Who has Priority here? Almost Fatal Accident

magicbastarder · 09-12-2022 8:35pm

that's not a road on which i'd suggest to a novice cyclist that they should take the road; IIRC it's fast and busy, and there are two lanes with zero hard shoulder. it's a mess for cycling.

Mrs Dempsey · 09-12-2022 8:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119976801#Comment_119976801

I'm tempted to be drawn into debate on this but I decline. Putting it figuratively; why wrestle with a pig? both will get dirty but the pig will enjoy it.

magicbastarder · 09-12-2022 8:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119976801#Comment_119976801

you say the cyclist was legally obliged to stop; there is no yield sign, and they are not changing direction.

if you think that a motorist seeing a cyclist in this context, and braking or slowing to avoid what would appear to be an obvious hazard, constitutes 'mind reading' then i fear we are not going to see eye to eye.

magicbastarder · 09-12-2022 8:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119976818#Comment_119976818

you are wiser than i am.

Jim_Hodge · 09-12-2022 8:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119976804#Comment_119976804

Agreed but the cyclists must stop before crossing that entrance road.

Seth Brundle · 09-12-2022 9:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119976801#Comment_119976801

The driver was on the road and was mid turn before the cyclist entered the road.

You're talking about a split second here. The driver made the decision to turn without knowing absolutely sure If their actions would cause the cyclist to brake, etc. (I doubt they cared either.)

The motorist had the right of way in this case and took due care.

But as there is no yield signage it could probably be easily demonstrated in court that it is reasonable to assume that the cyclist would continue straight ahead and by virtue of the poor infrastructure, maintained their right of way.

I would also say that the driver was not driving with due care. They didn't slow down or show any thought that the cyclist might somehow make it through in front of them. That their windows aren't clear also shows that there is a lack of care on display.

I observe what other road users are doing, but I do not make assumptions about what they might do/will do.

You have to make assumptions and have to assume multiple things in order to be prepared for different eventualities. You assume a child on a bike will pull out in front of you. You assume someone could walk out in front of the stopped bus that you plan on overtaking and so on.

If you don't make assumptions when driving then I'll confidently say that your a crap driver!

monkeybutter · 09-12-2022 9:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119976804#Comment_119976804

what safety do you think experience offers in this situation?

You are relying on people passing you out as you cycle in a straight line

Not much to it really

Like this guy cycles and has cameras and had trouble crossing the road

Still stihl waters 3 · 09-12-2022 9:14pm

There's 2 of ye in it but the driver obviously saw you but failed to slow down to let you on your way, but there's no point being right in the morgue, cycle defensively rather than expecting the driver to do your thinking for you

magicbastarder · 09-12-2022 9:38pm

Like this guy cycles and has cameras and had trouble crossing the road

he's going in a straight line, maintaining course. it's the motorist who was 'crossing'; over the cycle lane with a cyclist clearly in it.

magicbastarder · 09-12-2022 9:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119976876#Comment_119976876

there's not even a yield sign, let alone a stop sign though. and as the cyclist is continuining straight on the major road, i'd be curious where the legal basis would be that the cyclist must stop.

again, it's a mess of a junction.

the situation below is one where the planners have made it clear where priority lies, and even with that, it's shoddy; instead of making pub patrons yield to cyclists cycling along a road, the cyclists are expected to yield to pub patrons! at least this is one road where it's safe to ignore the cycle path and take the road.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4247404,-6.2295573,3a,75y,301.14h,88.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sopbnHs2BSxP4X5CjNVqFbQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Jim_Hodge · 09-12-2022 10:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119977102#Comment_119977102

The cyclist is coming off a path and crossing a road. He had no right to continue straight across without stopping and checking. The cycle path doesn't continue across the entrance to the road.

Mrs Dempsey · 09-12-2022 10:18pm

I've never saw the gate open but there is (just about) a yield triangle. I unyieldingly cycle to the right of the line demarking the "cycle lane".

https://earth.google.com/web/@52.27396557,-9.7005861,12.67545223a,0d,60y,111.21956605h,85t,0r/data=IhoKFndVbjRSVTUyRlRDdDFwUjVtZS10ZFEQAg

CramCycle · 09-12-2022 11:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119976801#Comment_119976801

The driver overtook to give 2 seconds to react, you would fail a driving test and have a heap of penalty points if seen by a Garda for that. Your wilful ignorance of both the law and decency. By your reckoning a pedestrian and a cyclist must stop at every driveway. If we want to get really pedantic, the road paint and signage is incorrect but that yellow dashed line is the edge of a carriageway. There is no yield for the cyclist, the motorist should have observed them.

Its actually painful to think some road users think once they get ahead, even at the literal last 2 seconds, they can control the road.

CramCycle · 09-12-2022 11:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119976876#Comment_119976876

The road signage actually makes it closer to a driveway onto the dual carriageway rather than a road (although it is one). To be honest the council have alot to answer for there. Just so people are clear, a cyclist has to yield if the motorist is ahead and indicates in good time, not if they come past at the last second and cannot complete the maneuver in suitable time. Imagine it was a bus lane rather than a cycle track, do you think that maneuver would have been ok?

Jim_Hodge · 09-12-2022 11:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119977748#Comment_119977748

Absurd analogy. A bus lane continues along the roadway. This cycle lane ends before the end of the footpath. It's a "Stop and check before crossing the road" situation. It is not a straight through for cyclists or pedestrians.

chooseusername · 09-12-2022 11:33pm

The Highway Code in UK changed this year. It now advises that the cyclist going straight ahead, as in this case has right of way, whether on the main highway or cycle lane. They have the same right as a motor vehicle.

micar · 09-12-2022 11:40pm

Car at fault all day long.

Why motorists think it's OK to go past a cyclist and take an immediate left turn is beyond me.

He/she should have held back and stayed behind you

magicbastarder · 09-12-2022 11:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119977821#Comment_119977821

whether the cycle lane ends or not is ambiguous, based on the fact that there's no signage to that effect. what is clear is that the motorist has to leave their lane to take the left, and must yield to traffic on their left. they failed to do so.

instead of easing off the gas for a second or two, they passed a cyclist when they knew they were about to turn left across the path of the cyclist. that was either wilful or 'accidental' and neither option says much for the motorist.

but let's take at face value the idea that, as you say, the cycle lane ends before the end of the footpath - once the cyclist proceeds past the supposed end of the cycle lane, they are instantly breaking the law; they're not allowed cycle on a footpath. they should immediately dismount and proceed as a pedestrian. or else hop off the kerb and merge (with no provision for doing so, whether safely designed or not)

again, it's just a lazily designed junction (i say designed, but it's clear no-one 'designed' that, it's an error of omission rather than comission).

tjhook · 10-12-2022 12:11am

I think in these cases, the outcome in court generally results in the insured party being held liable for the injured party, regardless of who should have done what. It's not much consolation to either.

I think the cyclist should have held back before entering the road, but if there was a collision there wouldn't be any winners.

Seth Brundle · 10-12-2022 1:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119978009#Comment_119978009

An outcome in court would not be biased against someone simply because they are insured.

The bias would be against the person who would be deemed to have posed a greater risk to others. In this scenario, the driver of a large heavy object rather than the vulnerable user. It just so happens that drivers of large heavy objects are legally mandated to hold insurance to cover claims for this very kind of incident.

CramCycle · 10-12-2022 2:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119977821#Comment_119977821

Where does it end as a matter of interest? Where is the signage for the turn. There isn't even a drop down, there is no yield sign like there is every other place that you are meant to cede right of way. There isn't technically a roadway turn there (there should be). If you want to be a pedant the yellow line should have curved around the turn. So let's focus on the facts, the motorist overtook and left hooked the cyclist, does not matter if he was part of the roadway or not. It's dangerous driving. If you can't see it, then there isn't much point discussing it. Regardless of whether he should have yielded in those two seconds, with no yield sign and no road demarcations, all of that doesn't change the drivers behaviour, which whether you believing was legal or not, was still dangerous.

horse7 · 10-12-2022 10:38am

Car as priority IMO, pedestrian/cyclist should check before crossing road.

magicbastarder · 10-12-2022 11:37am

from the ROTR;

Vehicles do not have an automatic right of way on the road. The overriding rule is, in all circumstances, to proceed with caution.

also

Motorists should watch for cyclists emerging from the end of a cycle track

'should' in the ROTR means that it's general advice, not underpinned by law. but it'd be a nice detail to bring up in case something like this ever went to court.

also from the ROTR:

Turning left from a major road to a minor road

Check your mirrors well in advance for traffic following behind you.

Give a left-turn signal and, when safe, slow down.

Keep as close as you safely can to the left-hand edge of the road, using your mirrors to watch for cyclists or motorcyclists coming up on your left.

the last line - the motorist in the clip didn't even need to check mirrors, they passed the cyclist and then turned left across them.

10-12-2022 12:09pm

On the other side of the road for cars exiting the factory, the stop line for cars is out way past where it is assumed there is a cycle lane. If there is a cycle lane on that part of the road, why is the stop line that far out?

With no clear markings I would have assumed anyone on the footpath would stop or at least slow down and check the way is clear before ploughing through the crossing. It's what I'd do. I doesn't take much to throw a look over your shoulder, and the cyclist said he had a mirror and did see the car coming.

Mimon · 10-12-2022 12:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119974871#Comment_119974871

This would be my philosophy also.

Got marked down in my driving test for stopping on a left turn as a cyclist was belting it down the hill approaching the junction. There was a yield sign for the cyclist on his footpath bike lane but as he was belting it down and didn't look to be slowing I made the judgement that he may not yield and made the decision to stop.

Thought it was a bit unjust to mark me down for this. Only got 3 minors in total so didn't effect the result at least

Spook_ie · 10-12-2022 12:40pm

ignoring the hyperbole from drivers and cyclists, I would primarily blame the council. If you look back through Google images of the junction you can see how it evolved ( or even devolved ) over a period of time.

2011 You can see the vestiges of the stop line before the footpath, which would have allowed for the painting of a cycle lane across the junction but never was, you can also see what looks like the vestiges of an arrow on the cycle track

2022 The Stop line has been moved, because there is now a solid white line that traffic (including cyclists) must illegally cross or pass slightly to the right of, cue the keep right sign still being there

Which is not the same as the ones in places like Drumcondra

All in all I think we can agree it's a **** show from the council.

What can we conclude, as there is no discernable cycle lane or footpath across the junction pedestrians and cyclists SHOULD look in both directions before they cross.

As per standard RotR IF a pedestrian has begun to cross the road then traffic must yield to the pedestrian at a junction. This should in reality apply to cyclists as well when there is no discernable cycle lane.

GreeBo · 10-12-2022 12:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119977847#Comment_119977847

Thats great and welcome, but neither of those scenarios are at play here.

The cycle lane ended at the junction. If your lane ends you dont have any right of way to join or cross another lane.

GreeBo · 10-12-2022 12:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119978312#Comment_119978312

If the car jumped the curb to go into the entrance they would have been in the wrong, they didnt. The OP effectively jumped the curb into the roadway after their lane ended.

astrofool · 10-12-2022 12:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119978910#Comment_119978910

If you were writing the software for self-driving systems you would have the vehicle stop and wait in those circumstances, I'd have been very annoyed at getting a minor mark for that.

GreeBo · 10-12-2022 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119978956#Comment_119978956

If you were writing software for a computer cyclist you would have it obey road signs :)

Brendan Bendar · 10-12-2022 12:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058275162/who-has-priority-here-almost-fatal-accident

You are dead wrong CB.

I’d suck it up and let it go, dude.

Safe cycling.

Feisar · 10-12-2022 12:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119974964#Comment_119974964

If I was in a car I'd be wary of a gobsh*te committing suicide so I would always assume the safe side and wait for them to go.

magicbastarder · 10-12-2022 12:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119978863#Comment_119978863

again, bad design/maintenance - if you look at the history on google street view, the stop line for cars is before the cycle lane from 2011 to 2021. sometime between Sept 2021 and Aug 2022, the new stop line is painted a metre or two past where it had originally been. which was probably 'accidental' - there was so little of the old line left whoever painted the new one may not have known they were painting it in a different position.

i suspect the junction was 'designed' to have the stop line in the old position. the only maintenance done on the cycle lane that appears in the street view history is that they lifted the old red layer off it as it was badly degraded.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.8701965,-8.4796166,3a,75y,180.88h,56.74t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s4dJ7_LkcQUZ9ciCbNBhTSw!2e0!5s20110801T000000!7i13312!8i6656

astrofool · 10-12-2022 1:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119978977#Comment_119978977

I think we'll have fully functioning sentient androids before that was possible, the training models for it don't exist.

Wildly Boaring · 10-12-2022 1:08pm

And this is why these kind of cycle lanes are only fit for primary school kids.

Out on the road OP and take the lane.

Cycle lane just disappearing for entrance into a factory, typical of coucil engineers without a clue. Driver in the right. So next time look after yourself and save the hassle.

magicbastarder · 10-12-2022 1:10pm

as mentioned earlier in the thread - that's a fast road i wouldn't fancy cycling on, there's not a lot of wiggle room for drivers to pull out around you if you're on a bike.

FishOnABike · 10-12-2022 1:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119978312#Comment_119978312

If a jogger running up (or down) the hill ran across the junction without looking and ran into the side of a car who would be at fault?

A cyclist is in the exact same position as a jogger or pedestrian at that junction.

Eoinbmw · 10-12-2022 1:22pm

From the video ye both fecked up and both should cycle/drive more defensibly!

Wildly Boaring · 10-12-2022 1:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119979061#Comment_119979061

Ah airport road in cork.

Car has right of way until council sort the junction.

Time to start sending local roads engineer a few emails so.

Hate these useless lanes. Stopping for a bloody factory enterance...

FishOnABike · 10-12-2022 1:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119979103#Comment_119979103

When they do sort it I suspect a car turning left will still have right of way. They'll just paint a yield triangle before the edge of the footpath to clarify that cyclists should yield to turning traffic (and traffic exiting the junction onto the main road).

Wildly Boaring · 10-12-2022 1:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119979178#Comment_119979178

Probably

Brendan Bendar · 10-12-2022 1:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119979178#Comment_119979178

Correct and right, lot of dudes, especially the gimps on scooters seem to think they can just barrel on and expect the car driver to know their intentions.

The sooner these folk understand the rules of the road apply to them the safer they will be.

Seth Brundle · 10-12-2022 2:06pm

The sooner these folk understand the rules of the road apply to them the safer they will be.

To be fair, there is a large portion of road users (regardless of transport mode) who don't seem to understand (or care about) the rules of the road. This would be obvious to anyone who looks.

Feisar · 10-12-2022 2:07pm

I don't know enough to comment on who's right or wrong, however what a dick move by the driver. I always check my mirror to see if someone is coming up my inside and let them on if there is. On this occasion they could see you!

FreshCoffee · 10-12-2022 2:13pm

Juts for clarity, the junction is not a 'factory entrance'. If you take the left turn, up the road on the left is the entrance to a private house and further up again on the right is the gated entrance to the factory. The junction discussed is a junction of two council roads.

In my opinion, the cycle lane clearly ended before the junction with a sign for the cyclist to re-join the road. The motorist had right of way over anyone leaving the footpath and entering the roadway at that point. Nonetheless both parties should have been paying more attention to traffic around them and driving/cycling defensively to avoid an accident at a poorly designed junction.

Jayuu · 10-12-2022 2:17pm

Awful thing to happen to the OP and I'm glad he wasn't hurt but let's not assume the driver is some sort of careless idiot. They may have assumed the OP was going to stop as the driver had signalled that they were turning left and were likely to reach the junction first. For all we know irrespective of what they OP was wearing they may have just missed seeing him. Unless they turned up here and commented we'll never know their side of the story.

What we do know if that the junction is an absolute mess and should be sorted immediately to make it completely clear where the right of way is so that nobody is likely to be in that situation again. I'm not sure if the responsibility of fixing this lies with TTI or the local council but I hope the OP has contacted somebody in officialdom with their video and the suggestion that remedial work needs to be done on the junction as soon as possible. It can't be that hard to rectify this.

magicbastarder · 10-12-2022 2:18pm

In my opinion, the cycle lane clearly ended before the junction with a sign for the cyclist to re-join the road.

there's nothing clear about that though; as mentioned, in the original street view, the stop line for the minor road takes the footpath and cycle path into account, so that would suggest the cycle path continues on the inside of the arrow sign.

Jayuu · 10-12-2022 2:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119975494#Comment_119975494

Is this a private entrance? I don't know where this is exactly.

Also given the lack of properly designated lines at the junction it could be very easy for somebody driving to assume the bike lane stops at the junction and they have priority through it.

Brendan Bendar · 10-12-2022 2:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119979243#Comment_119979243

Correct and right,however the driver in this case was ‘in the right’ it’s difficult enough to watch what’s in front of you on the road and behind you on the road.

When another dimension is introduced like a cyclist traveling on the inside decides to barrel across a road where,for me anyway’ it’s obvious that the cycle lane ends and a yield or a stop is required, then it’s their blame completely.

Common sense required here.Doesn’t seem to be much of it from sources .

magicbastarder · 10-12-2022 2:24pm

They may have assumed the OP was going to stop as the driver had signalled that they were turning left

they'd signalled their intention to someone *in front of them* though. they passed the cyclist only about a second or so before they started the turn. and it's a well lit road, if you watch the video. there would be little excuse for not seeing the cyclist.

but you're right that the OP should contact the local authority about that junction.

Who has Priority here? Almost Fatal Accident

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