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Who has Priority here? Almost Fatal Accident

13567

Answers

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    In the old pics the cycle lane is on right, but according to the signs now the cycle lane is on the left, so it's a complete mess.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    What utter nonsense. If it is too difficult for you to know what is ahead and behind you while driving that you cant manage to predict that a cyclist travelling parallel to you might not stop then FFS please hand back your driving licence. You are telling us that you are not competent to be driving



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The stop line for the minor road took the footpath and cycle path into account in 2011. Eleven years ago.

    It's been moved since, and is very clear where it is now. Whether that move was an error or not, it is what current road users would be guided by.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,249 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    so you agree they messed up further, an already badly designed junction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,750 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    What would the OP say to the local authority about that junction.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,249 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    something simple like 'can you please repaint it correctly and make clear who has priority' would be a simple enough start.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭Viscount Aggro


    I would be going after the driver, to have it out.

    I always stop at similar junctions.

    Reminds me of an altercation in Rathmines, out from Church avenue.

    A motorist pulled straight out in front of me, tried to kill me.

    I laid my bike in road in front of her, had a few verbals back and forth.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,750 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar



    Yes, I get that , how would they “repaint it correctly and make it clear who has priority”

    Its pretty clear to me based on the vid who has priority.

    A small bit of cop on and common sense would tell you that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    Yes but they may have assumed they had right of way on the junction given we all agree it's not entirely clear. Because we haven't the driver's side of the story we can't make an assessment of their thought process in the incident.

    Exactly. This would sort it. It wouldn't be a big job for anybody.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,750 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    It’s perfectly clear to me …….let’s not complicate a simple enough common sense situation



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,550 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    The OP was in the wrong. There are no cycle lane markings on the road in the area of the junction.

    I looked at the video again. The car was clearly indicating well in advance of the left turn and was already rounding the corner before the OP reached the edge of the footpath / cycle lane. OP appears to have incorrectly assumed they had right of way.

    A rule of thumb - if the OP would have ended up T-boning the car the OP would be in the wrong. If the car would have ended up T-boning the OP the car driver would be in the wrong. i.e. car has right of way unless the cyclist (or pedestrian) has already entered the junction bere the car starts to turn left.

    Could easily say what a dick move by the cyclist. They could see there were no cycle lane markings through the junction and the driver had indicated they were turning left. On this occasion they could see the car indicating.

    Stopping on an 80km/h busy main road during peak commute hours would create a significant risk of a rere end collision, if not for the car stopping and the car immediately behind, then for cars further back due to the accordion effect.

    It would be clearer/safer if the end of the cycle lane was clearly marked with a yield marking and end of cycle lane sign at the kerb and a start of cycle lane sign placed at the far side of the junction.

    From the video the OP appears to be cycling on the wrong side of the white line. Signs further down and further up the hill show the cycle lane to the left of the line and pedestrians to the right.

    FWIW the entire length of that footpath?/cycle lane? is an absolute sambles. It doen't look wide enough for a segregated footpath / cycle lane. There's no signage at the start, what few signs there are are too far apart and there are no surface markings at all.

    It needs signs at the start and end, repeated every 200m. Surface markings every 200m, staggered with the signs so there's some indication every 100m. Yield and end of cycle lane markings and signs at the juncion and cycle lane signs and surface markings after the junction.

    If you look at the mess further up the hill, just beyond the traffic lights - some sort of wierd chokepoint/chicane aroud a wall, poles and bollards in the middle of the cycle lane, wtf!!!

    If this is what passes for cycling infrastructure I couldn't blame cyclists for avoiding cycle lanes. Calling this shambles an afterthought would be an undeserved complement.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,249 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Stopping on an 80km/h busy main road during peak commute hours would create a significant risk of a rere end collision, if not for the car stopping and the car immediately behind, then for cars further back due to the accordion effect.

    there's a far greater danger created by not slowing for a cyclist who will clearly reach the junction at about the same time the driver will, and who you will potentially left hook, than there is by easing off the gas for a few seconds.

    the thread title asks 'who has priority' but many people (me included) have given their verdict on who is in the wrong. you can have priority (and i don't even think that is clear here) and still be in the wrong. avoiding a collision takes precedence over priority.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,750 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    You see, this is the major problem with cyclists.

    The story here is …..clearly…. the cyclist is is in the wrong…..suck it up.

    Then you have folk coming on with, quite frankly , bullshit arguments as to what everyone should do.

    There would have been no problem if the cyclist instead of having all kinds of technology used ordinary common sense and stopped at the break in the cycle lane, fessed up and said ‘My Bad’ and learned a lesson instead of making a fool of themselves on here.

    Sometimes you are wrong dude, put up your hand..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,253 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Why is the onus on the car, who you admit has priority, to avoid the accident rather than the bike, which does not have priority and will undoubtedly lose any altercation?


    The thread title asks who has priority and the answer is clear cut, the car does. Anything else is just lycra tinted glasses speaking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    You did see the post that quoted this point from Rules of the Road, right?

    Motorists should watch for cyclists emerging from the end of a cycle track



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,750 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Yes, I did…….motorists should watch out for everything.

    How does that tie in with the Thread Title?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,265 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    He wasn't though. He didn't merge into the road to his right, as he should gave. He rode though the end of the path into a road.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    It ties in with your claim that "clearly…. the cyclist is is in the wrong". Clearly, the motorist didn't watch out for cyclists emerging from the end of a cycle track. So clearly, the motorist is is in the wrong.

    He emerged from the end of a cycle track. Motorists should watch out for cyclists emerging from the end of a cycle track.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,265 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    He didn't merge at the end of the cycle path. That was to his right, just at the start of the ramp. And if he had done that he wouldn't have been in the car's path. I'm a cyclist and I can't fathom how anybody doesn't see that the OP kept going straight when it was clear he should have merged to the right or stopped and crossed the road.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,835 ✭✭✭Allinall


    “Should watch out for” doesn’t in any way imply right of way.

    That needs to be clarified for those that don’t understand.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,750 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Andrew if you want to waste peoples time , go right ahead….. the floor is yours.

    Of course motorists should watch out for cyclists, but if cyclists act like idiots then suck it up and admit it.

    Common sense Andrew.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,550 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    and the cyclist could have eased off the pedals and the car would have been clear of the junction before the cyclist got to it.

    Even then the cyclist should perform a 'Jesus look' over their shoulder approaching the junction and be prepared to yield to traffic that has the right of way.

    Everyone has a responsibility to be observent and avoid a collision if possible but there is a greater responsibility on the person who is in the wrong to do the right thing in the first place and avoid creating the possibility of a collision.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Anything else is just lycra tinted glasses speaking.

    It's off topic but isn't it odd how some people are obsessed with a form of clothing used by people involved in a sport and bizarrely think it is clever if they can intertwine it into an insult.

    The irony is that I'd say the OP (and most people who would use the cycle path we're discussing) are less likely to be sports cyclists!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,253 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Did you see this quote from the ROTR

    "Before changing position on the road, cyclists should 'look, signal in good time and look again' to ensure that it is safe to proceed."



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,253 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    "watch" doesnt mean stop or yield or give right of way...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    So motorists should watch out for cyclists to be able to see them clearly as they mow them down?

    Cyclist wasn't on the road.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Thanks for your permission to post, you're too kind, really.

    Common sense would suggest that if you just passed out a cyclist two seconds ago, you shouldn't be too surprised when he reappears on your inside. You're supposed to check that a junction is clear before you enter it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,265 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    Cyclist most certainly was on the road. He had passed the cycle path. How can you not see this?

    A waste of time discussing any further as it's just repetitive attempts to get the last word, be it correct or not. So, all yours...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    How could he have "changed position on the road" when he was on the cycle lane?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,835 ✭✭✭Allinall




  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    The cyclist did not have the right of way here as he was not cycling in the road. As he was not cycling on the road, the driver did not "overtake" - he drove normally on the road. In any case, it is not permitted to cycle to the left of traffic that had indicated its intention to turn left. The left turning traffic that has assumed the primary position has priority. So whatever way you cut it, the rules of the road are clear that he did not have the right of way. Again, nowhere in the rules of the road does it state that I, as a driver, am obliged to assume that cyclists who are not even on the road are cycling recklessly. I am a driver, not a mind reader.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,249 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    In any case, it is not permitted to cycle to the left of traffic that had indicated its intention to turn left.

    whatever else about what you posted, that is comical. the motorist had indicated (presumably!) *before* they reached the cyclist. the motorist indicated, then (barely) passed the cyclist and turned left. trying to apply your logic here would legalise left hooks.

    the law you are referring to is intended for cyclists who are cycling in slow moving traffic, moving more slowly than they are, and it is not relevant here.


    if you think that a thought process of 'oh, there's a cyclist ahead who i'm about to turn left across, i'd better be careful' is akin to mind reading, you have a very strange definition of mind reading. your first responsibility as a motorist (and indeed as any form of traffic) is caution and avoidance of collisions. arguments about priority and right of way are secondary to that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    Cars turning left have the right of way by default if the cyclist does not assume the primary position. This does not give a motorist the right to drive recklessly, but if the cyclist isn't even on the road then the idea that a driver shouldn't turn left until the cyclist has cleared a crossing it hasn't even entered is completely absurd.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Rules are rules but if you're cycling you should be protecting yourself

    Law is no use if you're lying in hospital drivers do stupid **** so you'd stop at the edge of footpath



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Why do you think the ROTR tells motorists to watch out for cyclists?



  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Sono Topolino



    The law does not apply to slow moving traffic only. It applies to all instances of cyclists attempting to pass by traffic that has indicated its intention to turn left, and is intended to prevent the exact situation OP experience. By all means cycle to the left of traffic (on a cycle lane or otherwise) but do not assume that you have priority on traffic turning to the left. Again, this is no excuse for dangerous driving but as the late great Richard Grogan said "that's the law and that's a fact".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,265 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    .........



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,750 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Stop trying to waste peoples time, dude.

    This has been discussed with and dealt with several posts previous to this.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Davis Fancy Science


    If I was walking across that junction I'd stop and check behind for cars turning. Why is it any different on a cycle ?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    Exactly. A segregated cycle lane such as the one OP was on is not even a "lane" for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The cyclist wasn't attempting to pass anything. The driver had his left indicator on BEFORE he passed the cyclist. You don't get to claim priority over traffic on your left by passing them with your indicator on. Would you be ok with me cutting you up on the motorway, once I pass you with my indicator on?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    If you were driving and you had just passed a cyclist one second earlier, would you stop and give way?

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,492 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Ok, I'll answer then, if you're too embarrassed to answer. The reason for telling motorists to watch out for cyclists at the end of cycle lanes like this is so that motorists will avoid hitting, or nearly hitting cyclists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,550 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    From the video, in this instace it would appear the cyclist would have hit the car, not the other way around.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,750 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Not embarrassed in the slightest, your posts are the embarrassment.

    Trying to defend the indefensible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,835 ✭✭✭Allinall


    I’m still trying to find out who was mowed down.

    Not even just hit, but mowed down.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Davis Fancy Science


    Maybe. What's that got to do with doing the same thing as a pedestrian ? Also, was there anything behind the car that would have made it dangerous for him to essentially stop on the road with nothing in front of him ?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,184 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Lol, for all the talk about the junction, for the pedants here. That broken yellow line indicates the edge of a carriageway. There is no marking indicating the end of a cycle track or even a yield. I'm surprised the NCBI wouldn't kick up a fuss at those junction markers. The fact the yellow lines continue and don't go around the corner actually indicates it is not a roadway but something akin to a driveway. Now this is clearly a mistake by the road engineer after they done work there over a year ago, but the cycle lane does not end, in fact, to be a pedant, it may not even exist as the signage is incorrect. So there are so many errors in the road markings that no one here is or could be right. Taking that aside, do any of you think, regardless of your vehicle or if your just a pedestrian, that the driving was safe or acceptable. Forget the right of way, is it good or safe driving? Simple question. I've been driving years, regardless of whether I felt he should yield or not, I wouldn't have went for it. Yes the cycling leaves alot to be desired (sorry but IMO those rear view mirrors on bikes are not as good as a head turn for multiple reasons) but that doesn't give me, as a motorist, carte blanche to plough on regardless and anyone who thinks it does needs some serious conversations with a psychiatrist. I drive alot, pillocks with head phones stepping out at junctions all the time but that doesn't mean I can carry on as if they were not there. I see cyclists acting like prats, do I carry on as I had (and had is the word) right of way. Of course not, I might shake my head, roll my eyes or if dangerously close wake them up with the horn to stop them hitting me (I've actually had people walk into me as I stopped at a red light on occasion). It's actually frightening if this were anything but a discussion.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,249 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Whatever you're talking about, it has nothing to do with the situation in hand. The OP had not 'passed by' the motorist in the clip posted; the motorist passed by the cyclist, having seen them and turned left across them.

    You're attempting to try to legally justify a left hook but are misapplying the law.


    Anyway, probably worth noting that of the two people involved in the clip, it was the cyclist who had enough wits about them to avoid a collision. The motorist had proceeded past the point they could have avoided it.



This discussion has been closed.
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