income it's absolutely carrying out a trade. And I will expense the money spent on PV multiplied by the percentage of non self use generation as an expense, if they try get me for tax on it at all that is.

unkel · 06-12-2022 3:46pm

@slave1 - "It's all in the unknown but doubful you can expense anything ELM, you are not carrying out a trade and the expenses are not "exclusively" for FIT"

If you are a sole trader and say you are retired or semi-retired from doing other business, I'd say it will be fairly simple to successfully argue that you run the FIT as a business. For that you might have to have a separate system that exclusively produces for FIT with no self-use. And for any business, you can deduct necessary expenses from your income. Like cost of hardware, installer fees, the cost of the NC7 form, etc.

If I had the land / the barns, I would seriously consider doing this myself

ELM327 · 06-12-2022 3:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963883#Comment_119963883

I think if that;'s the requirement you may need two meters (and two standing charges).

Similar to the fuel allowance setup.

graememk · 06-12-2022 5:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963928#Comment_119963928

Considering it for an out farm, no dwelling houses on that connection, so no issue there.

graememk · 06-12-2022 6:52pm

No exposed blade wind turbine.

https://youtu.be/OkRqVBpO2BQ

(Undecided with Matt Ferrell)

Tldr not available yet, designed for large flat roofs. 5kw per "wind mine"

slave1 · 06-12-2022 6:54pm

As I said, it's lies in the unknown at present with zero revenue guidance. I'll welcome guidance and see how we all get on. Perhaps the €200 tax free is your Capital allowance.

I'd love to have country space for a massive array of older panels fed straight into FIT, there's bound to be a flurry of 200 odd watt panels from early adopters hitting the used market in coming years...

unkel · 06-12-2022 8:21pm

I don't think so. 200W panels haven't been sold for about 10 years and there's none for sale. Have a look yourself on DD or adverts. Most people get a PV install done, and that's it. They leave it well alone forever. And why wouldn't they? Efficiency has only increased a tiny bit over those 10 years. From about 15% to a bit over 20% and there is barely any degrading on panels.

Only some eejits like you and me like to upgrade and stick bigger panels on after a few years 😂

redmagic68 · 06-12-2022 9:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119964927#Comment_119964927

I got the larger Jinko 420 panels instead of the 410 as they were stuck somewhere on the slow boat. Installer was saying that actual efficiency could be as high as 27% instead of the guaranteed 20.5%.

I don’t particularly believe him myself but efficiency did take a jump in the last 18 months with the new cells. if they did creep up to 30-35% in the coming years older panels could really start getting changed out especially if the old rails could be used making it cost effective

unkel · 06-12-2022 9:10pm

Last summer was much better than average for PV, if your installer can sell you panels with an efficiency of 27% instead of the rated 21% for the same price, he would be a billionaire by now 😂

Efficiency of panels is going up by about a single percentage point every few years. People are tricked into believing progress is much higher because the panels for sale are increasingly higher wattage. But they are also increasingly bigger. It's like cheating!

redmagic68 · 06-12-2022 10:18pm

I’m well aware he’s talking out his ass and have followed panel efficiency for about 5 years now. Panels that look likely to be 23% efficiency look likely next year.

my point was around when it would become cost effective to change older panels for new.

unkel · 06-12-2022 10:44pm

Depends. Can you do all the work yourself and at what price are you buying the new stuff and selling the old stuff. Personally I have upgraded several times and bought new higher efficiency panels and sold my old panels for more € per kwp than I bought the new ones.

Also unless you are extremely tight for roof space, the best panel imho is not the most efficient panel. But the panel that is cheapest to buy per kwp.

bullit_dodger · 07-12-2022 12:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119965142#Comment_119965142

I keep an eye on some of the more technical bits and bobs which get published and while there are some promising advances (esp around Perovskite) which could come to fruition, they are years away from an end product and at that, it would probably only see us jump to 25% in the mass market. Right now they can make the cells do 25-27%, but they don't last more than a year or so. That's one good thing about the current silicone jobbies we have, even after 10-20 years, there is only minimal degradation any most of them can produce nearly as much as the day they were bought. Who wants a 25% panel if you have to replace it after 18 months.....? Answer = no one :-)

This chart shows the slow (but steady) progress which companies have been doing.

ModulePVeff(rev200708) - Solar panel - Wikipedia

My own "gut feeling" is that the next big thing in solar will be large, cheap (but lower efficiency like 10%) films. Things which you glue onto existing surfaces like perspex roofs. If you can cover an area cheaply, then even 10% efficiency would be financially viable and worthwhile.

slave1 · 07-12-2022 1:37am

Best efficiency you can get is bifocal on top of a steel roof, hmmmmmmm

graememk · 07-12-2022 11:37am

For the fellow electronics nerds.

https://youtu.be/_H4IP_iEzWw

Hoymiles microinverter teardown and circuit analysis

bullit_dodger · 07-12-2022 12:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966603#Comment_119966603

LOL - for a minute there I thought it was "Ozzy man reviews" (look it up on google)

That's interesting as I have that exact micro-inverter, thanks Graeme

Jonathan · 07-12-2022 2:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119858728#Comment_119858728

Got my first useful SMS from this service just now (copied below). Previous SMS were just general tips and tricks.

Peak event: There is going to be a peak event this evening from 4-8pm and its looking likely that there will be one tomorrow evening too. Taking control of your electricity usage will help support security of supply. Please try to swap ovens for air fryers or microwaves, and if you can, push out doing laundry between 4-8pm. Thank you.

unkel · 07-12-2022 3:03pm

Yes and also got my One4All card today. It has zero value for now but if you answer more than half of those messages you will get €30 on it.

Gotta love winter sun in Ireland. Producing a ton of PV today, washing machine and dryer running all day, heaters (mining rigs) on to pump a lot of heat into the house. And battery near full, still charging at the moment (after it took a hit from all that washing from 8AM this morning)

I for one will be using pretty much zero electricity from the grid during the 15 day rate / peak hours. Or during this "peak event". As I do most days although sometimes I run out (20kWh battery, soon somewhere between 30-42kWh) but that is more because of mis (micro) management or mistakes. Will need to do some more automation here as it is taking up too much of my time. I don't mind, but still...

bullit_dodger · 07-12-2022 3:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119964593#Comment_119964593

I see "just have a think" was also drumming this up within the last week or two also.

(1053) Aeromine Rooftop Wind. Static. Silent. 50% more power than Solar PV. What's not to like? - YouTube

Me? I'm very skeptical. I understand the general principles, but would like to see some hard figures and and the fact that they haven't released any is......worrying. Many many times we've seen these "developed by wind engineers in conjuction with NASA" or some other high profile entity, only to find out that it's rubbish.

Still I'd hope that it works.

unkel · 07-12-2022 3:59pm

Yeah I saw the one a few weeks ago. Very skeptical too. Your man is good for following for getting new ideas and technologies but he's not that practical.

unkel · 07-12-2022 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966603#Comment_119966603

Gotta love Aussie incorrectness. I don't think you'd get away with calling an ESB employee an "oompa loompa" here 😂

DC999 · 07-12-2022 4:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967208#Comment_119967208

Yeah, it's a good message alright. And it will make me reduce the usage for those peak hours. I'm on a 24hr meter (so no cost difference) but still good to remind me the be kind to the grid when it's heavy demand. The expected demand for today is close to the all-time high which was this day in 2020 (only 150MW lower today). EirGrid Group plc - Smart Grid Dashboard

the_amazing_raisin · 07-12-2022 4:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967656#Comment_119967656

Yeah I saw an article about them a month or two ago. Very fancy looking website and not a huge amount else

The one thing they have going which a bunch of other scammers/startups don't is they actually have a test installation going. So we'll see how they do at least

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